new neighbor put electric fence up on our fence

While I understand the frustration, because I would have felt the same way, but if the metal gets baled in the hay--the animals eating it will be the ones who suffer. I would have picked up the barb wired/metal pieces and it put in my trash or the dump.

I'm the newb offender!

For some reason it was at the top. No way I'd dig back through seven years of threads to bring it up.

Then again...

1. New people have opinions too and the people that thought the trespass and the use of other's property without asking need to pull their heads out of their...

and

2. I'd revive it again if nothing to hear all the whining and griping about someone resurrecting it.

J

Check out any large patent issued under The Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act

That has nothing to do with THIS topic, or your claim about ATV trails

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Jason, welcome!
Apparently those whining are the minority, there seems to be plenty of interest in this topic.
I'm also one of those that don't want anybody to use my property w/o asking and would be very peeved if one of my neighbors acted like it was his.

LOL what is "THIS TOPIC"
The OP started out not wanting their fence used by others,that wandered into the area of where to put a fence and why,THAT wandered into the area of losing ground if someone uses it ,THAT wandered into riding trails across someonme else and then when I mentioned after a period of time using a trail could become a right you asked for proof.
The biggest easyest proof I could think of off hand was the hundreds of miles of atv trails that were reserved by court order in patents in Alaska.
BUT if that isnt good enough for you look at most country roads. Most have not been on purchased rights of way. They simply exsist because they have been used by the public.Dont think that you can close off those roads just because they are not on a deed.
So just exactly what topic where you talking about and what did you want me to come up with when you asked for proof?

I've already quoted it for you more than once.
You should know what I'm talking about

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Ok your turn How about offering up some proof?


To those besides Bearfoot. perhaps a atv trail on your property wont become a public right but why chance it, simply close it off at least once a year and keep a bit of proof.

We have had ATVers on our property. Not recently, because the old road they used to ride in on has fallen into a terrible state of disrepair, and they would have to lift their atv over logs. But we fenced across it with barbed wire. I tied dozens of colorful ribbons on the fencing to make sure they saw it. I did NOT want anyone riding through it because they didn't see it. I posted numerous NO TRESPASSING signs. The ones they could reach, they tore down. So I backed my own ATV up to a couple of trees, and stood on it while putting up some signs, just as high as I could reach. The signs that they couldn't reach are still there.

There is a public trail through the National Forest, that goes around our place, not through it. Many of the trespassers I've confronted over the years claim that they thought they were really on that trail and not on private property. So I hand painted a sign telling them that this is NOT that trail, and gives them directions on how to find it. So if they come past all of that they intended to trespass.

I do check the fencing regularly. I check my signs, and replace the missing ones. And I have photographed the old road where we had such a problem for so long, with all of the signs and barbed wire, bedecked with colorful ribbon.

I want to offer a thought to those who worry about having some of your land taken by adverse possession.

There are requirements that are supposed to be met before a judge will grant it. Discussed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession
It must be open and notorious and continuous. The possessor must have continuous and exclusive use of the property. They must actually possess the property. And their use must be hostile, non permissive or adverse.

I studied up on this some time after we bought the place, because of the odd behavior of some of the cabin owners. A little history. Our ranch is completely surrounded by National Forest. The road between the highway and the ranch has a number of Forest Service lease land cabins on it. The cabins can't be used as a primary residence, ie. you can't live in it. Most of them are owned by the descendants of the people who built them in the 20's and 30's. Some of them had ancestors who knew some of the previous owners of our ranch, and at least one claims that his grandfather worked for the previous owner of the ranch as a 'foreman'. That wouldn't have been full time work, and probably only for a few weeks, as at the time, the only work available at the ranch would have been picking apples In the fall, and the orchard was only about 10 acres, of immature trees.

But these people had a hard time when we bought the place understanding that we bought the place, and we have a right to decide who comes on the property and who doesn't. Another piece of history is that the place sat vacant for nearly a decade before we bought it. For the first few years, we would find the cabin owners picking our apples without permission, or hiking through the place. I tried to be as pleasant as possible in my dealings, yet firm that we are the owners. Please call in advance to get permission before entering. In the beginning, I was also very generous with the apples too.

One cabin owner is a very angry older guy that lives out of state, and only visits his cabin infrequently. Maybe a couple of times per year. But when he is here, he considers himself KING OF THE MOUNTAIN! He calls the sheriff to report anyone or anything that doesn't meet with his approval. He screams at people, and he vandalizes things to change others behavior.

