Polyface days---rant.....

I wasn't even going to respond to this because I believe that "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I'm probably gonna wish I'd stayed out of it, but here goes.

Those of you who dislike Joel are probably going to continue disliking him no matter what anyone says. The thing is he made money from farming first. Then people wanted to find out how he did it and see if they could do something similar. That created a demand on his time. Time is subject to the laws of supply and demand just like anything else. Now he gets paid well for his time. There are apparently enough people that feel he has something to offer to provide quite a large income. If you think he is just selling smoke and mirrors, then don't buy his books and don't go hear him speak. If you'd like to have that income, become an expert at something and learn to market yourself.

As far as being organinc or sustainable, he has never made that claim. In fact in everything I've read he specifically points out that he is not organic and doesn't market that way. He intentionally buys feeder pigs from a local farmer instead of raising his own. He buys his feed (yes it's a custom mix, they'll do that for anyone if you buy a large enough quantity) from a local feed mill. And he has stated repeatedly that he owes a large part of his success to the fact that his mom and dad had already paid for the farm. He makes no bones about it.

As for selling the experience at his field days, what's the difference in what he does and a pumpkin farm or a petting zoo? There are people who want that experience and are willing to pay for it.

"Ken - Um...Just to protect you a little from potential dissapointment ...the peak of the market for blacksmithing equipment might have passed a little while ago."

No-lo-contrair - or whatever. There is still a growing interest in blacksmithing. But I will point out I do not service the profession (make a living at it) market. My market is the beginner or hobbiest who doesn't yet need professional-grade tools and my sales venue is almost strictly eBay. At the moment I'm on a pace to about double my sales of blacksmithing-related items over 04. I keep waiting for the pace to fall off, and expected it to with the hot weather, but so far it hasn't (although July will likely be off pace a bit). I am direct marketing to a nitch market, basically the same as Joel. (Not a sales pitch, but if you want to take a look I am eBay seller scharabo.)

Something to bear in mind, how many of those who attended were basically making a pilgrimage to Polyface Farm? I suspect Joel gave out more than 1,200 handshakes and likely had way more than that photographs taken of him. I rather suspect few came away totally disappointed.

Well here is one of the victims that bought Joel's snake oil.

http://www.ssawg.org/mcgehee.html

the poor bastard....


J

Yep, poor sap!

Since one of the four faces of Polyface Farm is fish, image this guy's reading in one of Joel's books about raising fish in the pond (for sale) and using the waste enriched water as irrigation fertilizer.

Note the article said 'inspired by', not necessarily following Joel's books.

On restaurant eggs, I think it was at one conference Joel said he sold eggs for $1.00 dozen to a couple of area restaurants at one time - when they could buy regular wholesale eggs at $.50 dozen. What Joel did was to have some table folder advertisements made up saying the customer could order 'farm fresh eggs' for $.25 per egg extra. 12 x $.25 is $3.00 over the cost of the eggs already built into the breakfast price.

Ed - "The meat tastes bad because "garbage in garbage out?" Could it be possible that my moms best recipe with her freshest best ingredients might taste different if she prepared it for 1200 people? To be fair I think we would have to buy his meats and prepare them at home in our favorite way before we could comment on how they taste. (I haven't done this)"

Funny you would mention this. I have had conversations with CHEFS (not short order cooks) that have tried Salatin's chickens and beef - as I implied in my previous post, 'average at best, if not substandard quality'. Cooking for hundreds of people myself, made to order as well as bulk preparation - and it's a real PAIN to doctor up a dish because the main ingredients are lacking. I love to cook as a hobby, and my kitchen kinda reflects it.

I was raised on goat milk. It's pretty good... so long as the goats ate alfalfa, timothy, clover or something that produces the sweet, creamy flavor. The days they got into weeds - the milk was horrible! Same went for the beeves we raised, again on alfalfa & timothy, the meat was excellent and lean. If my largely untrained taste buds can tell the difference in milk & meat - imagine how a real chef reacts when he compares food from different sources.

We raised LOTS of animals on our farm as I grew up. My brother still runs the farm - SUCCESSFULLY and makes his living FARMING - just like I can. My experience reminds me of the AG agents that came into our area and encouraged every farmer to double or triple the farm, buy new equipment, expand, expand, and go into DEBT in the '60s. In the late '70s, many of those farmers started selling off acreage, thanks to Jimmy Carter's economy of double digit inflation, double digit interest rates and soaring gas prices.

