Polyface days---rant.....

I guess my feeling is that if someone has an opportunity to make a profit, regardless of whether it is from farming, or seminars, or books, more power to him. Even if for nothing else he is the "leader" of the locavore movement that may be more important than whether he is making money from farming or book sales. Also, if he is able to get college kids to work for free, why should he turn them away? That is running a business. If he had to pay those students then he would have to charge the consumer more for his products. Then people would be upset that he is charging too much for his products. I guess what I am saying is that profit is not a bad thing regardless of what venue it comes from.

I came into this forum much later than 2005, so, I wasn't aware that the JS subject was quite so polarized as that. I'm not particularily a fan of his style, though some of what he preaches is okay, such as livestock pasturing with paddocks and running chickens on the same. Running pigs in a woodlot and destroying its own natural ecology is a no-no with me, though. I did pay for his book, "Folks, This Ain't Normal" and got very tired of his ranting at page 159 of 364. Haven't picked it up since. He seems to enjoy chaining big word, hot button phrases together to make one point or another. I appreciate books that are chock full of positive ideas and useful sugestions, and I just didn't find that many in his book to warrant reading further. My opinion: other's may be different.

geo

thats what IM talking about. ...and expense isnt necessarily only about money. Money wise, my beef only costs me abuot $1 per pound, but I never go anywhere, or do anything except take care of the farm, 7 days a week, year after year after year. Well, not never, but very very seldom.

People choose their lives. Some choose to chase the dollar, buy junk food, and spend their money on leisure. Some choose to chase the dollar, and spend their money on good quality necessities. Very few choose to learn and live producing their own necessities while earning much less money.

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Max, you're a smart man.

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I'm surprised that there is so much dissension about Salatin as a farmer. I can understand people not liking his politics or religion, but he's a successful farmer, family man, advocate for farmer freedoms, and advocate for a way of life that I would think that most on HT would find appealing.

I and 1600 other people went to Salatin's Polyface Farm day this summer '11. As I've read this thread, I've been quite surprised by what people claim he says vs what I saw him speak for myself and have read in 4 of his books. He clearly says he's about sustainable, profitable small farms, not organics, not cheap food for the masses. He said he makes $2M gross from his farm each year and another $400K from off farm activities. He pastures as a supplement for the pigs and chix and makes no claim that grass displaces all his feed costs. Even the cattle get some nutritional supplements.

Much of his message is about marketing and I fully back that. I've been around farmers all my life who complained about the low prices they got, but I've never seen another farmer like Salatin who spends as much time and effort marketing. Most farmers are too afraid to market or they simply don't know how.

In my experience in the biz world, marketing is the real difference. The old saw, "build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door," is a huge lie. Lots of restaurants build a better burger, but it is lousy McDonalds that has the beaten path to its doors. I've been in and around many businesses that failed or thrived and it was marketing that made the difference.

I won't pay Salatin's prices for meat, but around my soon to be former home in northern VA, he trucks up $15 / pound steaks and other high priced foods produced on his and other nearby farms. I've been at biz meetings and overheard people talking about how great the food is and that they get deliveries once a month.

I don't put people down for finding a successful niche, I applaud it and try to learn from it.

We had a neighbor that taught JS walked on water. He followed his suggestions, spent all his time on the computer and reading books while instructing his wife and kids how to do what Salatin said to do. I've never read Salatin's books so I have no idea if he mentioned that there is a big difference in weather across the country. What works on the E coast, in an area with good rainfall doesn't work in eastern WA state with about 17" annually. If you don't live in an area where there are lots rich folks that are pretty silly, you are not going to sell $15.00 a pound meat--especially when it's against the law to sell it when it isn't inspected. When you insist on listening to someone who knows nothing about your situation, and not listening to area farmers or experts you end up with a real mess.

Our ex-neighbor destroyed what had been a good farm, lost it too foreclosure, and ended up divorced. I think the key to reading Salatin, or any other expert or self-appointed expert is to look for a good idea or two, that you can adept to your personal situation--not try to follow instructions to the letter.

Molly, that is a very good point that you make. The problem is people like your neighbor can not buy a book, and plan their business only on that information. Someone else pointed out talk to LOCAL farmers which is a no brainer, but many won't do it because they read a book. Check local markets to see what people are willing and able to pay BEFORE you plant that garden or raise the livestock. Failures such as this are the fault of the individual, not Polyface Farms. Another thing that bothered me was the bashing of JS because he inherited his farm. Think about every large farmer that you know and what percentage of them inherited the land, or at least some of it which got them started. Last year we bought 76 acres at $7,890 per acre, how many people can make that profitable if they had to buy that land, purchase, equipment, starting from nothing else? ZERO (I don't farm it, I rent it out) He is always up front about how he got his start, but people don't want think about that kind of stuff when they are dreaming about making their living like this. They worked very hard to make it into a successful farm, doing things the right way enviromentally, and JS gets ripped for being great businessman and marketing genious. I don't get some people!

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IOWA

Holy Lazarus threads, Batman!! This conversation is 7 years old. lol



To the resurrector's question: I neither love nor hate Salatin. I agree with the point that his success has been in selling the concept and methods of quality food production rather than in the production itself. I also agree with point that that success would not have been seen in western Kansas, for example.

