Property line moved

Thumbuddy, it works kind of like this:

We had an old fence between us and the neighbors - 1/2 mile long. Thirty years or more ago we fixed the fence following the old fence line. The neighbor paid for 1/2. It goes through a swamp and very wooded area and you couldn't see far down to sight it good so it was just put where the old fence was. Thirty years later new neighbor moves into that place and feuds with everyone so wants a survey done. Turns out the actual boundry is 20-30 feet into my property at one end.
Surveyor tells him it didn't matter ( in fact told him to save his money doing that side of his property )- the property line is where the fence is at now. He told him that fence was right where it is now when he was a kid and hunted there. It was accepted as the boundry and now IS the boundry. Well, he wanted it MOVED anyway. For the sake of peace we agreed but refused to pay for a new fence. He talked to a lawyer friend and he got told the same thing the surveyor said. When the line was established by the fence and no one protested in seven years it became the line. If you knowingly allow some one to use your property after seven years (at least in Michigan) it becomes their continued right to use it. I'm no expert so I'm not sure exactly what it applies to but I think it means property lines and access roads and the like.

I've got a similar situation.

5000' line. The only place the line is on the boundary is at the beginning and the end post.

Talked to the County certified surveyor (who'd surveyed it a few years back) and she said all of the adverse possession/fence line there for 20 years, etc, etc, were all old 'lawyers' tales. The survey line is the survey line. My old fence is over 20 years old, and I was worried about 'losing' 17' along the whole 5000' line...and told her I was thinking about bulldozing the line, then putting it where it should be...She said save my money on dozers...if I wanted to build a fence, they'd t-post the line and I could fence from there.

There are clauses about easements if adverse possession goes beyond a certain time period...If the neighbors lake backs up on my property, for more than ten years, I lose all rights to sue for damages, and can't require the lake lowered...conversely, I gain an easement on all acreage of the lake (a double edged sword...I lose/I gain........................)But the land does not change hands.

My recommendation on your current problem.........

Do Nothing till you move there full time.

I live in the country, and have some out of state landowners adjoining some of my property. They've never visited it. I have talked to their agent, who is also out of state, and he's given me permission to do basically whatever (started cutting some dead sawlogs this afternoon). But everyone knows it's absentee owned land, and people basically do whatever they want to.

My point is...until you live there, you own it de jure (by law)....after you move there, you'll own it de facto (by fact). People react differently to you depending on if you're there everyday.

When you do get it resurveyed, have the surveyor put in t posts ever so often, fence it with wire...Good fences make good neighbors.

But everyone knows it's absentee owned land, and people basically do whatever they want to.
&&&&&

You mean to tell me that because no one is living there ppl just do whatever they want on someone else property? That doesnt seem right. I don't think that would fly here..I know I'd be one ticked off person if someone decided that my cherry and oak trees looked good for lumber and since I don't live there they'd help themselves. We call that tresspassing and stealing.

Not flaming you at all just wondering how in the heck that works.

I would be careful installing the fence any significant distance inside your property line as in some areas an established fence line becomes the property line....check your local laws.

How do we know that the surveyors are honest or accurate? Here in OK in the past there were MANY instances of fraudulent surveys to steal land. How do you know if a surveyor is honest? Or accurate?

__________________
Freedom isn't Free

kppop...
I asked and rcvd permission to cut trees. The agent calls me once a month, and after every major storm, for a report on his property...it saves him a several hours drive to check up on the land 'he's' supposed to be looking after. The trees I'm cutting are dead, and have zero value at the mills, even for pulpwood (one of the pulpwood loads the timber cutters hauled to the mill was turned around, because of one dead tree, and the logger lost 1/3 day because of it, now he's leaving the dead trees standing...and I'm saving em from the beetles)

Also, if you take a poll, you'll probably find out that absentee land is treated differently than locally owned land. If you lived out in the sticks, you've probably encountered this phenomena. It's urban refugees who worry over every square inch...and I probably would too, if I were imprisoned in some city.

Once again, good fences make good neighbors...it says it all. Fence correctly in the beginning, ask the neighbor if he want's to share in the cost, if not, put the fence 6" inside your property line, and then the fence belongs to you...they cant do anything close to the fence without risk of trespass.