This same idealistic hype the AG agents presented - spend, spend, grow, grow & DEBT = success & freedom! Sounds so much like "YOU CAN xxxx" or "EARN $$$$ doing xxxx" books. I'm GLAD I have 24 years of growing up on a WORKING FARM with REAL FARMERS for neighbors. Times were different back then - we all worked together on eachother's farms. Ie., While driving by, if we saw hay was down, the neighbor was baling like crazy, and the rain was coming, we pulled over and helped get it put up! Kinda hard to help now days with round balers...
Yeah, I'm very skeptical of Salatin, just like I am of AG agents - talk is cheap, seminars & books aren't, and I'm not a fool to miss where either one of these guys get their income. It ISN'T from FARMING!

Morrisoncorner - "...Unfortunately, the world is full of people who will tell you that it is all "your fault" when the venture fails. My inn owners should have "known" that what they were being told was a lie. Now... if they had no previous experience in innkeeping and were relying on 'professionals' to assist them... how could they have known? I have clients who have started small businesses because government agencies staffed by well meaning but less than fully qualified people insisted they had a great idea without bothering to do any research on either the market or the financing behind the idea. When the businesses got in trouble or overextended the "professionals" were all sympathy, but, naturally, the disaster wasn't their "fault," was it?..."

An EXCELLENT summary of what happened in the 1970s. The USDA and the AG agents created an unsustainable & false economy which relied on PRICE SUPPORTS to keep the farmers in business. When the "lights out" Carter economy took hold - all those deeply indebted farmers were stupid and should have known better! - or, did they get SUCKERED into something they couldn't handle??? ...hey, folks, they LOST the whole farm!


Most farm kids I grew up with, had that taste for some kind of "dirt" and get drawn back to it. You can look at the fields and visualize corn, oats, beans or alfalfa standing everywhere - gently swaying in the breeze. Maybe it's dairy, beeves, hogs, poultry - they just seem to long for the love/hate relationship of the farm. "We" like to work without our hands, and don't complain about the aches and pains, the scars or the little pot belly we carry around. Our wives look up to us with pride and reassurance, no matter how bad it gets, we're still real men, literally bringing home the bacon for the next meal. We walk in the door, manure, chaf & dust, and they still plant a big kiss on our cheek and speak affectionatly to us. I hate to say it, but few farmers are made - most are raised, (and some actually go to Virginia Tech!).

http://www.ext.vt.edu/resources/
Everything USEFUL you get from costly BOOKS and SEMINARS on farming, hobby farming, etc., can be gotten FREE at this website.

You'll find how to actual BUDGETS, record keeping, feed requirements, feed conversion ratios, basic animal husbandry, articles on machinery & farm safety, BIO-SECURITY (something EVERYONE needs to read), time managment, buildings, etc. - ALL FREE! ...and overall, unbiased. These are the results of YOUR TAX DOLLARS - some real useful information.


Unlike the book writers that curiously OMIT leaving ACTUAL numbers out of their books (other than $25,000 net), some of us can accurately account for hatching, brooding, growing & finishing costs (poultry). Feed lot or free range, we know what to expect IF certain crop & environmental conditions exist with specific types of livestock. It's not a slam-dunk, everwhere you turn around there's a buck to be had - that's not reality.

An example: Everyone thinks they can get into selling eggs for profit. Somehow, they forget the cost of the chicken, feed, cartons, facilities/housing, water and LABOR. Yet, these poor kids think they can feed a chicken for $.10 per day, clean & package a dozen for $.20 and market & sell for $1.00 to earn money for college! And how much is your LABOR worth? Time to start selling eggs for $30 a dozen - and shelve the idealistic nonsense!


I'd like to challenge every homesteader here to start keeping actual expense records for you products. You're a fool if you're not actively counting the cost! ...Then add in your labor.
We keep track of every duck egg they lay, every pound of feed, facilities/housing, electricity, water, gas/mileage to market, etc.. I know it takes 38KWH per month for a Sportsman 1502 incubator. I the first $45 from the farmers market is for expenses.

The "YOU CAN xxx" books are titled as BAIT - so you'll buy their books! [I] This gives the impression that if you buy this book, you'll be doing the SAME thing - what are you gonna do if you can? Take the book back and demand a refund!? Demand one from Joel Salatin? (...you failed, remember... but, if he REALLY meant it, he'd refund your money - then he could justifiably call you a failure!) On the otherhand, if you believe as I do, Joel Salatin is marketing a concept, a business idea (without a balance sheet), you should be skeptical... with or without hard numbers. The "experience" these writers promise is emptying your wallet with their idealistic nonsense couched in strawman arguements, catchy names and divisiveness.


