homesteading to the extreme???

as someone who has never had electricity in his adult life,I can only say that it is incredibly hard on a woman to live like this...where I live has its own difficulties in addition to being with out the grid.....ask yourself this,which is more important,the dream,or the relationshipand family... I live alone because this way of life is so deeply ingrained that I haven't the ability to live differently....I am also alone,and know that I will probably remain that way....remember,this isn't a lifestyle;this is a way of life Iwish you luck and happiness,Lee

Thats what solar and wind power is for........I am online today via sunlight.
and my total number of posting is low inspite of my long time here, because I have other things to do and on cloudy days I have no power for the computer.

__________________
Thumper/in Okla.
Growing a Homestead from the dirt up.

save the grass, eat a cow
C.L.F.
{chlorophill liberation front}

Dee, I will only disagree with this single statement of your post, it is possble, we are almost there in just 2 1/2 years. But it is far from book learning that got us here, I grew up with most of what I know, having learned it from my grandparents and parents from early childhood as a way of life.


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changing the subject:

I have spent alot of time talking with other homesteaders about the intuitive skills we have learned, that we don't realize others need, it is like a reflex to us, like when you automaticly flush the toilet and flip the light switch as you leave the bathroom, or switch the tv or lights on when you enter the room, thousands of little everyday things. And until someone ask a question that draws on that particular issue, we never think to mention what we know about it

It is ok to not now everything when you start out, it is ok to not have every tool or piece of equipment on hand the 1st day. But you should know what those tools/equpiment are and how to use them.

I didn't know > the things I do now<, about raising animals the way I do, but I had much pet experience and much book knowlage. (( little things like we automaticly know if poop or body language is not right and so we need to watch animal for illness, or a plants color is not right and it needs fertilzer, and which type of fertilizer it may need, because too much of the wrong thing can kill it))

I studied anatomy and 1st aid extensively, the basics apply to most living things. I have studied basic microbiology, so I understand composting, ruminate digestion, food spoilage and many disease issues. I have studied plants most of my life. I learned the science of cooking, so I understand what is happening as food cooks or is canned and how one ingredient affects another. all these are things that I just know and do,
and I don't think about explaining it until someone ask about it.

little tid bits like;
like don't chase/wrestle animals that escape their pens, get a food bucket that they have eaten from rattle some food into and call them back. and allowing animals to crowd you can get you badly hurt and even killed,

those just came to mind..........

__________________
Thumper/in Okla.
Growing a Homestead from the dirt up.

save the grass, eat a cow
C.L.F.
{chlorophill liberation front}

alright.... first off, those of you who worry that you will discourage me, dont worry about it. i dont think that there is anything you could say that would discourage me.

yes it is 2 familys= 2 men, 2 women, and 3 children

i know im not ready yet... i am ready, in the sense that i want to go right now, but i am aware that im not nearly prepared enough

i have had a week long camping trip where i brought with me nothing except a tarp, knife, some string, and a cookpot

i am an avid gardener, this year i will have the largest garden i have ever had at just over an acre. so far i have done pretty well at growing food.... hopefully my luck will hold

meat preperation.... no problem

i am aware hat it was a very broad question, but you have all given very respectable and diverse answers. i just wanted to get a better idea of what i need to do to get this venture underway.

i supose doing it in steps would be easier. thanx for that bit of advice, i will modify that part of the plan, we do want to keep the children afterall.

some people have made camping comments, that is what originaly brought this idea about. we were on a camping trip, and as we sat around the fire with some homade wine, someone said "this is the life" that sparked a long conversaation that lasted well into the morning. im in western ky, alot of people around here know how to "survive" in the wilderness, we are no exception. we thought that the idea of living with little or no money was very romantic. so we all talked about it more the next day, then even more the next day. that has been 2 years ago, so as you can imagine, there has been alot of talking about it at this point.

its going to be hard... i know....

were going to have to do without things.... thats the point...