I met him one evening at dusk, well on our ranch. Our gate was locked, but he and his wife crawled under it, and brought their dogs along, to hike through the ranch to go look at a waterfall in the National Forest. We didn't see them when they were on the way there, but on the way back to their place, their dog saw our dog, and charged up and attacked and pinned her to the ground. The dogs owners got their dog off ours. They introduced themselves and after giving their history of always going through our place, asked permission to go through while hiking. I was still new at owning the place, and a bit overwhelmed and intimidated. My hubby had broken his back, and he was in bed in the house. I was alone and unarmed, and this was our first trip up there after hubby was discharged from the hospital. I was intimidated by the guy, I was outnumbered, and his dog scared me. I agreed, and even though I had misgivings, I had not gotten his contact information to tell him I had changed my mind. I guess it didn't matter, because the guy only visits 2-3 times per year.


Fast forward a few years. I was leaving the ranch one day. I was getting ready to lock my gate, when a couple of dogs came running down the road toward me. I didn't recognize that one was the same one that had pinned my dog down that night. I recognized that there was a notice at the store in our nearest community that two dogs fitting the description of these two had attacked a forestry worker. So these two came running toward me, and I scrambled back into the truck. The dogs veered back into the woods. I sat there for a minute thinking that I shouldn't leave with these dogs running loose. We now had a herd of goats, and horses, and these dogs could do a whole lot of damage while I wasn't there. Then the dogs came back onto the road and they were running at me again, veered back into the woods , and. Few minutes later they were running back at me again. This time I could see a pair of legs walking toward me, and eventually, from behind the trees, I could see that it was that cabin owner.

He was coming to walk through the ranch to go to the waterfall. I stopped him and told him that we now had livestock, and I couldn't let him take his dogs through. He told me that he had been walking through the ranch his whole life, and nothing I said or did would ever make him stop. I got more assertive and put my foot down. I told him about my livestock, and reminded him of how aggressive his dog was. He had a screaming cussing hissy fit, called me stupid and left, but the way he talked, I thought he may try to assert a claim to the ranch.

So based upon what I knew, and what I researched, here's what I came up with. And I must stress here, I'm not a lawyer. But remember the elements for adverse possession that I listed above.

1. His use of the ranch was not continuous. This guy didn't even live in state. He couldn't claim continuous use if he wasn't there but a couple of times per year.

2. His use wasn't exclusive. We had exclusive use of the ranch. We had locked gates and we had the keys. He didn't.

3. His use was permissive, for the first few years. I had given him permission when we first met, and so for those few years, he was there with permission. It was not open, notorious and hostile. If he wanted to assert a claim, it would have begun when I revoked my permission.

He didn't meet the requirements for adverse possession, and therefore wouldn't win in a legal claim for adverse possession.

I heard a lawyer on the radio discussing this same thing once. He talked about how once a year, lawyers in New York City will be working for building owners. They will sit outside the building for a day and grant permission for people to be there. They are doing this so that nobody can claim to have had open, notorious, non permissive, hostile use of any part of the building to claim adverse possession. Because for at least that one day per year, the use is permissive. That would restart the clock for an adverse possession claim. They need to have adverse posession for a number of years to make the claim, and if they are given permission for a period of time, that restarts the clock.

Plus, in some states, California for example, they also need to pay the property taxes for the property they are trying yo take. I have been paying my own property taxes, and i can prove ti, and that is another element that an adverse possessor wouldn't be able to meet.

We open our orchard for you-pick in the fall. If I needed to, if anyone did try to claim adverse posession, I would follow the example of the New York Lawyers, and say that because the public is welcome on the property during the times we are open during apple season, their use is permissive, and non exclusive and therefore they can't claim adverse posession. Plus, with my website advertising our apples, hours of operation, plus our Facebook page, we can document all of it, and I wouldn't have a difficult time enlisting lots of happy and regular customers to verify what I say.

If you have someone who is trying to take a chunk of your land, you might want to give them permission in writing, (certified mail, return receipt requested) for a certain period of time, but them give a date certain when it must cease and they be gone. If they don't leave willingly, have them arrested.

This is discussed in more detail here: http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/row/landsur...Possession.pdf

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I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam.

Popeye

How is it "my turn" when you haven't shown anything yet?
But, unlike you, I CAN back my statements with documented proof:

http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/wq/lpn/statutes/nc/adversepossession.htm

Quote:

If they can PROVE it's been used 20-30 years MAYBE a court would let them continue, but in the case of an ATV trail, it's not likely

Quote:

1-35. Title against State.

Still waiting for yours

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Bearfoot That statute has absolutely nothing to do with the topic we are talking about.(ATV trails)
Thats about adverse possession, that would of course have more to do with the OP and losing land by not having a fence on the line. I think what we are talking about is a prescriptive easement.

prescriptive easement n. an easement upon another's real property acquired by continued use without permission of the owner for a period provided by state law to establish the easement. The problems with prescriptive easements are that they do not show up on title reports, and the exact location and/or use of the easement is not always clear and occasionally moves by practice or erosion

FROM....