...and that's MY opinion, I'm not the expert, nor the pied piper of pastured production. Do yourselves a favor and use the online educational databases.

http://www.uwex.edu/ces/animalscience/
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/AgFood/
http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/
http://www.engr.uga.edu/service/extension/ventilation/
http://www.msue.msu.edu/portal/
http://poultry.cas.psu.edu/
http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/poultry/
http://www.asrc.agri.missouri.edu/poultry/index.htm

...just a few, there are many more.

__________________
Bill

Beautifully said... with resources!

The article ends with the following:

Current income is not yet up to the level they’d like, but it is pretty dependable, and, says Don, “We’re looking at every way we can to make this farm a successful business.”

In short... they are NOT successful yet. They have a dependable cash flow. Dependable cash flow is NOT profit. You can have wonderfully dependable cash flow, and still be forced into bankruptcy.

They hope what they're doing will put their farm on a paying basis, they have a business plan, and they're working very hard. But they are not, yet, necessarily profitable. And it would appear from the contents of the article that one or both of the couple work off farm, and have been working off farm for most of their married life.

This thread really has legs. I've read only two of Salatin's books, "Salad Bar Beef" AND "You Can Farm." I think some of the stuff on marketing is pretty insightful (I am a traditional farmer who had 40 years in before reading his books.) That said, there's some stuff that he says that is off-the-mark or just plain BS. I said that on here a couple years back and some people really got their feathers ruffled. So be it. Like others said, he's got a philosophy and a system; it's one of many. Borrow what you think will work for you and leave the rest. There's lots of other sources of info; as Runners pointed out, and there is no substitute for talking to other farmers.

Still don't understand what's wrong with someone who works off the farm. My wife and I don't, but a lot of the younger farmers around here do.

__________________
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity." Gen. George S. Patton Jr.

Milkstoolcowboy, I agree--nothing wrong with working off the farm. DH says we're getting the same price for our milk that our fathers got back in the '70's. The financial wiggle-room that my off-farm job provides is well worth it to me, and helps ensure that we can continue the dairy farming lifestyle that we enjoy. While DH is the real farmer in the family, I like to explore alternative enterprises, even if they're just hobby enterprises. I've read one of Salatin's books, and I thought it was very interesting. It makes you think of other possibilities, other markets. Must admit that I even got some enjoyment listening to DH tell my why all that was just BS...

An EXCELLENT summary of what happened in the 1970s. The USDA and the AG agents created an unsustainable & false economy which relied on PRICE SUPPORTS to keep the farmers in business. When the "lights out" Carter economy took hold - all those deeply indebted farmers were stupid and should have known better! - or, did they get SUCKERED into something they couldn't handle??? ...hey, folks, they LOST the whole farm!
.................................................. ...........................

OK, I went to Cal Poly in the 70's to study Animal Science. This si what they taught that was USEFULL!

They did a good job with bookeeping, debt management, choosing the right size and kind of machinery for your operation, hands-on work with animals, pricing your product, economics and WHY the cattle prices tended to go in a 10-year cycle, and ecology.

PROBLEMS with the curriculum.....every model assumed that you started out with, for example, a modern chicken house with 5,000 birds, automatic feeders, and so forth, and sold wholesale.


What Joel Salatin teaches that is USEFULL.....Working models of small-scale enterprises, practical instruction on how to build up the business into something usefull, and *marketing*. He also gives some warnings about what NOT to do, that look pretty solid. Like, find the market before you raise the product.

PROBLEMS with the Joel Salatin approach.......most of us cannot demand $2.50 a pound for chickens and get it, and so we must re-do the finances top to bottom.

My OWN approach is to take the best from the first, and the best from the second, and work things out on paper before I do anything else. THEN, I start on a TINY scale for experience and edibles. A family of 5 can soak up a lot of edibles, too. Then, *IF* everything looks good, I start marketing it. THEN, my plan was to figure the return per hour, decide how many hours I could put into it for a decent return, and expand into something commercial.

Alas, I was just into the marketing the excess stage last year, when my health went into the tubes. I made some profit, but THIS year I was hoping for some USEFULL money!

Better luck next year, I hope, though I am producing enough to keep supplying the Farmers MArketer who sells my goods. Not quite as much as last year, though.