20 acres will not be enough? i will check into a larger peice of land, thanx for the heads up....

transportation = feet/bicycles/horses

if there was a comment in there that i forgot to address im sorry, but rest assured that i did read it. thank you all for your advice, you have given me quite a bit to think about over the next few days.... and quite a bit to study over. i hope to learn much from this comunity.


and on a side note... people want to live off grid, but still have internet. i think the reason for this is efficiency. where else can you learn nearly everything you want to know on almost any topic with the click of a button.... and then, if there is something you cannot find, you can ask questions.

Since you have kids, you might consider keeping access to a car. That way if a child spikes a temp of 106 during a snowstorm you can still get her to where she needs to go.

By access to a car, I mean either yours or a friend you can contact. :yeeha:

I can't improve on what my betters have already posted. Just one question, whereabouts are ya'll planning on homesteading, where you can get off the 'tax grid'???? I've been off and on the grid, and if it weren't for property and school taxes, I'd be on easy street...as it is, the local taxes eat away a huge chunk of my disposable income...

good luck...
phil

DH and I were just talking about the off grid concept last night. We have our eye on a little cabin in WV with no electricity. I think it would be ideal to live there through the summer months and spend the school year back in the land of lights and washing machines!

It would be a great adventure to do for short periods of time. We have 5 children 8 and under and I don't think that I could handle it as a full-time lifestyle.

Are both spouses completely on board? Especially with another baby coming?

Kids and injuries go hand in hand, it happens, my 11 month old just last wek climbed over the kid gate, and up the stairs, fell off and landed hard enough to create nearly a 5 cm laceration starting on his eyebrow and going diagnoly towards his forehead, it went to the bone, he knocked the air out of him and as my wife picked him up she thought he was gone..... short story side it was 630 pm, on saturday, so no local clinic and its a 40 mile, one hour drive to the hospital hitting 70 plus along the way in the straight stretches.... on foot, bicycle nor horse would do... telephone made sure they knew we were coming.... 6 day later the 8 outside stitches were removed..... he is fine, but could have been worse.....

I grew up on 240 acres, and we were far from self sufficient, although we had an acre garden, and canned and froze enough for most years for the 6 of us, I remember so lean times when the winter lasted longer than the food stored, or came an early frost and we were short.... ever et steak 7 days a week cause its all you have? how bout plain dry toast cause the cow dryed up? 35 below and the chickens dont lay..... ok some of the things are local/regional to Idaho and a few other locations, but the stories will be similar anywhere. Not to say that the good times were not plentiful, my dad logged by himself, bought and paid for a 60 horse tractor, 60 horse crawler, snowmobile, and a few other toys one year back in the 70's..... still could be done to a degree today in places, though getting fewer around. we were not the most efficient place in the country, and by far were not anywhere close to the possibility of self reliant, however dad came up with a few ideas of creating power using methane digester, a ford tractor and a steam engine as well.... just never got it all on the ground as he asked for help from the wrong people and the information dryed up in a heartbeat..... would have loved having internet back then.

It can be done, keep a journal/log book tally book covering your costs, your sales, your hours put into building, gardening, farming, working off the place..... set a time limit for evaluation for quitting and going back to your current lifestyle for a regrouping and studying your notes for where you may have went wrong.... knowledge is everything, but without enough data to figger it all out, you may not be able to correct the wrongs qwikly. There is nothing wrong with failure, because only by failure that can be studied out for the flaws can a person learn not to do that again in a particualr way, and failure means you tried.

If you smith, you are gonna need to buy steel to work, so you are gonna need dollars coming in from some source, coal works best for forging, when i used bark from fir trees it gave a good heat but increased scale for some reason or other. A person can make their own coke www.lindsaybks.com has more knowledge available in old time book reprints than any other website i am aware of and while not free most of the books are very afordable [got to love that stirling engine anigif on the front webpage].

Above all have a larning expierience, and fun at it as well cause when its no longer fun, it is nothing more than another deadend job you were trying to get away from.