However, I have found a lot of value in the ideas he's put forth. Keeping in mind, I'm coming from a large, commercial agricultural background. Ie, the smallest ranch I've ever lived/worked on was 800 head. Yet wanting to get our own place of some sort, that kind of scale isn't for beginners.
But I didn't know anything about how to run a small scale place...

Salatin's ideas and suggestions are valuable.

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Well, I can't say I've seen his audited financial reports, but I have to say I disagree that JS hasn't made a success of the production itself. I've seen his near 2000 laying hens, dozens of pastured poultry pens, rabbit, cattle, and hog operations and watched him say in front of about 1000 people that he grosses $2M from farm ops each year.

I've also met a dozen or more of his current and former apprentices, several of which have leased land near the JS farm so that they could replicate the JS method. After spending 6 months to a year working for next to nothing on the JS farm, you would think the apprentices would have learned to go in another direction if the production wasn't profitable.

The crux of the issue is that Joel Salatin is not a homesteader in the sense that most of us here are homesteaders. He does not pretend to be, but expectations on the part of readers and/or visitors to his farm may have their thought bubbles punctured.

Just because he talks about chickens, cattle, hogs, and bunnies, doesn't mean he fits our concept of "homesteader."

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Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

BINGO!

What Joel has done is great for him, he has a story to tell and the consumer is willing to pay for his story. They buy into the nostalgia.

Unfortunately that system won't feed the masses, the masses who are scraping by, who live in cities.

I have been there and liked what I saw. I do believe he uses organic feed.

As for the ground not being scratched up under the chickens, it should NOT be. If you move your rotational cages enough, they eat the bugs and seeds and fertilize the soil.

I have posted this before, but will do so again. I do NOT feed my chickens anything other than a few scraps from my kitchen from Spring to Winter. They get what they need from the pasture. No grain is needed. Even during the winter, my chickens are out foraging! They peck through the hay for bugs and seeds too.

I liked what I saw at Joels place. He had the pigs tilling an area when we were there. As for feeding the pigs grain, we raise feeder pigs, and we do too. You can buy natural or organic pig pellets and corn.

His books inspire people to do small time farming. To provide for their own families and maybe barter. They did me.

I regards to this type of farming not being sustainable for the masses I have a suggestion. Why not lower taxes by stopping the subsidies to give the illusion of cheap food. Also, our health care costs would probably be lower since we are not consuming the antibiotics and other junk pumped into our food. Couple this with educating the public on how to raise some of their own food then it suddenly looks more doable in my opinion. The illusion of cheap food is the problem, not that the food is actually cheap.

Factory homesteader?

I don't think Factory homesteader suits him at all.

He does not have chickens in a factory farmed operation, pigs or cattle. To call him anything with the word factory in it, which is something he hates with a passion is wrong on so many levels.

He is a business man and has made his $$ writing and producing food for people that can afford it. He has made people think about where their food comes from and in turn opened up opportunities for small scale homesteaders.

I think those that put him down have not been to his house, sat down at his table and talked to him.

He IS a homesteader at heart. Yes he raises food large scale now because of demand, but he still does it using methods that he writes about in his books.

Anyone that goes to his farm expecting tiny little coops with a couple of chickens happily pecking around, is going to be disappointed. Get your rose colored glasses off and see his farm for what it is. An old farmhouse and a working profitable farm.

Folk that have read his books or heard him speak, look to us smaller scale homesteaders, for meat, eggs and produce.

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately a massive house of cards has been built up to create the illusion that food is inexpensive. The average consumer doesn't realize that the cost of the food they buy at the grocery store isn't the real cost of producing it.

Removing the veil would be pretty ugly (even though I think it should be done).

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There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Well said O L F!!

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I understood from the books that Joel Salatin followed organic principles but had long become disenchanted with the organic movement which demanded expensive registration.
I have found much to inspire me in his books. From 'You can Farm', for instance, I gained the inspiration to just get on and do it from where I was at the time, not when I had the acreage and the farmhouse with roses round the door. I started growing and selling plants in half a borrowed polytunnel and selling hens eggs.We lived in a 1930s semi in a suburb at the time. I worked in a plant nursery for more experience and helped out at lambing on a local farm. After much scrimping and saving we now have a smallholding with sheep and loads of chickens (and one day we might even make some money!) but I might never have got started without Joel's book. It gave me the kick I needed to move from dreaming to doing.
I also learned a lot from Joel's ideas on marketing. Too many people can farm but can't sell to save their lives.

Actually, he argues just the opposite, that his system will feed the masses and I agree with him. Yes, it would take many thousands of family farms doing what he's doing, but what he does can be replicated, would be good for the family farms, consumers, the environment, and the economy. What's not to like?

Yes, he's going to make more profits because he is close enough to the Washington D(umb) C(ongress) suburbs that he can charge crazy prices. (the Virginia counties outside DC are the richest in the nation and have the lowest unemployment due to all the gov't jobs).

When you get right down to it, what he advocates is pretty simple. Don't spend money on imported farm inputs, costly broiler factory houses, or other infrastructure. Do take advantage of natural practices like rotational mob grazing that nourish the grasses, that nourish the cattle, that nourish the wallet. And don't wait for big ag to buy your products so that they can make all the profits when they sell to the end consumer but rather market yourself and your farm, add value when possible, and pocket more profits for yourself.