SO, take what I say with a grain of salt. I am earning a profit, but not an income. Yet. On paper things look EXCELLENT, even when you allow for a loss from weather and predators and disease. The only question for me, is, will I be able to work outside?

I will know next year. Wish me luck.

And, oh, yes. Those look like good web sites, thatk you. I will enjoy reading them.

Well, I guess it boils down to the fact that I'm a big boob who read the
$25,000 snake oil book with real hope/expectations.
I sat in my windowless office at my supposedly "successful" job and that book cover was on my lunch box and I couldn't keep my eyes off of it! I was a like a jailbird and that book seemed to be the file in a cake.
A Rubber file.

I went to the Attra site in search of a decent plan to build a pasture pen (hmmm, not included in Salatin's book?!) Attra had followed several families who were attempting this venture. Attra also provided all the details of their operations AND THE MATH....
Profits? A few lucky ones were making something like 7 cents an hour.

OK, so they Fooled me once...
I'm happy to admit it if I can warn any newbies out there who were considering spending some of that limited homestead cash on one of his books...

Someone mentioned Gene Logsdon.
Here is the contrast to Salatin, in my opinion. Logsdon motivates me, I learn from him--

and his titles don't deceive people.

Yep.

Prices vary according to local conditions, as do costs.

Back when things were looking bright, I could pick 1 gallon of blackberries an hour, and sell them at $2 a pint. Some places, where blackberries do not grow like weeds, get MUCH! more! But, for my area, $2 a pint was fine. Blackberries are common in my area.

Let's see, now, at $2 a pint, that is $16 an hour gross return for picking, BUT! there is also the time I spend caring for the plants. I spend as much time pruning as I do picking. Call it $8 an hour return for the year. I sold to just one customer, a baker, so there was really no time spent for marketing.

There was virtually no input, also, because I fertilized with chicken litter. You can do that if you spread it thin.

The return was not great, but interesting enough for me to think about planting more berries.....THORNLESS ones to speed up the picking and scratch me less!

Things change. I cannot pick as much, but I am now getting $2.50 a pint due to inflation. I am keeping this one going because I have hopes of expanding NEXT year. With luck, I can locate suitable plants this fall, as the nursery blew my order this spring.

***What I am trying to say is, I don't care WHO is giving the numbers, figure the costs and prices and labor for your area! NOTHING else will be accurate!***

Minni,

For you the excitement of hoping and yearning about a different way to make a living turned to disappointment when you researched information from different sources. I don't think that makes you a "Big Boob". I give you high marks for doing a thorough research job before plunging totally into something. You feel you wasted $30 for the book and that entitles you to advise others accordingly. I've got no problem with that. I really identify with the feeling you describe in reading the book and excitedly planning your jailbreak.

Where I get "my back up" is when Morrison Corners says in quotes below

"You know... I think this is why I have such a problem with the Polyface thing... the man has a farm, yes, but his primary source of income is not in producing "good food" but in selling the concept of producing good food. Which means, brass tacks, that he really doesn't have anything worthwhile to contribute to the nuts and bolts of running a farm"

To me and I think to many others, Salatin does have worthwhile things to contribute to the "nuts and bolts of running a farm". The fact that he makes make more money selling the concept of producing "good food" than he does by producing "good food" is not bothersome to me.

I wish I had a father like Bluduk describes who knows so much about farming but I don't... so I have to learn from books. I recognize that in many cases the best farmer may have not have been the best marketer or the best author so all books (as well as learning from real farmers) will have limitations.

One of my favorite farm books is the now out of print "Farmer's Progress" by George Henderson. You can view in Steve Solomon's Soil and Health Library website. Henderson beautifully describes his struggles and pleasures of making a living on a farm in England from the early 1900's till the 1950's. If I were ambitious enough to translate all of the currency exchanges and factor in the inflation I'm not sure that what he describes could make the living that Henderson claimed it did or even that it could have made what he claimed at the time it was written. It is however a beautiful description of a life I would very much like to live and obviously gives the author great pleasure. I've gained a lot of useful information from it and I feel I'm better prepared for whatever farming endeavors I take up because I've read it.

I'm sorry that the tool you thought was important for your jailbreak turned out to be a rubber file.

I put myself in the "jail" I find myself in now by paying lots of money for tuition and books to go to school for my current profession. When I dream of my escape I try to remember that the bookseller, snake oil salesman who didn't spring me this time doesn't own more responsibility for why I'm here than I do.

