homesteading to the extreme???

Self-sufficient homestead :

2-3 acres of fine missouri land,
1 acre of flat, plantable land,
1 acre of trees,
1 acre of either the above or sloping pasture.

Assortment of handtools:
Hoe,rake,shovels,hammers,saws,forks,knives, etc.

Shelter:
A small shelter, with a bed(rope), wood stove (bot bellied)
insulated and wind and water proofed. preferably 12x16 or so.
nothing fancy to be maintained or raise your taxes, just painted
or stained slab wood, inside and out. Proabably a nice tin roof.

Outhouse:
Hole in the ground, with a privacy/weather screen.

Clothing/bedding:
Some pants, shirts, socks, shoes, etc, sheets, blankets

Cookware:
Pots, pans, dutchoven, silverware, plates, preferably cast iron and enamleware.

Animals:
Keep it simple, chickens (a few roosters to reproduce), maybe rabbits,
or goats. Limit it to grass eaters.

Seeds:
Corn , vegetables, spices, herbs, fruit trees, etc.

Taxes:
Get yourself a reel mower, and a stone to keep it sharp.
Find a couple or so lawns nearby to mow for a fair sum,
use it to pay for you taxes and consumables like salt and soap.
3 lawns at $10 each (really cheap) is $30 / week.
Definitly 15 mowing per year is $450, plenty for missouri taxes.

Things you cant have and be self sufficient:
vehicle, sattelite, insurance, internet, tractor . at least not for long.

You also need a small amount of knowlege of gardening and animal rasising,
and hunting.

For water, you can build a small 'pond' by hand, dont let the animals near it !
or buy a stock tank and collect rain. Probably a couple hundred gallons will do,
because you HAVE to live within walking distance of a water source,
tanks/ponds will just save you time. And of course BOIL your water.

simply, you cannot homestead with childeren! The child protection service will take them away! your depriving them of Television!

The biggest challenge will be finding the right piece of land. If you are going to heat and cook with wood and have a forge, you are going to need a LOT of wood. I have read that a heavily wooded acre will yield 1/2 cord of wood, but experience now tells me that this is more like 1/4 cord. For every ton of metal that you forge, you need 1000 tons of wood for heating that metal----that is a lot. We are in Arkansas, which is pretty mild as winter goes and we used wood for heat exclusively this winter. We went through 3 cords of wood. So, the property you select has to have enough woods to sustain what you want to do.

Next is water. If you are going to start in tents and be off grid, then you are going to have to have a really nice large creek on the property.

We have what I consider a large garden this year for 2 people. HOwever, my FIL who is 84 and grew up homesteading looked at it and said it was really nice, but wouldn't feed us. You will need about 100 sq ft of garden space for each person.

Large farm animals require land if they are going to be feed off the land. My FIL says to set aside 4 acres for each cow, horse, or ox. Each chicken 20 sq ft. So, your land will have to have enough pasture for the animals you plan on. I have read where one acre per head is enough, but he says that doesn't take into consideration the land needed for sweet corn and hay for the animals. That one acre is just for grazing and assumes you will supplement feeding with purchased oats or corn.

Then there is the issue of money. You won't be able to provide everything you need in this day and time. If you own land, you will be paying taxes. If you don't own the land, you will be paying rent. Then you will have to provide clothing and shoes for everyone, especially growing kids. You will need staples such as flour and sugar and salt even if you grow your own food. Canning equipment for putting food by. If you cook with wood, you will need a summer kitchen as the heat will be unbearable in the house in summer. So, if you are going to provide this via your land, you will need extra cows to sell, extra hay fields to sell surplus hay, extra chickens for eggs to sell, extra pig or 2 over what you need, enough woods to provide for your wood needs and perhaps an extra 100 to 150 cords of wood to sell. Extra land for orchards and perhaps specialty crops such as pumpkins and christmas trees. Otherwise, you are going to need a job.