If you've been using that 'unlooked after' land all your life, you'll probably continue to use it that way. I know I do. If someone moves there, that changes. I have a multimillion dollar housing development on land that borders mine...all weekend homes...I hunted and fished that land forever...had an option to buy it, was in Alaska at the time, and a shifty lawyer got shafted and bought it out from under me...but he ended up buying a pig in a poke.............but it's his now...I respect that, and I only go onto his property or his subdivision owners, when invited.

AND, the absolute best way to get more problems with your land, if you're an absentee landowner, is to get on the wrong side of the locals. Leave a sour taste in the locals mouths, and they'll turn a blind eye when something bad is happening on your place...Don't be confrontational, be kind and pleasant, give minor permissions, or hunting rights...usually the one you give rights to will keep everyone else out.

[QUOTE=texican]

***

Thank you for taking the time and posting this. I'm glad you didn't take my post the wrong way. I understand what you were saying now.

Texican, maybe in your part of the country that holds true but not everywhere. In some areas giving someone the right to hunt to be neighborly seems to be interpreted as giving it to that person, his kids, his inlaws, his friends & his work buddies. Ya, he'll keep out 'others' as long as they're not a part of his 'network'. :no: Been there, had it happen!!!

Has anyone else asked their insurance agents or read their insurance policies about liability for giving permission to non family members/visitors to use your land?
Ours laid it out pretty plainly-we give permission, we assume liability!

Maybe all insurance companies don't work like that but both Farm Bureau of KY and Grange Ins absolved themselves of paying out on a liability claim IF I gave hunters, ginseng collectors, 4 wheelers, etc permission to use the land without a written addendum signed & notarized between me, the ins & the person using the land.
I knew we couldnt' afford to pay out on a frivolous claim if someone decided they wanted to sue to make an easy buck-so we posted the land, gave No permissions & fenced & fenced some more.

I have found in my experiences; that neighbors who assume they own theirs & someone elses land are the worst kind of neighbors to have. I'm sure it isn't that way for everyone, but I have had it happen both as the 'new owner & the old,established owner' so it doesn't just happen when you are an absentee owner!!
IMO< You don't lose much when & if you tick them off because they resent the very real fact that their rights stop at their property line!
Give an inch they take a mile is so very true!!

getting off my now!!

Adverse posession laws involve the squatter actually using and/or improving the land, and the owner of the land doing nothing. After enough years go by, the squatter can go to court and attempt to claim the land.

The squatter must use and or improve the land. A squatter cannot claim adverse posession if they have done nothing. With fence lines sitting back away from a property boundry, this use or improvement can consist of simply mowing.

The owner must do absolutely nothing about it. If the owner takes action to assert ownership, the adverse posession claim by the squatter is eliminated. This, btw, is how landlords actually keep tenants from claiming squatters rights. This does not mean the owner has to kick the squatter out. A letter to the squatter stating that they know the squatter is using their land and that they are not relinquishing rights to it will suffice.

If the owner never asserts their legal right, after the proscribed time the squatter can file claim to the land in court. The time varies with juridiction. This is where it's crucial for the legal land owner to produce the above letter. With that letter, the squatter loses. Beware, many owners have long lost that letter. The squatter also must show proof of use of the land. If they've done nothing with it, they've got no case.

I still dont understand why everyone is fencing these boundary lines everywhere except right on the survey line. I have never put up a fence anywhere except on the survey line and doing anything else seems foolish.

Valent, the reason for putting them inside your boundary is so you have complete control of the fence.

Fences right on the boundary line are considered shared by law(at least in every state I've lived in) so that means you may pay for it, install it and maintain it. But your neighbor has the legal right to use it & abuse it, heck even take it down and replace it with something less sturdy.

So the easiest way to not have that happen is fence inside your boundary by 6" or more. Your property-your fence!
It doesn't seem fair but laws aren't always fair or make real good sense.

We were told that it was best to leave 8" on the outer perimeter which is supposed to be enough for standing and repairing on outer side.

man i couldnt imagine fixing fence in an 8" band of area. I wish all my neighbors would fence inside the boundary line and let me "use" that extra property.

Each state has it's own set of rules on this, so there is no one statement that covers everybody.

The govt basically wants everyone to get along, & for all property to be used, emply people, etc. etc. More tax revenues that way....

So, should 2 neighbors kinda let property lines run amuck, and this goes on for uears & years, and no one complains, and some land changes hands, and buildings get built, and so on.....

