Polyface days---rant.....

I am gratefull that fin posted her figures for a small operation: that information can be hard to find.

The above feed converions appear to be much better than Joel's. From page 185 of Pastured Poultry Profits, "We raise Cornish Cross broilers to 8 weeks, genrally slaughtering on days 56, 57, 59 and 60, and get a carcass weight that averages 4 pounds. Feed conversion runs about 2 pounds of feed to 1 pound of liveweight, or 1 to 3 at carcass weight. Carcass weight averages about 75 percent of liveweight. Mortality averages about 5-10 percent."

I know I have seen tables of feed conversion by species of livestock, but can't find it now in any of my references.

Ken, my numbers are coming out very similar to fin's. I actually don't know how JS keeps the birds that small. I start harvesting on week 5, and take birds weekly from there in order to get people various sizes. My current batch of birds for example have been: at 5 weeks dressed birds were, 2.5-3.5 pounds, 3-4 at six, 3.5-5 at seven, and 4.5 to 6+ at eight. This week will be week 9, and I don't expect any birds under 5.5 pounds this week. When I take birds early I am culling any birds that look like they might be developing leg issues or are slower growers and a high percentage of the hens, thus fewer and fewer small birds each week. I was not able to get pellets as fin used to try that this time, but the birds to eight weeks have had less than 18 pounds of feed each, so I'm doing better than the 3/1 ratio (some of the feed was removed to use for turkeys, so I can't say how much better than 3/1 I've done on this batch). This was also my first try with Hubbard X's, a slight variation on the Cornish, and they seemed to perform very well.

__________________
I have to talk to my birds, they are more intelligent than most of the people I meet.

This is a great point, Ed. You would think that the University's would automatically take this approach, but for some reason that doesn't seem to be the case.
Are you going to try it?
Geez, if you do, don't post the results here... (much as we would all like to know what you find out - you would certainly be entitled to the royalties from YOUR book...)

http://www.midwesternbioag.com/specials/fieldday.htm

This was worth posting - a FREE FIELD DAY!

Free admission, free parking and a free meal (also hosted by a published author), and several seminar speakers! I take it as a real contrast.


Ed - If the commercial model doesn't suit you, don't use it. The point was, the information is plentiful and FREE - from many different sources to suit many different areas of the country, methods, models and farm acerages.
I don't have 500+ acres or even 50 to commit for broilers. Certainly your joking when you suggest you'd be better off following a JS model instead of looking at a multitude of professional sources - right?


Fin - Thanks! (I'm not trying to sound sarcastic when I say this). About 5400 birds to reach that $25,000 level @ $4.58 profit per bird, provided the market saturation point isn't reached, your prices hold up, the USDA leaves you alone, etc., etc.

I heard first hand, 'any idiot can sell 30 dozen eggs a week and claim a market and a fortune' (not exact, but close enough), then went on to talk about saturation of your market, which drives down your prices and increases your marketing costs - leaving you looking back at your operation for further cost cutting. Fin, I'm glad you made over $800, or at least have SOMETHING showing you're tracking expenses! That's real wisdom in action! Now start to multiply that about 30 times. ...that's a lot of work for ONE person, or two, or three, though.... (again, none of this was meant in a sarcastic tone, so please don't read it that way, if it's taken that way, I APOLOGIZE, I'm having trouble wording this!).


Ken S. - "...I cannot write off any of my own labor on the farm, only hired labor. And don't get me started on hired labor."

I can't write off mine, nor my family's labor as input costs either, I suppose the return would be in appreciation, inflation and/or the sale of the operation (heaven forbid!). JS has wisely adapted his operation for his land and labor.

Ken, by and large, hired help is skill-less, clue-less and usually, just looking for an escape from mom & dad, earn a little spending money or to become your inlaw!

minnikin1 - The university studies are there, with what you suggested and much more... just look around a little and make some phone calls. The research is there, and it's usually free for the asking. ...sorry, I'm not going to burn any more time digging for others, I already gave a nice assortment of links, at least one user here acknowledged checking one of them.

--------------

The descending costs of certified organic and a growing educated public, will strain profit margins and begin to erode the market for non-organic producers. IMO, certified organics will continue to drive the market - it's "the writing on the wall".

I urge everyone to do your research, make reasonable flexible plans, 'count the cost' ahead of time, and keep track of your expenses like FIN & GRHE. It hurts a little to fail or run in the RED - but, it really hurts to discover you're paying your market to consume your product ...

Finding a good tax/accountant is a blessing. He says we should be able to fire up the computer, and tell him EXACTLY where we are financially in less than 5 minutes - accounting, he calls it... what a concept, eh FIN? maybe it's a 'geek' thing...

