Heartworm in dog

Thanks Berta & Sarah,

I feel like I am back to square one now, I was really hoping the ivermetic was the way to go


I think we may just go with giving him the heartguard and taking it from there, I dont know


Either way I dont want him to suffer and be in pain, its not fair to him.

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Tiffany~ SAH/HS Mom of 4 ~ If you need me email, I am no longer coming to HT.

If you can't properly care for an animal DON'T GET IT.

I agree with you! There are so many pooches I see that get dropped off and it just burns me up! I see that Tiffany has said her goodbyes and is off the boards now..... Couldn't take the heat, I guess.....

Please think about the animals you bring home with you, 2 legged, 4 legged or otherwise! I saw a photo of a boa that had been let lose too....GEES LOUISE! Let me come across that in the dead of night....AUGH!!

There is oftentimes disagreement about what is "proper care"---do you drink raw milk? Do your kids go to public school? Do your girls wear pants, or just dresses? My vet swears that no purchased vaccine or flea treatment is as good as what she's got at 3 times the price......

Not everyone thinks that monthly doses of insecticide are the proper thing to do to our dogs. Not everyone thinks that you should spend thousands of dollars on the dogs/cats/livestock you have. There is a cost/benefit analysis that must go on for each of us to survive, and each makes different choices.

So hop down off your soapbox, take a deep breath, and offer useful advice.

I think if you had read her posts more carefully, you would notice that she had the dog retested for HW though they had already been told it was negative. She looking for advice since she had just rec'd the positive results the day before. LOTS of people don't give HW preventative during winter months because possibility of transmission is low. I would say she has shown great concern for her dog, and simply can't afford to throw her checkbook at the vet for carte blanche care. Her priorities are right where they should be..children and family first. If the only people that should adopt dogs are the neurotic ones who place them ahead of human children...then thats pretty sad for the millions of homeless animals that would have wonderful homes otherwise.

You all are being mean again for no reason. Her dog should not have tested postive for Heartworms. The new test they are using NOW tends to test postive for just millaflora (or whatever) in the bloodstream, and not just for a case of heartworms. They are having LOTS of dogs on Heartguard test positive for it, even though they have never gone off. There are many cases around the web on dogs testing positive that should not have.

AND, according to the maps and mosquitoes, we in OH & KY should not have to give preventives till June, then thru Dec. Even though most start earlier than that, we don't NEED to because of mosquitoes. The days & nights temperatures HAVE to be above 60*, not dropping below, for 30 straight days, for the mosquitoes to be able to infect dogs. Her dog tested neg in November. And she is not yet late on starting prevention. One dose of Heartguard lasts 45 days anyway, well past into the dormant season.

Her dog is young. She could simply start him on Heartguard, or another monthly preventive now. There is no way, if he does have heartworm, that it's a full blown case, he is too young, and he tested neg in November.

Don't let them run you off Tiff. It is not your fault. Some of you ought to be ashamed of yourselves for being so rude to her. She has done nothing wrong.

I just don't get it. I've read every post on this thread...some more than once. Not once has ANYONE said the dog should come before the children. However, just because some people have suggested that it would be in the dog's best interest to get veterinary treatment for a condition the dog is known to have names like "neurotic" and "nuts" are thrown and the nasty insinuations! OH MY..."holier than thou" attitudes and "hop down off your soapbox" because one has a difference of opinion?

Exactly who is being holier than thou here?

I won't be posting in this thread anymore because I've already stated what I believe would be the best choice for the dog. I don't care to participate in name calling and mud slinging. :no:

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I'm running so far behind I thought I was first!

http://hickahala.blogspot.com/

On the assumption she WILL check back at some time....call the shelter where you got the pup and talk to them. If there's an indication that there are adult worms present (they take 6-7 months to become adults) the shelter ought to at least offer you discounted treatment.

Find out what vets volunteer at the shelters..they may often treat for a reduced price.

Different vets can REALLY differ in what they charge for treatments...call around and ask

If that fails, and your dog looks like one particular breed, contact that breed rescue and tell them you have young children and can't afford to pay for the entire treatment yourself...maybe they have a fund to help.