If you have refrigeration and you are off grid, you will need propane appliances or you will need to build a spring house and there again will need a substantial creek on the property to do this. A spring house will need lots of stone and unless you plan to buy stone, you will need to find a property that grows stone naturally.

Did I mention tools????? Will you be cutting wood with a chainsaw? Or do you think you can cut 100 cords of wood with a hand saw? Will you split it all with an sledge hammer and awe or will you have a wood splitter? Will you garden 100 sq ft per person with a hoe, or a tiller or a horse and plow? Will you be building a house with nails you forged or purchased at the local hardware store? Takes a lot of trees to build a house. Will your land provide the trees you need? Surprisingly, oak doesn't make a good log home. So, you will need land that provides both hard and soft woods.

Now, I don't know how much money you have, but the first thing you need is enough money to buy the type and amount of land you need to do this---cash. That alone will be no easy feat.

homesteaders dont have a forge, if they did they would be smiths and thus professionals, not homesteaders.

I think that there are three type of homesteading.

1) Mostly self sufficient, home made home, raise their own animals,and food, buy nothing except spices and clothes every 3 or 4 years. Sell a little labor or something for tax money. No electric, flushingtoilets, vehicles.

2) Moden homesteaders, have a small house, have electric and probably water. Supply most of their food themselves and raise animals for food and pleasure. One may work part or full time off homestead to pay for the vehicle, electric, and maybe insurances.

3) Hobby farmer, they have the money to live how they want, they either have a good job, or retired from one. They raise a beautiful garden, have a nice house, raise horses and other 'useless' animals for fun, maybe raise chickens but never eat them. Have a $20,000 tractor they mow off their 20 acres with every month.

right now i fall into category 2

I agree , i dont think you can get away with raising kids on a type 1 homestead unless you have a job as well, even if you dont 'need' it.

The main advice here seems to be to go for it, but to make sure you have a source of income and insurance for a while. Once you are settled you can decide if you want to maintain the outside job.

I'm new to this forum and have been avidly reading since joining. I know this is a long post - I find that I can almost never be brief. Sigh... that's why I don't post much. However, on this topic I thought I had something to add so I'd like to make 3 points.

The first is that tent-living doesn't have to be as primative as most people think. Yurts are actually quite large, fairly well insulated, and if built on a platform and properly tied down very weather/moisture resistant. They are large enough to have areas for cooking and living as well as separate areas for bathing/toileting and sleeping. I even saw pictures of one interior with paintings on the "walls" (I suppose hung from the internal structure), persian rugs, leather furniture and a full bathroom compete with solar-heated, claw-foot tub & shower, a sink and a composting toilet that vented outside and connected to a fully-engineered gray-water drainage/cleansing field! It was truly impressive!!! There are several modern books on Yurts and at least one company that I know selling them. "Tent-living" can be very civilized and I highly doubt anyone would take your children away if you were keeping them clean and warm and dry, well-fed, educated, and with a modecum of social skills!

The second thought is really a long string of thoughts - about your kids and their education and environment. Homeschooling is no easy chore. You probably don't think so now... but that's because your kid(s) are young and haven't even begun to think about burdening you with the complexities they will bring to you as they age. I don't say that disrespectfully - no one can truly know what he has not himself experienced. It doesn't mean your kids aren't "good" or that you aren't "smart", in fact it means the opposite - they will be inquisitive, spunky, energetic and creative self-starters with a passion for living and who won't take "no" for an answer - just like you! So, LOOK OUT and hope there are guardian angels! LOL

Unschooling, while seemingly easy and natural in concept, takes QUITE a lot of effort on your part to educate YOURSELF and to organize things behind the scenes that optimize learning opportunities so that they can "discover" them. And I would HIGHLY recommend you maintaining some sort of wireless connection to the internet - you will find it invalueable for all it's wonderous resources both for you and your kids, especially when the library is 90 minutes away and doesn't have books any more either because IT relies on computers now too! Your children will need your constant guidance and leadership... they won't know how to do or approach a lot of subjects, both literary, mathmatical and scientific, without your help. You need to think very seriously about how and WHEN this will happen.

