Polyface days---rant.....

Amen to that Jenn! And I hope you buy my book whenever it is published someday lol

Beaux

Some of you just sound like you're jealous of Mr. Salatin.

no. I'm not jealous.

This guy is a fraud. Listening to him speak, you realize that he cynically views the public the way a carny views the public....marks to be milked of cash.

His talk of low input is nonsense, the equipment he uses is phenomenally expensive and usually donated for the push he gives the product.

I am disappointed because I thought I was going to learn something and what I learned had nothing to do with livestock farming and everything to do with used car salesmanship.

Salatins books and videos cost about $25 or $30. I have 3 books and a video. I've also seen him speak twice at farm field days (free events). I feel well satisfied that I've got my moneys worth out of his literature. I've paid upwards of $75 for college textbooks that I got no value from whatsoever. If I didn't find books like Salatin's on Pastured Poultry or Andy Lee's chicken tractor I probably never would have started raising 25 chickens for my own use in movable pens. I think my family is richer in pleasure if not money by having those chickens.

1) We're more connected to a source of our food.
2) We're in touch with the life and death responsibility of care for living creatures
3) We're improving our soil in the garden and making use of manure as a fertility enhancer not a waste byproduct

I know that reading farming books on conventional poultry production wouldn't have drawn me in to that.

To those of you who seem upset that Salatin makes money writing books please write one yourselves. I'll probably buy it and I bet if you've written it well I'll find something worth it's purchase price in it. It's not very difficult to make a $30 mistake when raising livestock and I'm grateful to an author who can help me avoid one. Whether or not you are exactly who you claim you are or if your income comes from the sources that I approve of, or if your farm labor comes from willing apprentices, I'll still appreciate information from someone who's had the dirt under their fingernails.

Am I making $25,000 per year on my pastured poultry enterprise? NO. Could I? I doubt it because I'm nowhere the enthusiastic salesman that Joel is.

Salatin is in business to make money, not to be self-sufficient, and he is quite successful at it. He created a product, marketed the hell out of it and the people who buy it are happy to spend the money because they like the product. This may not work in many rural areas, but it works amazingly well in the DC/NOVA area where 99.9% of the people have no experience with raising fresh farm meats, but do have lots of disposable cash to drop. They like the taste, they like the idea of sustainability, they like the experience. His customers are thrilled to buy his product.

I thought he made it very clear in his articles that he is not just selling meats. He is selling a concept, an experience, an idea. City/suburbanites love to see the family farm. It's nostalgic and happy and reeks of the simple life they don't have. It makes them feel good to go there and buy their meats. The taste really is better than supermarket meats, so they keep coming back. Are the prices high? Maybe, but certainly not for his market. The best quote I have heard from him is that it is easier to find 100 customers who will spend $1,000 than it is to find 1,000 customers who will spend $100. So he prices high, which adds to the perception of high-end, high quality products. His target market is used to this idea, and readily accept it.

As for his methods of raising - I like them. The equipment is not expensive for the use and return you get and can certainly be modified to cut down cost (which is what we do). Minimal use of big, expensive machinery. The moveable pens allow the pasture to rest and be fertilized without destroying it. The grass does cut down on feed costs for chickns, have not tried pigs yet. I do not believe he has ever claimed to be organic, nor does he market that way. Open air, grass-fed, no factory farming is his hook. Its what he does and what he markets.

I read several of his books and have problems with a few things. #1 - he didn't have to pay for his farm. No mortgage makes a big difference. #2 - starting farmers need to be young. Gotta disagree there.

However, he does what most farmers are unable or afraid or loath to do - is agressive marketing of his product. Face it, most people are pretty ignorant. People will believe something if you tell them often enough and with enough enthusiasm (politics, religion, Amway). I have people tell me they will only buy brown eggs because they taste so much better than white eggs. Really? Okay, now my brown eggs are now $1 more than white because "they taste so much better." His methods are a part of his success, but they are pretty basic stuff and been done by others. The best advice he has going is marketing and diversification of product. That is the genius of Joel Salatin's way.

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Actually, your enthusiasm has little to do with it... those numbers had to be recanted. I could look up the source, but it happened several years ago.

Any book on "small farming for fun and profit," be it "square foot gardening" or our buddy Joel here will tell you you have to market the bejesus out of yourself... and what you're selling is not fresh herbs, lettuce, or happy chicken carcasses, but The Experience.

A good sales and marketing professional has a shelf-load of books on the topic of sales and marketing, much of which boil down to "Don't sell the steak... sell the sizzle." from the advertising maven David Ogilvy. And I'd like to recommend that before anyone buys another "how to farm" type book they invest in "Selling The Invisible" by Harry Beckwith.