... enough of this for me, MorrisonCorner - I wish I could afford hire you to "sell the quack instead of the duck!" ...or is it, I can't afford NOT to hire a good marketer....?

__________________
Bill

"Eggs from PD&H’s 80 laying hens go for $2.75/dozen--their one restaurant customer buys 30-60 dozen a week".

Thirty dozen eggs a week from 80 hens is 4.5 eggs per hen per week. Thats averaging better than an egg every other day, which is pretty good. But those 60 dozen weeks are what interest me, that's 9 eggs a week from each hen. They would have to lay an egg every day and two on Saturday and Sunday. Wow, I would love to have some hens like that, I wonder where I get can buy some?

The supermarket where I shop has just added natural eggs (from chickens fed only a vegetable diet) for $1.99 dozen. Size large. That compares to about $.87 a dozen for regular large. Egg case was about half empty of regular eggs, while it looked like few, if any, of the natural ones had been sold. Will be interesting to see how long they continue to carry them.

There might be a local market though for duck eggs for baking at that price. One bred of ducks (the Campbell 300 as I recall) does lay almost an egg a day.

'Tis not.

Actually I have found the information out there for SMALL commercial enterprises to be both scarce and hard to find.

DID I find it? Most certainly! But, most of it was in VERY old ag text books, and they were CERTAINLY not easy to find! Most of the good sources were in ag. books that were 80 years old.

What is on-line is mostly on a scale that is risky for beginners. This website is a rare exception, and ever HERE there is a shortage of costs and figures!

That is why Salatin's books sell, of course. He has very little competition from books that are now in print. The Salatin modes, as I said before, is flawed. Not every area has his costs and his selling prices.

STILL, he is giving out a great deal of info that IS pertinant! Things like death losses in a SMALL commercial flock, feed conversion for chickens that graze, building and costs of small structures to house them in, selling retail instead of wholesale, and such info is scattered and NOT easy to find.

Personally, I already had almost all of that info, but as I said, it took me MANY! years to find it!

Salatins books are not enough, NO book is enough! But it does give a starting point for a tiny producer, who will gain experience without a large financial risk. It teaches how to grow into a business, instead of taking a large and risky financial plunge.

Again, his models ARE flawed, he does not teach how to adjust for local conditions, but he is giving out info that is HARD to find!

Runners, you grew up with this stuff. The folks who benefit from Salatins books are the folks who are starting cold. One of the benefits of Salatins books is that they start by saying what they feed their chickens and HOW MUCH IT COST, say how they house their chickens AND HOW MUCH IT COST, how much they GOT for their chickens AND HOW THEY FOUND THEIR CUSTOMERS, and so forth.

That kind of info for 250 birds at a time are NOT! easy to find in ONE! spot!

I went to a very fine ag. college. I collected this kind of info for years before I was in a position to do anything about it. Yes, I DID find pretty much all of it, but it really WAS hard.

It is no surprise that beginners grab the Salatins book, because they are seeing some of his info for the first time. I suspect that you are irritated because he is teaching the obvious and making a big deal out of it. But, it is NOT obvious if you don't already know it.

Runners: I wasn't saying that Universities didn't do studies, I was curious as to why they are rarely side by side comparisons, as Ed described. Which is weird because its such a basic scientific model.
Wasn't really asking anyone to dig for links, so no need to feel sorry...

i just spent the last hour or so reading ALL the posts on the salatin matter. i heard him talk a few months ago and i confess, at first i was impressed but i got tired of his mis-using the term "paradigm" over an over again. during the break i sidled up to him to check him out up close. he had a pianist's hands (no calluses, very clean fingernails). i'm not a full-time farmer but i have calluses and the nuns would not consider my fingernails and cuticles quite "kosher" (to mix a metaphor). we did build a really neat chicken tractor - the dogs love to sleep in it while we wait for some chickens to arrive. i agree with all of you who say that js is selling a "concept". i borrowed his books from the library, other than the seminar fee, he's making no money off this old bird (the chow at the seminar was worth the price of the talk). here's what i really didn't like: during the q&a session i asked about liability insurance (people (visitors, interns) getting hurt while on his farm, people claiming to have bad reactions to the food they purchase from him) - first he stated that they have NO insurance and when i pushed a little harder, he stated that the farm was set up in such a way that their personal assets were protected from law suits (does that mean an s-corporation?). being sued, regrettably, is something all of us need to think about because we're putting everything we have on the line and according to my (state farm) insurance agent, regular homeowners' insurance does not cover us if we're doing business on the farm. i've heard horror stories about good people losing everything to jerks who must have read "how to sue your way to wealth" books.