There will be many days, indeed weeks and perhaps months at a time when you are so busy from morning until night that you will PRAY for rain, not for the crops, but for the break because you are just so bone-weary you can barely get out of bed let alone face 4 loads of laundry to do by hand after boiling 25 gallons of water first that you have to haul from the creek in the first place! It's romantic to think of your kids out in the field with you planting and weeding, harvesting and canning, feeding the animals and growing into a powerful workforce... but they won't. I know what you're thinking. But they won't. They'll try, and so will you, but they'll get bored and hot and destroy things you made so perfectly the day before and you'll get tired and sore and impatient, and before you know it they'll be off "exploring" and NOT always in places you would like them to go. You have a lot of years before they are going to be a "powerful workforce". Adequate supervision and enough cash to cover health insurance or medical expenses for all the accidents both you and they will inevitably have is no small accomplishment! I tell people all the time that my husband quit one job so that he could do the work of 5 people here at home instead... and that feeling is real! It's rewarding but it's a lot to handle both physically and emotionally under the best of circumstances.

So, my third thought, and humble advice (since you asked), is that you need to fully investigate, wherever you go, however you decide to begin... alternatives. I hate to sound trite, but you need an "exit-strategy".

For example: What will you do if you decide 5 years down the road that you are just plain miserable? It could happen. I've seen it.

However, what happens if your friends aren't miserable and don't appreciate you wanting to change your arrangement?

What if you decide that you just simply do not have the personal resources to home-school your kids in the way you feel they ought to be? It could happen - the self-doubt and eternal questioning associated with home-schooling (especially in an isolated environment) is legendary!. I've seen many completely devoted, and highly educated parents, lose their minds over homeschooling - and in a very rural location, where you don't have all those nice kid-focused activities and museums and zoos and large home-schooling groups and day-camps, it will be all the more difficult.

What if, and this could happen to any of us, you fall flat on your face and it just doesn't work out?

What if you need to move back to the city because your desires have changed, or circumstances or health demand it?

What if the money runs out and you simply can't make enough smithing and building and laboring and farming to make ends meet?

What if you find that one of you needs a regular job that pays for health insurance, regular medical care, or things you can't grow or earn enough to pay for otherwise?

What if you've spent everything you have and you still cannot make enough to ever consider putting anything away for your old-age? These things could happen.

You could also be WILDLY successful and more rewarded, personally, than you ever imagined, but at least consider the what-if's as if they are real.

If it were me, I would want to know, from my partner... "Ok - what if 5 years from now I decide that I hate farming - that I hate the mud and the stink and the work and the isolation - all those things that we are looking forward to now - what are our options and what is the plan to deal with it?"

"What if we hate home-schooling or feel that the kids are just too isolated - what do we do then?"

"What if we grow to freakin' HATE these people we currently call friends - what is the plan for dealing with that?"

"What if one of us gets seriously injured or sick - do we try to stay on the farm or do we move into town where the kids can go to school and one of us can get a job or be available to care for the other?"

And very importantly: "If for some reason this life is not acceptable for one of us, are we committed to staying together even if it requires a sacrifice and a risk even deeper than this one, or might this be a deal breaker?" It's a terrible question - but we no longer live in a society where the man of the house makes the laws and all must obey. Each has an equal stake - each is entitled to some fulfillment and joy in life. What if this experiment just doesn't work out for one of you? It's only fair that you seriously consider that now - before the plunge.

After all that - let me say that it can be done, and done well! No risk, no reward! It's your life to be written as you choose. The worst that can happen is that you will fail. Big deal! You'll do something else then - just make sure you have something left inside (and a little in the bank) to draw upon! Let me leave you with a quote from James Joyce that was given to me when we began our "adventure on the farm":

"Mistakes are the portals of discovery."

Best of luck and all our well wishes from Oak Hill Farm!