The "how to make money farming" are crude overviews of one person's usually not duplicatable success story. It makes no sense whatsoever for me to even consider using Joel's book as even the vaguest outline of a farm business plan in my area: we don't have the population, we don't have the disposable income in this area, we don't have the growing season... and so on.

As an aside, one of the things which really frosts my flakes is his utter dismissal of older farmers. Hello! Have you looked at the farming population lately? And I've also got an issue with his dismissal of using cash resources to fast track a farm... given that he got his farm for free. If I want to stay in the workforce and trade cash for equipment (to speed my chores) or grunt labor (so I don't have to do them) this does not make me a "lesser farmer." Even if I am an older one. I can't wait until this bozo is 70 and someone tells him he's too old to do something.

A book on marketing, which paints with much broader strokes with examples of success from all walks of life, will get you running in the right direction. Possibly even into something profitable. It is a much better investment of your hard earned money and your limited reading time.

But the "I did it you can too if only you follow my rules exactly" thing is a crock. Because nobody can exactly duplicate conditions... unless, of course, someone gives you a farm... in the right region, surrounded by the right clientelle, and, oh yea... also gives you a family as willing to follow your dream, your way, as Joel's was.

Skip the cutsie "you can farm" type books and go directly to the shelf with the professional sales and marketing theory books... there you'll find tips on how to structure low budget advertising campaigns, how to format an ad, how to build brand, and how to sell the invisible. The sizzle, not the steak.

As I stood there, looking at somewhere around 1200 people who had each paid $75 and considerable travel time, in many cases, to come to this event, what I was seeing were people who thought that this farm visit would help them duplicate this success on their farms.

People of what I call the suspender set---plain clothes of one or another religious sect, people with half a dozen kids to a couple, more homeschoolers than I've ever seen in one spot---all of these people had paid money they probably couldn't really afford to miss for a smoke and mirrors salesmanship show.

This is how Salatin makes his money, agreed. But no-one here, I suspect, would think that the old-fashioned snake oil salesman was someone to emulate....and this is exactly what he is.

BTW, the meat served at the luncheon was NOT substantially better than supermarket fare. The beef was tough and had a tallowy flavor. The pork was gristly. I didn't try the chicken---my freezer died, and we've been eating chicken for 2 weeks straight. The best food there wasn't prepared on premises---the choc. cake!

Want to learn to market product cheap? Guerilla marketing -- great book!
hmm 1200 people 75 each even after a cheep feed would dom wonders for my farms bottom line!

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[QUOTE=mamalisa]As I stood there, looking at somewhere around 1200 people who had each paid $75 and considerable travel time, in many cases, to come to this event, what I was seeing were people who thought that this farm visit would help them duplicate this success on their farms.

This is how Salatin makes his money, agreed. But no-one here, I suspect, would think that the old-fashioned snake oil salesman was someone to emulate....and this is exactly what he is.

QUOTE]

Not sure how you could determine by looking around at 1200 people what their intentions and expectations were. Could it be there intentions and expectations were different than yours? Maybe they were hoping to glean a samll item or two rather than looking for someone to emulate? Could it be that out of the 1200 in attendance there were plenty who had a good time, learned something worth $75 and didn't go away feeling cheated?

Salatin has one of these for fee field days a year at most. It's not like he's selling a $1500 seminar or package of videotapes on the TV for how to make millions in real estate.

I intended to go to the Polyface event but a week before I went to a farm field day in Ohio where Gene Logsdon was giving a keynote speech on "Saving the Family Farm". Gene has written plenty of books on homesteading/farming in his day and I think they're usually pretty good. He is in no way a commercial farmer but I still learn things from reading his books. His talk didn't solve all the problems of American Small farms but I enjoyed listening to him and my family (who doesn't read as much farming info as I do) had a nice time listening to him too.

Is he a "snake oil salesman" since he portrays farming as attractive endeavor even though his primary source of income is bookpeddling?

There were clearly people there for fun. BUT....quite a few of the people I talked to were hoping for "more substance" on how to make this work for them. The questions asked and not particularly well answered concerning feeding, food conversion, pasture utilization, recovery, etc....seemed to indicate to me that these were serious people looking for serious answers.

Also, there were a high proportion of plain folk. Now this might be their idea of a pleasure jaunt, I don't know....but seems to me the plain folk I knew as a child wouldn't have wasted money to sightsee. Those who would speak to me had farms or were looking to acquire them.