My next door neighbor used to do all-breed rescue (she moved) and would sometimes have 10 or so dogs in her house. She couldn't afford the usual heartworm meds, so used Fillariabits (spelling?) a pill that she had to give the dogs EVERY day. It was the one affordable alternative.

Mon

[QUOTE=Cindy in KY]You all are being mean again for no reason. Her dog should not have tested postive for Heartworms. The new test they are using NOW tends to test postive for just millaflora (or whatever) in the bloodstream, and not just for a case of heartworms. They are having LOTS of dogs on Heartguard test positive for it, even though they have never gone off. There are many cases around the web on dogs testing positive that should not have.
[QUOTE]

Cindy-I don't understand this paragraph-maybe I'm being dense (I'm being serious here-not trying to do any bashing)? Why shouldn't her dog not have tested positive for heartworms? I fully agree with you that in many, many areas of the country there is no need to treat year-round for heartworms (April 1-Dec 1 here in Iowa) and I believe the dog was probably infected with heartworms BEFORE she brought the dog home. The dog probably got infected right before he was tested at the shelter. I don't know what tests your vets do where you live but at every practice I've been in the first-line test is an antigen test which detects ADULT heartworms. Since it detects adult females, the test will not show positive until 5-6 months after the infection when the worms mature. There is also a microfilaria test that looks for the "baby" worms-this is usually done after the test for the adults as a confirmatory test. The microfilaria test is actually the "old" test here in Iowa. Maybe vets in other areas of the country use the microfilaria test first-I don't know. Yes there is a possibility if the dog just has a microfilaria test that it could come up positive when there are no adult heartworms because the infected mosquito injects infective microfilaria into the bloodstream (which are then ideally killed by preventative). It sounds like Tiff's dog was positive on several different tests so it is EXTREMELY unlikely that this is a false positive. While ideally the dog should undergo the treatment, I DO understand the money/priority issue. Personally I would probably do/sell anything to get my dog treatment, but then again I do not have kids-my dogs are my kids. If she chooses not to go the treatment route, I would have no problem with her using a preventative (from the vet or careful calculation with Ivermectin) as this will keep her dog from: #1 infecting all the other dogs in the neighborhood and #2 keep the dog from becoming infected with additional heartworms (the microfiliria HAVE to go through the mosquito to become infective). Eventually the current adult worms will die and I hope the dog won't have permanent damage from them. I know a little of her hesitation was the "the treatment is painful, the dog could die, etc." speel from her vet, but if her vet really stressed those points I think they blew it way out of proportion. The newer meds are actually quite safe in a dog that is not severely affected.

I too think this thread has gotten mean (whether unintentionally or not) and I hadn't planned on posting again on this thread, but I just didn't understand that first paragraph. I sincerely hope people continue to post questions about their pets on this forum but pet posts always seems to end up a "they are family members" vs. "they are just pets"! I'm personally in the first camp, but can see the "other side's" point of view. If you don't tell me I should be spending my money saving orphans in the 3rd world instead of on my pets, I won't tell you that you are going to Hell because you choose to treat your pet at home, etc., etc.!!!!! Off my box now!!!

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Sarah,

If there are no dogs Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.
-Will Rogers

I never told anyone to "spend their money saving orphans in the 3rd world". People in the 3rd world are starving because all that "beef" over there is too Holy to them to eat. Cows as pets, and they are starving to death and dying. But that's their choice. I said I personally could not justify it. I was thinking along the lines of kids in the U.S. anyway. But I don't tell anyone how to spend their own money. But all the meanies on here are telling her how to spend hers.

The adoption place did the HW test, and if they saw no goobers in the blood on the smear, and they gave him a tablet, then the tablet should have killed the goobers in his blood. The tablet would have lasted 45 days, thus making it thru to the safe time of winter if any more mosquitoes bit him and gave him more goobers. (I can't spell microfilaria) And, there are allot of false postives coming up this year, I dunno what the new test is about, but I can go see.

Cindy-I didn't mean YOU or anybody in particular in that paragraph of mine. I'm SO sorry! I was generalizing from past threads! My question for you was pretty much the first paragraph.