First I feel you should try to transition from modern to homesteading over a course of time. Lots of posts have commented on the learning curve. I'm gonna say 1 thing about this. It can cost a lot of cash to learn. EX. last winter in the middle of Dec. my home made shelf for the canning jars in the root cellar gave out and we lost 50 jars of produce. the cost of it was the jars/lids, the contence, the replacement in winter of the canned goods.

The second thing I'd like to mention is you stated in your first post about living in a tent untill you could build a cabin/house. These people commenting on the state taking away your children. I assume you will be buying the property in the country not in a subdivision. Who would know if you lived in a tent, a yert, under the open sk; No one is around to know or care. You said 20 acres thats enough to not be seen if you don't want to. Most of the posters with that type of comment live in town. Heck where I live you could pay your taxes by po box in the next town and know one would know you lived here.

Just my 2 Cents.

Oh boy, don't let everyone get you down. I don't think you will ever be ready to be a homesteader unless you give it a try. It's one of those things that a person has to learn by doing.

Here in Alaska, we have people trying "to get away from it all".

Some make it.
Some go back home.
Some DIE.

Alaska is the only place I know of that there are places with no land tax. It can be done. The homesteader about a mile from my place has not been to town since about '97.

Build a cord wood cabin instead of using a tent. It only takes about 5 days, and is MUCH better (but build an outhouse FIRST THING)

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I just want to know why, the minute somebody says "offgrid" that that means no electricity? Why do people think that for? To learn more about producing your own electricity go to http://www.fieldlines.com/ Especially read through the windpower and hydropower parts of the site. Lots of good info there. As far as communication goes, there are prepaid cell phones like virgin mobile that would allow you to keep in touch with the outside world and 911. According to some of the posts on this thread, its a wonder mankind ever survived. Some areas of the country just got electricity only 70 years ago. Oh, and for the women, there is something called a "Diva Cup" they may want to check into.

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Parents of Autistic Kids

Randy's Hydroponics

hey I found a way for you to save $10,000, Dig YOUR OWN water well!
and the home can be a $2,000 dollar trailer, and the land could be a site with Salt Brine in the soil from abandon Oilwells, that should drive the land price down.
and live in a Pickup truck-bed camper, and DON'T have the kids.

who are all these new people jeesh. i go to LaMaddelana Italy for work for a week, come back the website has changed new people gosh i feel out of the loop.

you have to follow your heart and dreams. I have posted a thread some time ago about bascially starting a community, i bought 48 acres in maine and plan to start in summer of 2006 to build my house and out buildings. if you look for my threads you'll see my plan or go to msn groups colonialliving.
the was alot of concerns from others that was posted. the biggest one of all from most was "what about insurance"?
well my advice from me to you is take everything that people say, as a grain of salt. because where ever you live and plan to make this happen it will always be different from where everyone else is planning on steading. like in Maine there is no building codes what so ever, so when people say lots of money or this and that, just remember they really don't know,and it is only an opinion. because they do not know your determination.

just my 2 cents

Magdauber I think you are mad too
For that kind of money I could buy a nice house near the countryclub in West Plains!
Of course then I probably couldnt afford the taxes lol
Ok I'm talking without any experience here but I think you could homestead for under $15,000 not includeing land.

House $3,000
I know of at least two methods that would get you a realy nice house for that if you are reasonably inteligent, able to do a lot of backbreaking work and live in an unconventional home. You could get by with under a grand I would bet. It might be tough getting a building permit in some places but their are some with no codes as well.
http://www.undergroundhousing.com/primer.html
Or
http://www.motherearthnews.com/libra...ellar_Bungalow

If you are lucky enough to get a place with a spring even 1-2 gal a min. cost for water could be as little as $1000 Assumeing its uphill from your house(that would include a good waterfilter for drinking water). Admitadly if you dont get a spring you will probably need 3-10 grand for a well and if its down hill you will probably need electricity and a pump at the least.