No, he is a snake oil salesman because he sells farming as a lifestyle while making his living elsewhere. Note that his brother--a very very nice gentleman---earns a living elsewhere and hobby farms, making no bones about it.

You know... I think this is why I have such a problem with the Polyface thing... the man has a farm, yes, but his primary source of income is not in producing "good food" but in selling the concept of producing good food. Which means, brass tacks, that he really doesn't have anything worthwhile to contribute to the nuts and bolts of running a farm... he has some good marketing ideas that work for him and he can sell the idea that he's an expert to others... $75 x 1000 people = $75,000. And that's not including the videos and books he sold at the event either. How many of you made $75,000 last year? Seriously... how many broilers, pigs, eggs, or sides of beef would you have to sell to turn $75,000 in virtually pure profit?

Hey, I'm all for turning a profit... in fact I advise my clients that the most profitable thing they'll ever sell is not what they physically produce but the knowlege in their heads. Seminars are profitable. Fully 60% of the traveling public participating in a survey last year agreed with the statement "I'd welcome more novelty in my life," and "I look for new experiences when I travel." There's a HUGE market out there for "hands on" and "learning" experiences which is expanding expodentially with the retiring, active, and well to do, baby boomers.

Combine this trend with the "simplicity" movement and you've got immense potential in the hobby farm market. Now... if Polyface Days were all about hobby farming and making use of your relatively small farm for fun and profit? I'd be standing up and applauding the man. But that is NOT what it is sold as. And that is snake oil. He's taking advantage of hopeful, slightly desperate, people and turning a fast buck on them.

That offends my sense of fair play.

Mama,

My fault -You clearly said it was a rant and I chose to get involved. I ususally post only when I feel I have someting to learn or contribute but in the future I'll probably avoid commenting on something that someone clearly labels as a rant. I don't question your right to feel cheated. I do however feel it is unfair of you to characterize all of Mr Salatin's work as "snake oil" sales based on how you felt about your day.

When I read a book, watch a video, listen to a speaker attend a field day or look at this forum, I'm trying to learn a little something not to have someone solve all of my problems or give me all of the formulas or secrets to be emulated exactly. That would take all of the creativity out of farming that I find so appealing. I wouldn't want to be anyone's franchisee.

For example, I've studied Andy Lee, Joel Salatin and Herman Beck Chenowith on pastured poultry. In the end my pens, feeds, feeding equipment, stocking density etc. are different than any of theirs. As a side topic Andy Lee's Day Range Poultry System is pretty dramatically different than his Chicken Tractor one. Should he feel

a. Embarrassed about selling the first book and then changing his method
b. Proud that he's learned and adapted his methods
c. Ashamed that he's written anything for fear he will be criticized for selling something other than crops or animals or because when someone applies his suggestions they have a different outcome?

Morrison - I strongly disagree with the premise that Salatin doesn't have any useful knowledge about farming to sell. Remember the high priced beef and poultry Mama was complaining about? He raises it and sells it. Maybe not enough to satisfy your desire that most of his income come from farming but plenty more than Gene Logsdon sells while he writes useful farm books. If he raises and sells more poultry, beef, pork, rabbits and turkey's than his readership doesn't that mean that Salatin has some knowledge about farming that's worthwhile?

If as you contend, he has nothing to sell but marketing, I think a lot of farmers are better at production than marketing. I think a farmer like that would be better off reading something about marketing farm products by someone who has done it rather than than by reading general sales/marketing text and trying to convert that knowledge to farm products. If you know Salatin's writing you knows he reads those general sales/marketing texts and applies them to marketing farm products.

If as you indicate, the standard we should measure by is what does the author have to sell, doesn't the author of Guerilla Marketing fare worse than Salatin? I would guess his speaking engagements are more expensive that Salatins and that he does more of them. Doesn't he peddle books for a living? Does he have anything to sell but the idea of selling something? Has he ever sold a farm product he raised?

If I had a piece of beef, pork or poultry to sell I'd give Joel Salatin a better chance of selling it than I would than the author of Gurilla marketing or other general sales/marketing texts.

I am an introvert. I found what Joel Salatin said in his books to be VERY interesting.

Like most introverts, I am NOT a natural sales person. I have had to learn from people who are good at it, like Joel Salatin and Andy Lee and Bud Ker.

As for the information on farming, there was a fair amount there that I did NOT know. Things like building inexpensive structures, rotating through pastures more quickly when it was dry out, and home-made feeders.

OK, a lot of that information is out there, but I hadn't seen it all yet. I was still in the "researching" stage of farming. For me, the book was educational. For you, since you ALREADY knew more before you hear what he has to say, it wasn't. But, for some of us it is worth the price.