The past several weeks local supermarkets have sold eggs for 33 to 50 cents per dozen (on special). Chicken in 10 pound packages at 50 cents a pound. So we know that there is a difference, but can we justify $2.75 Doz. eggs or $4.50 chicken as anything other than a yuppie novelty market? It is certain that the public can't tell the difference at the cash register.

While someone is explaing, why not explain how anybody makes any money on eggs @ 3 Doz./ $1. (Krogers southern Ohio).

Well, if you're really looking for an answer about the
cheap prices and not just making comment...things
are usually reduced when there's a glut. If their
storage facilities are backing up, out it goes for not
much more than it costs them to raise it all.

And while we're delighting over the *cheap food* prices,
they're sticking the difference onto everything else they
can.

I'm all for the best food at the best price, as long as our
health and environment don't suffer. Seems like we
patronize the doctor less when we strive to consume more
wholesome foods. Frankly, we can't afford *cheap food*.

Items such as eggs are often used as loss-leaders. They are intentional sold at a reduce price (somethings at or less than wholesale) to get you into the store. Notice they are often about as far away from the cash registers as they can be located so you have to walk by those other goodies. How often have you gone in to just buy one item (say eggs) and checked out a cart-full of other items?

I either read or heard Joel Salatin has either sold Polyface Farm to his son or his son is now in charge of day-to-day operations with Joel being semi-retired to speak and write.

Just wondering if this online community is still as polarized regarding Joel Salatin as they were in 2005 when this post originated. I came across this and was wondering what your thoughts were with his new book out and if he is still a "love em or hate em" type of guy for you all?

Correction: There are not any animal byproducts in cattle feed. That was outlawed back when we had the first Mad Cow outbreaks in England. You can still get animal parts in dog feed.

Dang, didn't know there was any 6 year old posts left.

__________________
馬鹿は死ななきゃ治らない。(Baka wa shinanakya naoranai) Can't fix stupid.
四面楚歌 (Seiko udoku) Farm when it's sunny, read when it rains.
知らぬが仏 (Shiranu ga hotoke) Ignorance is bliss.

Anyone remember Helen and Scott Nearing? They had all the back-to-the-land gardening answers back in the 1970s. Wrots a few books and went on speaking tours.
They advised no animals, just gardens. They built stone walls around their garden. Promoted as self-sufficient.
Made most of their money on their books and speakng tours. They were so popular, people would stop by to see them at work. Suprise. They had it all set up that visiters would learn by doing. They had visitors weeding their garden every day. They'd offer a bowl of veg. soup and that was it. Anyone could garden with fresh free help every day.

I try to learn as much as I can. Seems like I spend a lot of time dispelling myths, too.
Commercial chicken doesn't have antibiotics or growth hormones, never did. Nice marketing to say yours is antibiotic-free or growth hormone-free, but on those points you are the same as commercial chicken.



Kroger has a card that regular shopers can use to get points towards free groceries. They use it to track shopping trends. A while back they sold grass fed beef. Seems there was an interest in it, so they were filling that market. There data showed that lots of different people bought grass fed beef, almost no customer bought it a second time.

Joel proves that marketing is vital to small farming. Kroger proves that you'd better get a steady stream of new customers if you plan to market grass fed beef.

South of Ionia, there is a huge "egg factory" with millions of hens. They are smart marketers. When folks paid extra for brown eggs, they had hens to fill that demand. When people wanted eggs from vegetarian hens, they had them. A couple years ago, free range got popular, they had open floor laying houses with an access door so the hens could go outside if they wanted. Most didn't, but it still fit the term free-range. Now people want cage free birds. So they have them. They are pricy, because hens sometimes lay their eggs on the floor and it costs more to hand gather them and get the chicken poop off of them.

I'm really glad this thread got resurrected. Very inspiring, all the comments. Makes me think of the whole thing differently--homesteading, making a living on the place, etc. Thanks to Mosherd 1.
PCP

I do respectfully point out that this is indirectly incorrect. You cannot feed cattle to cattle here... But you can feed cattle to chickens, and then feed the chicken feces & feathers back to the cattle. There is also the risk of cross-contamination at feed mills, where machines are used to mix food for chickens or pigs, for example, and then switch over to mixing cattle feed. Which is why many other countries who have strong laws regarding BSE do not allow the importation of US beef. Our laws have loopholes that make the animals we're eating potentially unsafe, and yet our government continues to tell us all how wonderfully safe our food is. Ridiculous.

All of the above.

I'm pleased to be mentioned in his book "You Can Farm". Well, actually flattered.

He is a natural-born salesman. You buy into his concept. What may work for one, doesn't for another.

I understand he has largely turned over Polyface Farm operations to his son.