GOOD GRIEF!!! I have been away from this forum for a week and come late to this thread. I have had a five acre farm. Prior to that, I was a Certified Financial Planner. I did not have Joel's books. I ran out of money and energy and now live on two suburban acres with my DD and GD (3 girls). We live here cooperatively. I am 71 yo and am developing a small backyard nursery. I will raise chickens and rabbits. I spent the first three years here grieving my "failure" and analyzing the successes and failures on my little farm. I mention these things as background for the things I want to add to this discussion.

I attended this year's field day. I cannot recognize it in the posts here. Are you sure we attended the same event? I loved it, got some good ideas that are going to save me money , believe the meat did taste better, enjoyed a beautiful day in the sun, and NEVER heard a negative word all day long.

I hardly know where to start--

First: We live in the USA which has a capitalistic economy. This is based on the operations of market forces of supply and demand. i.e., buy low, produce, market and sell high. Cost too much to produce, don't market, set price too high, etc. and no product gets sold. You either have to market more or cut costs of production in order to make a profit. You can only charge what the market will bear, no matter how attractive the product. If you are honest about your record keeping, you either will or will not be in business.

To start a business, gather information, preferably from those who are successful. This may take the form of books and videos, or directly from the farmer, or from schools where experience is limited at best.

THE ONLY REASON TO GO INTO BUSINESS IS TO MAKE A PROFIT. Profit is NOT a dirty word. Your profit pays your rent. If there is any left over, you get to keep it for whatever legal purpose you want. You may not be motivated by the desire for a profit, but if you don't have a profit, you have a money-pit. Keep losing money long enough, and you will lose your farm, no matter how much you appreciate the lifestyle, scenery, etc. Yes, you do derive benefit from good surroundings, good community, etc., but you cannot pay the rent with lifestyle or scenery. Farming is as much a business as producing cars is.

Farms make a total profit by having many profit points. Chickens, beef, pigs, rabbits, books, and speaking happen to be the Salatin Farms profit points. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT? While one may enjoy the animals, if they don't pay, you have pets. How many pets can one afford?

I don't know where this idea came from that profits are bad, that I can be conned, that I have to be taken care of and protected, that I cannot think for myself, etc. The only person that can con me is me, myself. If I don't really understand the model I am using, if I have not done my own research, if I am unwilling to work as hard , if I don't adjust the details to fit my property, ideals, personality, etc., I am doomed. That is NOT the fault of the person sharing his knowledge and experience. How is his sharing of that knowledge and experience for compensation different from the $350/hour lawyer using his knowledge, etc? Why is it wrong to make money from one's knowledge and experience? He wouldn't be sharing it if people had not created the demand. He is a success because he still has the farm, his family is supported, healthy, educated. What he has in the bank is NONE of my business. He provided me with a product that satisfied me. That is all that counts. I don't need to see his books. It is easy enough when you are on the property to see healthy people, healthy animals, and healthy grass. I hardly call this snake oil.

They started out with a family farm. Joel, Theresa, and Daniel are continuing with that concept, and now there is a GS and the line continues. They did not start out with a bundle. Every thing he has today, he's paid for in learning and hard work. That includes the inherited farm (for which he had to compensate the other heirs ). If one cannot pay the taxes, one doesn't keep the farm. He probably spends as much time learning as he does working the ground. I believe he has a degree in Journalism and therefore knows how to research. He has an extensive library, and has turned all he knows into a profitable enterprise, having enough knowledge and native intellect to solve the problems he encounters. His solutions are usually quite elegant and have more than one benefit. He has cut man hours from his production model which is another way of saying he has cut expenses. I think the early years were pretty nip and tuck for awhile. If anyone thinks he/she is going to start out where Joel is today is grossly fooling himself. There's 30 years of very hard work there.

Joel started out marketing by speaking to small groups in his locality. He quickly learned from questions, answers, and comments what would work and what wouldn't. He developed a slide show--IN RESPONSE--to what the audiences wanted. He finally wrote a book answering those questions and comments. He was asked to speak at farm trade shows. This created more demand. People started showing up at the farm (he is very generous with his farm--more later). If he was to get any work done, he had to set up field days. If this is anything other than meeting a demand, I can't imagine what it is.

One of the business things one learns is that time equals money. Waste one, sacrifice the other. He set a fee for his time and determined if that fee was not met, he could not do whatever was proposed. This applies to all the workers on the farm. The question one always needs to ask is,"Is what I want to do going to benefit or waste my time? Does this add to my production or take it away?" This is not a fault; it's good business.