I'd like to hear more about this...

Did you sell these stories and images to the magazine?

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No, that's not entirely accurate. They are not just a cross of cornish and white rock. The parent stock is more than that, special lines. I think to obtain them you have to buy thousands. Don't know really where you would get them. If you cross a regular cornish chicken and a white rock chicken, you will not get your "Cornish Cross".

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Are you suggesting that only the "commercial" breeders can do this?

That's the point of what I was saying... it can be done, but it's not practicle.

Here's some info on Cornish Crosses... if someone had the patience I think they could breed them at home.

edited to add reference site... http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/poultry_genetics.html

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No, I didn't. I was picked up both times by freelance writers looking for quotes and "free info." In return I got major exposure in both publications, including a two column spread in one, complete with web addresses and contact info. I was only too glad to be cooperative. Exposure like that you can't pay for.

This is "media relations 101." Publications nowadays often use freelance writers. These writers are constantly scouring for a "hook" to make an article punchy with a human interest angle. If you can provide it... you get the exposure.

While you can issue press releases, or even freelance your own pieces, it is much more credible to be included in an "unbiased" piece as a "resource." I am a professional columnist, and I do use my farm in my columns, but I don't expect that to brand my farm as "somebody" in the Icelandic sheep world quite the same way a glossy magazine pointing at me as an example of a successful small flock does.

I do, however, make it very clear that the sheep aren't even break even and while I enjoy keeping them, love the wool I get from them, etc... this is not how I pay the bills. This is a hobby. A great hobby, an edible and wearable hobby, but a hobby nonetheless.

I can play with numbers as well as the next person, and (in theory) you can milk Icelandics, use their fleece, use their meat, and have them on a paying basis "in no time." But that is theoretical and virtually impossible for the average small crofter to do unless they have nerves of steel, a background in branding and marketing, can do rigid cost/benefit analysis, have a rock solid understanding of break even analysis... and probably are not completely amortizing all their upfront investment (like land, tractor, fencing, etc).

Joel pretty well sums up his philosophy in his latest book: Holy Cows & Hog Heaven: The Food Buyer's Guide to Farm Friendly Food.

Joel would have been a success at whatever he did. He is that type of person.

WHEW! Man there's a lot of cynacism and sour grapes in this thread.....

I'm going to start with a disclaimer. I don't think Joel Salatin has all the answers to any of the questions.

I own "You Can Farm". I enjoyed reading it, and I still refer to it occasionally. The subtitle to this book is The ENTREPRENEUR'S Guide to Start and Succeed in a Farming Enterprise. Not "A Blueprint to Certain Success for Anyone as a Farmer on a Small Acreage". This subtitle states rather clearly that #1 it's for ENTREPRENEURS and #2 it is a GUIDE. Anyone who thinks that they can buy a couple of books or tapes, attend a couple of seminars and field days, surf the internet or spend a few hours in a library and suddenly have all the knowledge, experience, skills, motivation, physical and emotional wherewithall, determination, inspiration, self dicipline and the positive support and help of their friends and family AND all the cash that they will need to be a successful entrepreneur AT ANYTHING is a flaming idiot. So far in this thread, I don't think anyone qualifies under that description.

I do know that Joel Salatin has impacted a LOT of folks favorably. I participate in several discussion communities like this (OK - none of them are quite like THIS) and his name comes up often on most of them. Many folks have been INSPIRED to use the "Salatin type pens" for poultry, and a LOT of folks have made modifications that are improvements in my opinion. I developed my rotational enterprise plan:
based in part on what I read in his book,
based in part on information I gleaned from other sources,
in consideration of the land I have available,
in consideration of my labor resources
in consideration of my cash availability
and to serve my goals with my farm.

My enterprise is not, nor will it ever be a carbon copy, or even similar to what Mr. Salatin's is - his book did, however influence some of my planning (it's a GUIDE you know) and give me some ideas that I am able to work into my operation. As this farm grows, I hope I remember to refer back to his work to continue to receive GUIDANCE from it. I make my own decisions about most things in life. I have a wonderful wife that understands that but is always ready to voice an opinion when she feels that she has one and will give me [always] good counsel when I ask for it. I don't look to Joel Salatin, Andy Lee, Herman Beck Chenowith or anyone else to give me all the answers to any of the questions - it just wouldn't be any fun if they did....

Wow! I thought I was the only one that had a clue about Slick ole Joel. When I posted an opinion in the rabbit forum a couple of months ago, questioning his practices, I got blasted all over the place.