William

__________________
Upon the plains of hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who when on the dawn of victory paused to rest, and there resting died.
- John Dretschmer

I live on a homestead. we heat with wood, and I have a wood cookstove, that I ue in winter, you can't use in summer, just to hot.
our children are grown. but we milk nubian goats, and I make chees, butter, and soap, plus for drinking. we have hens, and hogs, and horses, dogs an cats.
Now, you better plan on a JOB , you will never make it other wise. you must provid shelter, for your children, and tents, in most states don't count. you will need, lots of bug spray, soap, food, medicine, for when the children ar ill, and all the stuff, you need for kids, babies,
How is your wife going to keep up with the kids, and get the wash done, cook, and help work on building a houe?
get the house built, and things in place before moving your family to the homestead. I would never move into a tent with a new baby, that is just asking for trouble.
and way to much stress on the wife, and kids,.
get your house up, then go from there, then yo ucan move your family on the land and do it, or get a camper trailer, so that you have shelter, from storms, heat, and cold. and a fridge, for your food. get a used trailer, or something, anything is better than having kids, sleep on the ground all summer. there can be snake bites, bug bites for sure. and serious sun burn,. I think your plan will work, but not with tents, that is a bad idea. You need some kind of good shelter. and a bathroom, for your wife and kids. Summer storms can be killers.
also you need to get your garden in early, have you ever planted a garden, canned or dried your food? it isn't as easy as you thik. I would plant my garden, and see how much food you get the first year, then try to add to it.

Hi,

It has been said before It will be harder on the women. Starting right now.

Have the women

1)Wash ALL clothes And DIAPERS by HAND

2)All sanitary pads will be natural not store bought and have to be hand washed. Who will wash pads for 6 wks after the baby is born? Will the women be kept pg? how will birth control happen. The pill or condoms is very expensive. yet it is almost free to get sterilized. IF they get pg will they go all the well women visits? What about all the baby visits? BAbies will get sick. Will it be survival of the fittest?

Turn all electric off durning the day and see what happens and what you will need to think about.

3) Cooking will only be done outside on wood
4) washing dishes by anything but the kitchen sink.
5) no air conditioning this might not be bad if your place is designed for it.
6) no bathroom inside Pee outside (no TP girls)and do only #2 inside if you must
7) turn off hot water tank. heat by wood outside
8) harden up your nose bathing willnot take place daily too much water to haul. Start now. Bath in small wash tubs or sponge bath. no showers!

Guys:

1) hunt! you don't bring it home you don't eat. I am not a hunter but surly something is in season all year

2) dig that garden for your women
3) cut firewood and then cut some more cuz it won't be enough.

There are many "TESTS" you can give yourself now in the modern cushy world to help yourself make plans for the future. Little everyday things is what will give you and HER fits!!!!! What about her friends/ family how will she see them? This will give you the best chance for a smooth transition. As it has been said there are many degrees of Homesteading. It does not have to be the all or nothing. Start collecting now and read every frugal? homesteading thing you can get your hands on. learn the 3 R's and make do be your motto. Go for it and be kind to yourself and your honey. Know there will be rough patches and make a plan how you will handle wanting to give up. It will happen. The thing that will make or break you will be your attitude. Katharine

living the simple life is VERY expensive and without plenty of startup capital and an "outside" income, i don't think it can be done.
here's some of the expenses i remember (going back 2 years)
1. buy the land - i don't know where you are so you'll have to plug in your own numbers here
2. the property tax bills come regularly and they increase each year
3. well digging - $100 for a water witcher, $10,000 for the well that ended up producing water that is not potable (i do use it for bathing, washing clothes, etc), $1000 for a water storage tank (up the hill, the water is gravity-fed into the house), $100 for an in-house 50 gal water storage tank
4. septic - a MUST with 4 adults and 3 kids - $10,000; you can't just pump the stuff out or you'll face a heck of a law suit
5. living quarters (materials for house(s), permits, inspection fees- $100,000 even if you build yourselves (the idea of living in tents is just too bizarre, especially with kids!)
6. generator - we bought ours at an auction; it's a 25 kw marine diesel generator that powered a ferry before it was retired; i think we paid $700 for the generator and $5,000 to have it partially rebuilt, to buy and hook up the trace dr inverter, and the 8 deep-cycle batteries
7. $600 for a 500-gal propane tank (for heating water and cooking); $750 to fill the tank with propane
8. $4,000 for high-efficiency electric washer, dryer, refrigerator/freezer
9. $3,000 for an 8n ford tractor, $600 for brush hog, scraper and some other implements
10. $2,000 for a 1984 4-wheel drive diesel truck
11. $3,000 for a dr brush cutter, wood chipper, chain saw
12. $200 for materials to build the shed that houses the generator and the structure over the well
13. $300 for a 1,000 gal diesel storage tank
14. $300 for a SAFE wood stove