Use raised bed gardeing and you dont even need a tiller. Do your own masonry and it shouldnt run you over $50 Make sure its also downhill from the water. If your spring is small you may need to get a very large tank like 1500 gal or bigger. $1000 If your gonna build the greenhouse below this section may not be nesicary.

James washer/w wringer and clothes line(for inside and outside) $650 Ok so you hafta stand there and swish it back and forth big deal.
http://www.realgoods.com/shop/shop3....302/ts/1063411

Bucket compost toilet $30 I have used a similar desighn and its nearly as good as a flusher. Much more sanitary
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.html

A good efficient electric fridge will cost you unless your an enginer that can build a passive desighn. $2000

Wood cookstove $400+ and a solar oven for summer time $5
http://solarcooking.org/
They also have info on retained heat cooking and rocket stoves which could repalce the wood cookstove must read info!

Small pickup (will go just about anywhere a 4x4 will except deep mud/snow) $1500

Good quality garden/digging tools $200? Dont buy cheap they fall apart often on the first use!

Good Stihl chain saw & acc... $500 Thier might be another good brand out there but thats the only kind I would recomend and be sure to get at least a 2.9

If your building underground and have a wood cookstove you may not need a wood heater but $300 should get you a good used one and pipe just in case

Solar power setup for lights radio and fridge $2000

A well desighned solar heated greenhouse that uses Speranos talapia and grow beds method and Vermiculture for feeding the fish. $2-4,000
http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/page2.htm

http://www.pcamrd.dost.gov.ph/vermibrochure.pdf

A trio of milk goats probably want Nubians so you can breed them in off seasons for year round milk $400
Fenceing for goats $400 min useing a battery powered charger and electric fence (its about the only way to keep dogs from getting to them and killing them)

Ok I'm sure I left out a few things but that gives you a 15-25,000 spread mostly depending on your getting a year round spring/stream uphill from you house place.


And your land will likely be $10-50,000 more. It can be tough finding small acerage with a spring but you realy only need 5 acres for this setup. Thats mostly for the goats pasture and timber.

There you go again telling people that Maine has no building codes. That is WRONG, The State of Maine and the Town of Dover Foxcroft have building codes just like anyplace else. I'm starting to think the Navy might be working you a little too hard.

gilbert show what building codes there are, i down loaded them what ones are you talking about?

Contact the Dover town office, I'm sure they can provide you a copy, probably for a fee (.80 a page here).
I wish there were no regulations. I'd be $250 richer instead of having to pay that in a fine for building a shed without a permit three years ago

It sure looks like Dover Foxcroft has some bldg codes, a zoning ordinance as well as septic codes. The site did say to check with the local and state regulatory agencies for a complete list of current regulations but these are the ones easily found by doing an extensive online search only.

general info/regulation site list:
http://dover-foxcroft.govoffice.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={B925E721-840F-4DD9-904F-3D5EC45AB1F5}

zoning ordinance:

http://dover-foxcroft.govoffice.com/vertical/Sites/{21942FAF-DA23-4080-8F3A-8A1B91E20A62}/uploads/{59B891DF-197E-4C84-8C4B-70B835E0DF83}.PDF

1990 stature revised in 2000 sewer ordinance:

http://dover-foxcroft.govoffice.com/vertical/Sites/{21942FAF-DA23-4080-8F3A-8A1B91E20A62}/uploads/{F4A82912-182D-4036-930F-13CE6F965220}.PDF

Wizzard, my advice is to "Go for it"...Just do it....No one knows what you are capable of.

Your wife will need the most skill. You will bring home the raw materials.
She will be the one to take these raw materials and make with them the things she will need for the household. Items such as food, clothing, soap,
candles etc etc.....She really needs to be honing those skills. I believe that
the hardest will be preserving food for winter. You may or maynot have a freezer, especially if you are living in a tent. It would be difficult to do certain chores over an open fire.....I can everything...and I can't even imagine doing this over an open fire with little ones under foot. Lack of air-conditioning will
be the least of your concerns...Survival will be everything. I would "turn off the power" and live as close to this lifestyle as you can from where you are now....sort of a "dry run"......