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...ptive+easement

The same rules apply, as YOUR source states:

http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/publi...b/010474-1.htm

And still you've shown nothing..................

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Ok bearfoot you are right. Let anyone that cares to develop and use a trail across your place, never give it a thought, yep that that sure seems prudent.

My Understanding at least here, Is that should a survey be needed in a dispute its on the party trying to prove right. all cost are born unto them. Should they prove the fact that indeed the property in question is deeded to them then the offending party is due the full cost of survey as well as court costs and any other damages.

By Mi State law a fence erected on a common boundary is shared. Common being the property line. That means use and expense.
One reason some folks get upset.
If your fence is located off the property line you can request half the expense of the fence should a neighbor start using it or request that the action be stopped. I.E. They erect a Fence.
Most often a foot and a half for maintenance is a requirement between fences, 1.5 for you 1.5 for them and a three foot maintenance access thus.

Just had Issue with the Numb nut behind my mom has a 100' of road frontage, the property was all on piece once upon a time, mom has 175 foot frontage. Dad Fenced the back to keep the dogs in and on the one side it angles at 4 degrees. towards his property. dad squared it and kept it over, aesthetics and that whole dispute thing.Well this guy keeps trying to go off that fence. problem is mom looses 35 foot of frontage or so. I dont know if hes a Idiot or not? Front of his drive way lies on my parents property. maybe he knew that?
Well Before He started popping holes I explained how it was understood, payed no attention. He gets a auger and is putting holes in middle of winter in a snow storm? My brothers went out and told him he should get a survey and make sure you dont encroach.
well he encroached so his poles got pulled. they put them back in, they got pulled again, the daughter comes over raising Cain. that is after the state boys where called, but they both got corrected.
then he went to the court house to pay taxes and bought a copy of my moms deed and a map of the parcels. which had he asked I could of shown him both and saved him some money.
Any ways hes trying to buffalo me into this fence. Well for one I was nicest about it, my brothers can be rather rude to say the least. But I'm no fool and its not my say. So I told him oh H... No, I told you I got a 100' tape , I offered it to you to try and find the line before all of that stuff, we will go measure now.
Well he wants to start in the back, so ya duh that poles good but it 4 degrees over that way in the front, hes trying to go straight? AHHHHHH.
it at a angle, ANGLE!
So I said lets go down front and measure. Nope wants to measure all down the line?
Find point A and Find Point B and connect a line(String) their you go!
So after that first measurement he goes see see, just like I thought.
Well no and come to find out his far fence is at least a foot inside the line.
He was using that as the line. Which puts him over at least a foot.
Come to find his far fence is at least a foot of.
we do all the measuring and hes still trying to come over the line?
even after we did it both directions and he sees it falls in th middle of his driveway???
Well I Iterate a bit told him my patience was wearing thin and that do what ever your going to do, just make sure your fence is on your property other wise, you pay for the survey, the court cost,lawyer fees and removal of the fence as well as damage to trees bushes shrubs grass or ground and any other damage.

My Honest and best advice to him was measure 97 foot off that far fence and put it up on that line.

Well That fence has yet to go up.

I think he knew full well he was encroaching but wanted access to our pond in the front for his live stock.

We are not the sort to just take stuff though.

And that fence has yet to be erected.

But you can see how fences do not always make good neighbors.

Of coarse I suppose you need to be good neighbor material first and for most.

I never said that either.
Why keep making things up?

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

If you don't protest, ( consider doing so politely in writing, mailing with a return card, or having a lawyer send the letter), the other property owner could eventually claim adverse possession. The new neighbor is probably just ill-informed and eager to "do stuff" at his new place, but even so. Potentially sticky all the way around.

Please reread my post #130. I don't know how long the neighbor has had his driveway on your parents line, but his clock for claiming adverse possession started when he did that. Have your parents send a letter, return receipt requested granting him permission to have his driveway there for a period of time,say a month. But he must have it moved by the end of that time. You might want to have a lawyer write the letter, because people pay more attention to lawyer letters.

This does two things. It documents your efforts to get him off your parents land. And it restarts the clock for adverse possession, because permission was granted.

If he hasn't moved the driveway in the time allotted, send a certified letter telling him he is trespassing. (I really recommend you have a lawyer for this)! But I would move the driveway, and sink the posts IN THE NEIGHBORS DRIVEWAY.

But that's just me.

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I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam.

Popeye

Look carefully I never said that you said that .

That was my comment.Me giving up on talking to you since I never can make any sense of what you are saying.
I think people here either have gotten the message there is a risk in letting others continue to use their land or they never will.
So there is no point to continue wallowing in a mud fight.

Or the adult thing to do.....Would respectively agree to disagree with each other and move on.