I have not heard or read of Joel Salatin promising anything. He has told what works, for him and his family. He has also shared many of his beliefs, as they are the foundation to what he is accomplishing on the property. Keep in mind, the family goal is not to get rich, not to farm, not to a lot of things. It is to build and keep a family farm to pass on to the succeeding family. It is to make the least impact on the earth and to grow as close to nature as possible. I think he would be appalled to think that someone would go out and slavishly copy him. He believes that each of us has to put our own knowledge and experience and yes, love, to our farm.

No one should think for a moment that he is just sitting around loafing. Far from it! He is working all the time! Example: the Pigerator. Someone is out there every day during the winter spreading the bedding and tossing the corn. Someone is moving the pigs in to turn the bedding. Someone has to move those pigs out, shovel off the top 2' of composted bedding, and move the pigs back in for the last two feet. That compost covers about one half of the fields each year. Someone has to spread it. Water has to be made available to the animals daily.

Someone had to make the hay to fill the barns to feed the cows to feed the pigs. Someone has to know enough to correctly analyze the condition of the pasture to use it most efficiently, Someone had to keep the records for the breeding program to get the cattle to eat the hay, etc. Someone gets out there every day and moves many chickens and cows from pasture to pasture. Someone makes sure they have the feed and water they need. He is still doing this. The demand for his beef is so great that he has rented four more farms. Each farm requires the same laying out of fence, water lines, etc. Folks, if his meat didn't satisfy the customers, he wouldn't be in business today.

There are several things that deserve mention. One of the first things he said was that this model will only work on 50 acres or more. That does not sound like snake oil at all. He welcomed us all to go anywhere (except his personal house) on the farm, photograph anything, measure anything, "I have nothing to hide." His "extensive" machinery consists of his tractor (I don't know the age), a hay rake, a frontend loader, a baler, a manure spreader, all of vintage age. He has a fairly modern bandsaw to cut lumber with. He has used his own lumber for all the building on the farm. His son felled the timber, milled the lumber, and built his own house. He (D) also built a new barn. His friends and neighbors brought their tractors to help Joel. He certainly doesn't own 10 tractors. He did not sell books; Acres, USA, (the sponsor) did. He did make his meat product available, but did not make a huge sales pitch for it. There were several vendors there--again in response to the hundred million questions Joel has gotten on his sources and supplies. This was a convenience to me.

I thought the entire day was wonderfully organized. Joel was "on" for the entire day from 6 am to past 6 pm. Try that sometime--it's exhausting. Everyone was friendly, knowledgeable, and helpful. I'll bet there were at least 50 if not more, helpers there. If anyone wanted more answers, all they had to do was ask. I had no trouble asking several myself. I had no complaints and heard none. I suspect many just found the uncomplicated methods unbelievable. Hey, don't knock it til you've tried it. I found myself grinning all day long and would recommend the field day to anyone interested in making a profit on their farm.

__________________
Best wishes,

Sandi

"Anger is an acid that does more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to the object on which it is poured." Corrie TenBoom

I recall reading somewhere one of Joel's criteria for continuing an enterprise is whether or not it will return at least $20 per labor hour. If it doesn't, and can be made to, such as improved efficiency, then it is dropped.

Added: Diversification is nothing particularly new. When we were on one dairy farm near Slinger, WI in the early 1950s I remember chickens (with the eggs picked up by a buyer on a regular basis), sheep (likely for lambs), hogs (a stable for dairies at that time), newborn calves sold to a veal producer and my parents growing sugar beets for a local seasonal processor. Other cash crops I remember in the area were pickles, peas, beans and cabbage (sold to local seasonal processors). Even then for other than planting and harvesting seasons Dad carpooled with other local dairy farmers into Milwaukee to work the night shift at a factory. Mom later said much of the labor at season processing plants were farm wives.

are you a detective?

__________________
"I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people, that have set themselves against me round about." -- Psalm 3:6, KJV

Freedom Advocates: Recognize Unalienable Rights

hmmm... possibly.

__________________
Check us out out "The Modern Homestead", a small, helpful, friendly forum. Find us at "The Modern Homestead", on facebook too!

I was wondering if you were going to chime in. Thanks for your perspective. For those who don't frequent the poultry board, Fin has been real helpful and can teach a thing or two from her experiences!

__________________
Check us out out "The Modern Homestead", a small, helpful, friendly forum. Find us at "The Modern Homestead", on facebook too!

Sorry for the delay...I was busy having a baby last week...

<--me

Well said, fin.