that's roughly $145,000 to get started
then there's the regular and other expenses (diesel for the generator and truck, gasoline for the car, insurance and tabs for the vehices, property tax, satellite cell phone (a MUST for emergencies, satellite internet connection, food - you simply cannot grow everything, soap, toilet paper, canning jars and food drying equipment (from garage sales), fencing materials, vet bills, and on and on.
obviously, ours is not a "primitive" living situation but i'm not into punishing myself in my dotage
as i said above, it can be done but not without plenty of start-up capital and some money coming in each month for ongoing expenses. we're doing it and i wouldn't have it any other way - i love not being able to sleep at night because the dog/coyote/wolf choir is practicing, but i sure would not like staying awake because i don't know how to pay the bills!

Well, how did Ted Kazenski do it, and he also made bombs!

magdabauer I tell you your mad! You don't need all that.

the best way to homestead is serve the Lord and have a fellowship community, this way you can escape land taxes(everything is for the ministry) you can use a OUTHOUSE, or compost toliets.

BTW I've found the only way to get around land taxes is a church like place, so you preach, put out a sign and do the Lords work!
You submit some sort of form, and like a oversight comity grants exemption status.

In answer to the question about homesteading and computers: I can't speak for all homesteaders, but most I know are trying to get off the corporate teat and that is why they want to be off the grid. Using solar or wind to power technology that is beneficial to our lives just makes good sense.

Oilpatch - you would have to be as crazy as Ted to live in that disgusting hovel of his. Maybe a single man would be happy, but I doubt a mother with children would be. And I think the issue here is mostly the children and financing, not one's ability to camp in the woods for a long period of time.

To become a church or even a non-profit is very difficult, all towns check you out completely. They do not like to let property off the tax roles. I helped run a non-profit for years (non-religious) and I can tell you nothing gets the gov't on your butt faster than trying to get around land taxes. The religious thing is so complicated I am not going to bother to post it here, but you can find out more by speaking to your local town clerk. It's not just a few forms to fill out, it has to become a real way of life that you can prove on a yearly basis. If it was easy everyone would be running prayer meetings in their kitchens.

By the way Wizzard, I know you are trying to think all this out for the best outcome and I was wondering what are your business plans for income? This is a question that often comes up when people are looking to make money to support their homestead and maybe you have ideas that could help others.

I also thought of another author you might like since you talked about going without a car: Scott Savage, one of his books is called "Walking My Beliefs". He and his family became farmers in 19th century terms and I believe that they still live in an Amish (maybe Mennonite) community after years of living as a 20th century citizen. One of the most symbolic things he did was give up his car. You might find the book inspiring. The car is one of the most use homesteading items, but also one of the most expensive. Wish I didn't have to have one, but I have not found a good substitute as of yet (had horse, it was as expensive as the car and the bike just could not hold much lumber, even with a little trailer attachment).

$145,000? $100,000 for a house if you build yourself? I don't know where you live but if I spent $100,000 for a house it could be by the pros and be a 3 or 4 bedroom, 2 1/2 baths.

Me, I bought a Axe, hatchet, pick, 2 shovels, rake, tent, coleman stove, butane stove, hammer and a few other tools and a fourwheeler that I had for awhile. With these tools I have cleared a 20 foot x 250 foot driveway and a place were I will be building my house. Still not sure on the size but I could build a 30x60 home with appliances for about $40,000 even though I won't build more then 24x24 because why need all that space for only two people.