I would also be concerned about child protection. I have a friend who lost her children because she was living in the country without utilties, as she had no money. She rented a house, cooked outdoors on a campfire, hauled water from a creek. They had the shelter of a house not a tent...and they took these kids because it was unsanitary and unsafe. It was summer and she was tending her garden when they came. They told her that she could live like that if she wanted to but without her kids. There were 3 kids between the ages of 8 and 13.....not babies.....when she protested that the "amish live like this"...they said
"Well, you are not Amish and your home is unfit)....she did get her kids back
but it took about a year......she had to prove that she could provide a suitable home......(an apartment)....sad...sad...sad...

I would go out as far as possible so you don't have to fool with people around you...One of these days I may have the chance to do just what you are doing....I know however that I am not ready yet......

Hey.... a thought.... I know you said go off the grid. Did you think of useing solar energy? I use a solar oven alot in the summer even though my parents are on the grid. (I am 22 living at home while saving for my homestead) I grow some of my own foods and 90% of all my herbs (some just dont grow for me or are not suitible to this climit).

I would say.... practic at home turning the power off.... have a car to get back and forth to town.... and keep a cell phone for emergancy (car charger works to keep it charged.) As well.... learn to cook in the summer with a solar oven.

Let me ad a few positives for the grid.
electric probably in your area is like $60 a month?

without it , you might think of a propane fridge. Ever check the cost vs. electric
propane is almost $4 a gallon now.
cost of a generator and repairs, gas, propane diesel
cost of solar panels and parts needed to run it inc batteries

convenience of the grid is a switch away and no problems.

If you think you can run that other stuff cheaper? I think you would be wrong.
And why suffer that 110 degree day when you could have air cond.
and why suffer the torment and agony of getting water to the house
and aggravation when that time could be spent doing something constructive. like gardening or building something.

Free of the grid is a nice thought but the expense is greater than you can imagine.

Now, if its going to cost you $10,000 to get power to the home, that is a different question. But if the connection is free. I would stay with the grid.

As an option for producing electric, a handy person could buy an older farm tractor with PTO and use woodgas for fuel, oil would still be needed, and a generator to hook to the PTO, and a battery bank and invertor to store extra produced energy. I downloaded onto my computer the whole following website Woodgas book along with all the pictures and such it only took a couple hours on dialup at most.... [Ctrl + s] saves page as..... and you shouldnt have to rename the files anything.. just save them into one folder altogether.... then a person can view those files anytime for reference.... total space used in my files is 3.79 megabytes.... so it isnt too big for most newer computers.... I save websites that I think may be handy like that and then when i get enough for more than a back up disk i burn that info to a cd 700+/- megs it isnt for any other purpose than my slow dial up doesnt like intensive graphic loaded sites.... so once d/l it is easy to access.

Anyone who wants to homestead or live with the land can do so to any extent and NO ONE should ever disuade another person from following a dream or path, including myself..... my former post in this thread may have seemed like a little like that, it was not intended to be. Rule nuimber one on a homestead operation of any type, EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED to happen cause it generally does at some point to most people.

Expense is relative to a comfort zone for anyone, what may be roughing to a person in a townhouse in NYC may be a mansion type house for cave dweller [yes people live in caves yet today and like it, although it is not for everyone]. A person can build a firepit for outdoor cooking, a mud/brick oven for baking, and stil put it under a shed roof to keep the elements off, add a picnic table and you have a neat little place for victuals without much expense. It is nice to go to the lumber store and buy everything to build with, but building in alternative styles can be accomplished by anyone without much from the building supply depots... just takes a little more thinking ability and web searches for things like papercrete and more downloading websites or reading while online..... and a searches for one thing lend to other questions as well.... more alternatives for the alternative... but knowledge is power, and power can be put to use in building and living if you want it work.

have fun, and have an experience!

William

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Upon the plains of hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who when on the dawn of victory paused to rest, and there resting died.
- John Dretschmer