MorrisonCorner - you're right on track, same with you mamalisa, except you forgot those rose colored glasses at home. This is MARKETING a business CONCEPT & reckless IDEALISM, and anyone that somehow missed that in Joel's books ought to reread them again.

gccrook - "...On Joel, it appears to me that Joel is demonstrating that farming can be profitable, and sustainable on a realtively small farm. His pastures thrive year after year without external inputs because of the methods he uses...."

Sustainable - without external inputs? Not by a long shot. Every pound of FEED he inputs into his operation is potential fertilizer. In this case it's measured in tons. According to Virginia Tech - his farm is not sustainable
and heavily sustained BY external inputs (read the article on sustainable farming). Polyface farm has a very profitable side - books & seminars, but, farming...? naaaa....

When the marketing gets tough, get someone else to do it for you!
http://www.ecofriendly.com/index.html
Before you jump on the Bev/Joel marketing bandwagon, be aware you'll be doing THEM a favor, not necessarily yourself. It quickly becomes a 'control' issue... making your operation an extension of theirs.

mamalisa - "...No, he is a snake oil salesman because he sells farming as a lifestyle while making his living elsewhere. ...."
Joel & ACRES USA have cashed in on lifestyle concept with $75 field days and $500 seminars.

He's not a farmer, he's an author. He inherited a farm, and hasn't really had to deal with a mortgage & the high production costs, low profit margin of real farm life. Many suppliers GIVE him AG supplies, because they know he'll promote their product - or can use his name to promote their product, like Premier did in their catelogue - complete with pictures of Joel, struggling to move the fence! http://www.premier1supplies.com/poultry/species.php
(kinda looks like Joel's place, huh?)

IMO - Joel would QUIT farming or scale it back to a hobby/retirement farm if (or when), the daily administratation of his marketing network 'demands' more of his attention. Joel's success hasn't been farming, it's come by selling books, tapes, seminars and a twisted view of modern farming. He has taken the natural / organic fools for a bunch of saps, plucking them of every dollar he can get his hands on!

mamalisa - "....BTW, the meat served at the luncheon was NOT substantially better than supermarket fare. The beef was tough and had a tallowy flavor. The pork was gristly...."
Garbage in - garbage out. What do you do when premium resturants start complaining your product is at best AVERAGE or sub-standard? Sell Harder, PUSH & sell! Make them understand how -GOOD- it is for them!

Why doesn't Joel use heritage chickens, cattle, pigs, etc.?
This is biting the hand that feeds you - trashing the producers & big operations that bred and developed the same livestock you're using for production!

Now ASK yourself: Joel is all for the family farm, right? Where does he get all those chickens? From small organic producers? Of course not! He's getting them from the BIG hatcheries, just like YOU! So what if it's genetically enhanced, parents are chemically enhanced, it GAINS WEIGHT FAST! That's what he wants! Screw the heritage breeds - they simply don't fit into his high turn over, rapid weight gain model - he's making a fortune off the common, 64 cent, everyday souped up hybrids!

Well, if he's using the same birds, his pastures must be better then. Really...? Fescue is better than Corn, Oats, Alfalfa, Buckwheat & Clovers? Huh? (garbage in - garbage out, right mamalisa?)

It must be the fresh air and sunshine ..hmmm If Acid Rain from coal burning power plants is a plus, I guess so!

Then it must be the processing facility Sorry, Eco Friendly Foods is also USDA inspected, and smells just like a processing plant. Subject to the SAME standards as Tyson & Perdue .... except the inspector's office doubles as the bathroom! Gross, eh?


I did read 3 books of Joel's... And had to set them down several times - because the idealistic nonsense and rant against modern, productive, successful farmers was either grossly exaggerated and/or possibly untrue .
If Joel's FARM operation is really unique & cutting edge - why aren't his neighbors jumping on his bandwagon? Maybe they can't write books & give seminars... to earn a living?

Let's be prophetic for a moment: I believe Joel is green with envy over the Organic Farms and similar co-ops in Wisconsin. He wants this in Virginia, and wants it as a source of income. The prospect of becoming a huge organic / natural / eco friendly food supplier from this area has him drooling. I suspect he looks at those chickens with contempt, wondering how much LONGER he can put up with those darn things. Collecting eggs all day long is a pain. Moving houses, a pain. He's WISHING he'd automated and modernized some of the daily tasks! It's too much work, the kids are getting older, and his "farm" it's turning into an unmanagable mess. Without a steady stream of free/cheap labor... he'll give up his hobby farm and retire to a real profitable venture - writing books and giving seminars!

...and that's my opinion...

Beware of "chasing the market"... What looks good & going fast right now... is already on the decline.

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