Over time, it becomes a big hassle to sort out who owns what, and how to put things back the way they were.

So, the govt came up with this squatter's rights deal. If someone assumes they own the land for long enough, makes improvemnts to it, and the 'legal' owner does nothing at all to change this over a long period of time, the person _using_ the proerty gets more right to it than the person _abandoning_ the property.

In general it is not meant as a land grab, or for someone to be able to steal land over time. Some poor gal actually asked that on this site some time ago, how can she set up camp on a neighbor's land & claim it after so & so long a time.... We were pretty rough on her, she's probably not around any more.

As with all laws, some folks find ways to use it to their favor, and not for it's inital intent to smooth out generational land use situations.


My sis was looking to buy a small property for a few years, she ran into a deal where there was 20 acres of wooded cliffs with about 1/4 acre flat for a house... With a possible extra 9 acres right next to the flat spot, & those acres were kinda nice & flat.

After talking with the owner for a few weeks, a lot of things came out. The extra 9 acres got sold to the new house on that side - the house was built across the property line, so that was easiest....

Another corner very near the 1/4 flat spot was 'given' to the neighbor on that side - their garage & swimming pool/patio was built over the property line....

There was a road easement across the bottom valley - not sure on the exact wording of it, he was trying to get a new one signed that could be recorded, as the old one was not & not well spelled out.

The far far corner of the property went very near another house, um well either side of that tree you see way down there..... (This is the middle of a forest, we are looking across 20 acres......) He was going to get a fence post down there soon to let that house owner know where the property line was......

OH BOY what a deal that land was!!!! This guy used to own the whole thing, and sold off bits & pieces to fund his toys. He sure didn't pay much attention to fences or property lines or the like, & just kinda pointed here & there. And somehow, he found buyers & builders to go along with it like that. Now this mostly unusable 20 acres was left, & he was trying to pawn it off, with all these messed up property line blunders hovering over it......

What mess to run away from, but it was interesting to see - I was kinda like a moth drawn to the flame, to see just how bad this deal really was, how messed up the property was!

Can you imagine the years & money spent to try to get all those boarders & easements straightened out???? But I'm sure someone (not too bright) bought it.

--->Paul

This is the problem with unscrupulous neighbors. They ruin it for everyone else. In the land of too much government, IE in the big city, a permit is required for everything. When I say everything I mean everything. To keep a dispute like this from happening, a fence or wall that is built on the exact property line requires a document signed by both owners. This document creates a 3” easement on each side, which prevents one side from taking down the fence or wall. The document stays with the property and future owners.
If this type of land grabbing, and bickering continues, I’m sure there’s plenty of lawyers and politicians just waiting for the chance to pass a bunch of new laws to tell rural / country folks how to live. I guess the only sensible thing to do when living next to a thief, is survey it and put the fence on your side.

Spoke with the neighbor today. He doesn't seem "happy"....too bad....He asked
me why I was fencing it? I told him we were planning on putting calves on it.
I just didn't tell him that it would be a couple of years from now. Now I will
just have to go out with my surveyer next week and check out where that
pin is....He asked if I could put a gate for him to use... :haha: He just
doesn't get it :no: His wife said.."Oh...that will leave no shaded place for the
kids to play! ! " Then plant some trees.....I will let you know what happens...

Surf the net and find a bunch of sites that offer quick growing shade trees-print out the list or better yet, sign them up for the catalogs! :haha:

What nerve, to expect or even mention a gate so they can still use your side. I guess it takes all kinds! Regarding the gate, when you do get calves that's a great way to have them get out-the kid leaves the gate open and you have the fun of chasing down your calves!

Property around here(if you can find a good sized piece) is very difficult to find ALL the heirs to try and buy it...

We have an acre or so right next door that is owned by 'someone' in NY...I doubt they even KNOW they own it....

Good luck on the property border dispute and it is BIZARRE that your neighbor thinks it is their right to wander over YOUR property....

You didn't mention involving law enforcement. Most states have criminal laws which specifically address timber theft, and the penalties include double or triple stumpage.

agmantoo.... reread your 3 to 4 acres lost post.....

did the check clear the bank yet??? If you bought the land, with timber included, and the timber was cut when you took possession, I'd either back out of the deal altogether, or request the value of the timber deducted from the sale price. Either the seller or the real estate agent would have to make this good.

my sympathies...

the perils of absentee ownership...