This is somesthing I learned here on the board..... There are different levels of homesteading. Not everyone wants to live like the other. I will be offgrid in the house but will be tied into the grid in the shop.

I was also thinking of this after reading all the other helpful thoughts passed your way. Why don't you rent a house in the country and see if you like the quietness and distance from shopping etc. We left suburbia 25 years ago just to have a country home but the back to the land bug hit us soon afterwards. But...just that year in the country village 300 miles away from anyone..no family nothing..no one we knew !! was an experience. ( we literally just opened the state map one night at the kitchen table in suburbia and dropped our finger on a town in the mountains and up and moved..no job in site, very little $$$ and children) ) A lot of good people there helped us and I will ever be very thankful at how they made us feel at home. Boy...the mistakes we made..but we made it pretty well without starving...sometimes I thought we would !! But also hubby always had a job and a pay day and it was still very hard. Old 60 truck that we shifted gears with a screw driver and only 2nd and 3rd gear...and hoped you never had to back up or you got out and pushed !! Yep..I'm sure all of you have been there too in some way or another and not any money to spare for much of anything !!!! And that was with electric and running water. Didn't have running water for about a week until we fixed our own pump for the well one time..no $$$ for a plumber to fix it then. Used the fix it books. Had to go up the mountain 6 miles in the old truck in the early spring and get water from a running spring out of the ground for bathing, animals. (remember no reverse in the truck !!) Sure wasn't much fun doing that !!And it was only for 1 week !! If you plan for all of this you can do it. But don't ..not..not..try your dream. Perhaps you will find out your dream isn't what you think it is today..but a different one as times and days pass. That's OK too !! Good Luck !!

Wizzard --

You are very ambitious! I admire that. Whatever anyone says, you know what you want to make you happy -- and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that the others involved share your common goal.

My wife and I are in the process of being more self-reliant. I think what you want to do is great, but I would start a little differently. Here is what my wife and I are talking about.

We currently have 13 acres but not all of it is useable for animals. We have no access to firewood and no wood burning stove. In these ways, we can't be totally self sufficient.

But -- we are starting small. We have chickens and a large garden. We're hoping to add some beef cows and some sheep as well. This is our learning phase. During this phase, we buy as little as possible. I hunt for most of our red meat and we raise most of our white meat in the form of chickens. We get our house and land paid off. We have already turned off our TV service and are doing our best to cut out as much electricity as possible. We are talking about trying wind power to power lights and the well pump. I like to call this our learning phase.

After this is done -- say 10 years (and we're only 25 so we have time), we begin to find the right piece of land. Already, we've learned the problems with the land we have. We need more pasture and at least some wooded areas. These will be major considerations. Once we find it, we will purchase it outright or pay it off as quickly as possible while I'm still working a mainstream job. I don't like it, but I'm building a retirement account and financing our dreams. Once we own our new land, we begin by putting up a shop. Running water and a woodstove in there. Perhaps solar, but most likely we'll leave it on the grid. I plan on making things out of wood to support our homestead. I will also build housing for the animals we have. I quit my job and we move into the shop. We sell our current house / land.

At this point, we should have the right land (paid for), temporary living in the shop and our animals. We then build our home using the money from the sale of the curent home / land (paid for too). My wife wants to have a vegitable / fruit stand and I will do woodworking. Our home itself will be off the grid and the shop will be on the grid. Basically, our businesses will be housed in the shop so the electrical bills will belong to the business.

It's not immediate gratification, but it is our dream. It's cautious and we plan on learning all we can where we are now.

I guess in saying all this is to think realistically. Perhaps find the perfect land with a small house on it. Gradually begin to wean yourself away from the grid.

I wish you all the best in your dreams!

Mark

Welcome to the board Wizzard. The problem with such a great place like this is there are SO many who come here, it takes forever to read thru all the posts. I read yours and the first five and decided to put my two cents in without reading the rest, so if I repeat information, forgive me.