I do want to clear up about heartworm preventive though-the pill takes care of anything that infected the dog in the last 45-60 days. It doesn't LAST for that long. The half-life of Ivermectin (the active ingredient in Heartgard) is something like 2 days in a dog, so the drug is introduced into the system, it kills the L3 and L4 stages of microfilaria in the system at that point (I can go into much more detail about the lifecycle of heartworm if anybody wants me to), and is then quickly cleared from the dog's system. If the dog was infected at least 60 days and less than 5 months before the tablet was given then the dog would test "negative" and the pill would be ineffective against the older larva. Tiff got a bum deal!

I'm very sorry to hear of so many false positives in your area-it hasn't been a problem here thankfully.

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Sarah,

If there are no dogs Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.
-Will Rogers

Did it ever occur to any of you jumping on Tiffann that she has a very young family? Remember what that was like? Money was tight, and not a lot left over? She simply can't lose her house to treat her dog. That fact is probably bothering her enormously, and having someone post (I'd rather post the name of the arse, but most will already know) vile bitterness certainly doesn't help matters at all.

Many people in this thread were trying to help, but there are always the jerks that just want to bash someone for doing something the "proper" ie. their way.

Think about it. At some level every single person that bashed Tiffann could reach the point of not being able to treat their pet...be it $500 or $50,000--how would you feel? Truly THINK about.

Stacy

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People say I can't multi-task. Well, I can tick you off and amuse myself at the same time.

Tiffany, all of my pets except one dog have been rescued from here or there or somewhere. My monthly income is about half of many people's monthly minimum credit card payment, but I manage to take responsible care of the animals and myself just fine. I know very well what it's like to balance animal needs and reality, and I also know that "oh, we can't afford that" is a cop-out 99% of the time.

You've been given a wealth of tips and information in this thread, from what amounts to "jes givem a wad a chew, it's gonna kill them worms" to professional input from people who know that a wad a chew won't fix it, plus suggestions to work with your vet or another one concerning treatment options and payment options - I think people have really come together to try and help you and your dog with this problem. If you don't want to hear anything beyond the $10 miracle fix, you need to state that clearly in your first post.

If I may say this without getting bashed for being a nutcase: if there's any way that you can keep your dog from infecting the dogs in your neighborhood, it'd probably be appreciated by quite a few people. Along the lines of "your dog is yours to do with as you please, but other people have rights too".

I hope you'll find a solution that suits you and won't harm your dog or your neighborhood. It's not easy.

Sarah,

I for one would be glad to hear more info on heartworms and treatment. I have herding dogs so use Interceptor (milbemycin oxime). Do you know what the "reachback" is in that (if it has one)? Any particular odd things I should know about that drug?

BTW, a friend in GA did have a false positive on her dog a year or so ago. On the advice of her vet, it was retested the next day (came out neg) and then tested (negative) again a week later. Vet did suggest she retest at 6 and 12 months, just to be positive.

Mon

Do you have young children, Vera? Is your house paid for? Good for you that you do so well on so little...not everyone can.

How do you know "oh, we can't afford that" is a copout? Are you psychic? Did it come to you in a dream? How do you know that? Please explain...I'm very interested.

I just don't understand. This person's dog is sick and some are just making her life more miserable by heaping abuse on her. What's up with that?

Stacy

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People say I can't multi-task. Well, I can tick you off and amuse myself at the same time.

I'll start with the easy one: Interceptor also has a "reach back" of approximately 45 days. The reason most meds say every month is because a lot of people (including myself from time to time) aren't really good at giving the med on the EXACT day they are supposed to. By giving people a 2 week "extra" window of effectiveness everybody is thoroughly protected. Also glad to hear your friend's vet wanted to retest-false positives CAN and DO happen, I'm just glad they don't happen very often (we see only a handful of positive tests per year here and so far all HAVE been positive).