We've got the same intention as you, only we're realized part of it already. Seven years ago we found our dream homestead... 40 acres with a well, a berm home, creeks thru the property, wildlife gallore and heavy forrest as part of our original homestead. Since then we have purchased another 80 adjoining acres and our pastor who loves to hunt purchased another 40 (all in the hopes of keeping someone from coming out and timbering the land out). We've purchased a diesel tractor (to blade us out). Both of us worked full time and commuted an hour and a half every day... saving every dime we could for the next big investment. We've put in a 2 acre pond and stocked it with fish (for food and emergency water source, as well as recreation). We built a small utility building (8 x 10 shed) for a chicken coop and now have poultry for meat and eggs. We purchased a large diesel generator and got a farm fuel tank on the property filled with diesel.

Our next move is to purchase beef calves and piglets which we'll raise along with two other neighbors (joint venture - sharing the chore workload) for butchering for meat. Then I'd like to get a dairy goat or two... altho we have a small dairy farm down the road which have told us they'd sell us a dairy cow if we want it. That might be better; haven't decided.

Currently we're looking at a backhoe/loader (a 2nd piece of equipment) that a neighbor has for sale. We have overpasses that tend to wash out, and I'd like the ability to dig a root cellar... who knows what other uses we might find for it. Our current tractor does not have a loader/bucket so we have no way of moving big loads of rock, concrete, etc.

I would cook all weekend so we'd have lunches and dinners for the week, as well as harvest fruit and produce to can. It was nothing for me to finish up canning on a Sunday night around 2:30 AM and have to go to work the next morning. When I'd get home during the week after work, I'd have chores to do and just enough time to warm up dinner, eat and go to bed. It was an exhausting situation, particularly in the winter when the roads were bad and after getting home, we'd have to blade out in order to get back out in the morning.

A move like that for US was major... even tho it was something we both desired greatly... and we weren't building a home from scratch. Then there's the issue of the seclusion... being so far away from others (friends, family), from the city, emergency care, etc. The isolation seems a bit overwhelming at times. Sharing the workload with others helps, so you're a step ahead with another family that's interested, but there will be times of frayed nerves too, I'm sure.

Best of luck to you; keep us posted on what you do.

**** Edited to add:

I forgot to mention we already had 2 four wheel drive vehicles which are a necessity where we live. Also we are looking into a windmill and/or solar system to be off the grid with... but that is a major expenditure and I know too little about it so we'll probably have to hire some help to figure out what we will need.
But if we tackle that, our future expenditures will be minimal, and that's our aim.

Ted K. didn't take his family with him.


Oh, and did anyone think to tell her that everything costs twice as much and takes three times as long as one plans?

And the predators. Does she know about those?

Homesteading and being self-sufficient is a wonderful ideal. Not very realistic for the green and inexperienced, though. I suggest finding the parts that are non-negotiables, and work with those first.

"Compromise" comes to mind...

I cook on a woodburning cookstove. No dishwasher. 2 kids - homeschool. We take "sprinkles", rather than "showers". (Where's the pressure?) The toilet flushes - usually. Ants are trying to move into my 100 year old farmhouse. The copperheads are awake. 20 miles to anywhere...

That said, I'm extremely happy on my 20 acres. But, I have electricity, and I'm warm and dry. Makes the intolerable, tolerable.

How much land is needed to survive and live on with a min of outside purchases?
1 acre garden == lot of food if intensively cultivated
1/2 acre grains for household
rabbits chickens dont need much space
2 acres grain for small animals
1/2 acre pond for catfish or trout and for the ducks and geese
sow for piglets each year -- 100 by 100

couldnt it be done on 5 acres or less? leaving the rest to nature? 5 more acres for wood for heating?

Still need an outside job till paid for, but why wouldnt that be enough for the basics?

My solar with wind and a backup diesel will be well under 7500 when done! That gives me a 3 year payback -- 3500 for utility power, 100 a month utilities, figure i break even in 3 yrs!

My 20 should be in the black in 3 yrs and profitable in 5 -- tho i wont be self sufficent, i should be able to stay home and make a good living!
just some thoughts == good luck!