Here's the quick and dirty of the life cycle-if I leave anything out or I am not clear let me know. Adult heartworms reside in the pulmonary arteries and right ventricle of the heart. Obviously you must have both male and female worms to produce "babies" or microfilaria (it IS possible to have infections with only one sex of worm). The microfilaria (stage L1) are carried in the blood stream of the infected dog. Said dog is bitten by a mosquito and the L1 larvae are ingested by the mosquito. In the mosquito the L1 larva/microfilaria incubate through stage L2 and into stage L3. This can take as little as 8 days or as long as a month depending on the environmental temperature. Stage L3 larvae are the infective microfilaria. These larvae are injected into a dog when the mosquito takes another blood meal. Once in the new host the L3 larvae molt into L4 larvae and start their journey to the pulmonary arteries. They arrive at the pulmonary arteries as L5 larvae approximately 100 days after they originally entered the dog. Over the next 2-3 months they mature into sexually mature adults. If both sexes of worms are present, new microfilaria are produced 6-7 months after the L3 larval exposure. Adult heartworms can live for 3-5 years. The average worm burden in a typical infected dog is about 15 worms, while the
average infected cat only has approximately 1-3 worms (yup cats can get heartworm too but they are MUCH more resistant).

Heartworm medications (whether Ivermectin/heartgard or Interceptor) are only effective again stages L3 and L4. These stages are present for a minimum of 45 to maximum of 60 days. That why the preventive is "good" for 45 days-it slowly kills all larvae in those stages when given. When it is given again 30-45 days later the oldest possible larvae is 30-45 days old and totally susceptible. There is an "old" daily medication called Filaribits. This medication MUST be given daily because if you miss as little as 3 days, it is possible to cause a severe allergic reaction (and possible death) if the dog has a large number of microfilaria in his system.

Sorry this is so long. Please let me know if you want any other information.

Edited to add: Don't know of any oddities with Interceptor!

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Sarah,

If there are no dogs Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.
-Will Rogers

Yeah, I heard that you have a mild fascination with psychics Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not - psychic, that is.

I do have some pity for you... it can't be easy to live with such obsessive hostility in your soul. But I'm sure that you can go get help for yourself easily enough, so I'll continue to use my time and efforts for those creatures who can't do the same.

You'll probably have an easier time of it once you mature a little and realize that education isn't the evil thing you feel it is. Until then, feel free to act out your frustrations by "heaping abuse" onto others like you accuse them of doing to Tiffany. Better you do it in writing with strangers than act it out with an animal or kid in your care.

Do some research and get the dosage correct and inject ivermectin in the dog. You have no guarantee that the vet will not kill to dog. The vet killed my daughter's cat when it went in for spaying! If I called the vet every time a cow had pinkeye or lice or a limp I would be working only for the vet. These are farm animals and farm animals have risks the same as farmers. My responsibliities are to provide adequate food and care up to a point. You are also at this point and you do not need to feel remorse over something that has occurred and is behind you. Within your means provide what treatment you can justify, once that is done if the probelm is not corrected then it is your responsibilty to cease the animals suffering! These are animals, not humans.

Good grief! I didn't know that about Filariabits, and I bet Betsy didn't either!

Thanks for the heartworm info. Many years ago when I was a Brownie co-leader we took our girls to visit the vet across from the school. He had a heart filled with heartworms in a jar and the memory of that has stayed with me for YEARS. Would make a great horror story. Yuck.

Mon

Ok, bashing Stacy is going too far. She is trying to see BOTH sides, and honestly the realistic side of things.
Accusing her of needing help is over the line, just because she disagrees with you.
Your posts have been far more hostile than hers.

Not everyone EXPECTS 500$ medical bills for a dog, so of course just dont get one. Not everyone can spend 13,500$ on a DOG for goodness sake. Im sure there are quite a few people here that think that is insane, and more than a few that that amount is more than they make per YEAR. I keep wondering why that amount was even posted, and not kept private.

You have dogs, you dont have children. Maybe you cant understand the choices some people do have to make. If it came to spending that much on an animal, I could not do it. Even insinuating Stacy could hurt an animal or child is a terrible thing to say.

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Recognize the beauty in things, in creation, even when thats difficult to do.
Be loving, show compassion. Create while we're here.
Enjoy this life, be in this life but not be of it.

You never answered my questions, Vera. Do you have children, especially young children? A mortgage? You also never answered how you *knew* that 99% of the time "I can't afford it" is a cop-out. I'm still interested.

Please, take your vile bitterness out on me. I can take it, and laugh at it. I'd rather you take your nastiness out on me rather than someone else.

Are you going to answer my questions, or not?

Stacy

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People say I can't multi-task. Well, I can tick you off and amuse myself at the same time.