Running the Electric, 100amp service, unusual needs

Maybe I wasn't very clear with what is happening.

Me and my family are moving up in one trailer (8), my two sisters and their families (9 and 7) (total of 24 LOL) into another two. Space-wise some cheaper trailers are planning to be hauled up and connected to the current trailers for extra bedroom space (so there is no real electricity except lights in these).

Now there are no electric stoves/ovens. The only electric items planning to be used are well pump, refrigerators, lights, washing machines, maybe a tv & vcr and radio now and then. ( I have calculated that each family should be able to keep to about 20 to 25 amps but that is only if they do what they say they will)

The provider is not the electric company. They are resellers.

They offer 100amp or 200amp service. They run 200amp out and if you purchase 100amp they just put a 100amp breaker in the line at the meter.




Here is what I was thinking.
If the pole has a 100amp breaker on it I can't put a box in with 4 100amp breakers? I thought I could since that would allow any one family to use the maximum if others weren't using any and if to much was pulled then the main breaker on the pole would trip.

I would use a box rated for 200amp and the cable from the pole to it would be for 200amp. Then if we decide to switch to 200amp nothing would have to change.



Mike

You have a very confusing power supplier, not familiar with anything like that.

Are you saying when they drive away, you can just pull their 100 amp service & stick in a 200 amp'er?

I thought you had more people, but wanted to err on the conservative side....

Anyhow, if you have a 100 amp main breaker, that is _all_ you can pull - 100 amps. Not 4 breakers each of 100 amps.....

You do not want to feed a subpanel that is the same amp rating as the main panel. That just doesn't work well.

At best, you can have your main 100 amp service, and feed (4) seperate 60 amp sub panels. If it were me, I would prefer 40 amp breakers to each house. Then they are more likely to blow their own breaker & have to deal with it. If you go with the 60 amp feeds, then the 100 amp main breaker will likely blow a lot, and everybody will be mad at the 'other' person for throwing everyone in the dark..... You will be surprised how often people who promise to only use 25 amps will be spinning the dial at 80 amps..... You need to force that issue if 100 amps is all you have to work with.

You need to plan for harmony & unity, and like with the water & my suggestion for small house pipes to limit individual flow, a smaller breaker will show them it is _their_ fault it broke (thier breaker trips), not 'somebody else' (the main breaker went, so must be someone else's fault....).

You mentioned earlier about not knowing about length of run. You are aware that longer runs of wire decrease the electricity they can carry? Becomes a bit of an issue after 50 feet, and more so after 100 feet. You will need to use larger wire to carry the same amps on longer runs.

Anyhow, feeding (4) 100 amp sub panels from a single 100 amp main breaker just is not practical nor legal. You need to drop amps of subpanels.

--->Paul

--->Paul

In my earlier post above, I was subtlely suggesting that the service entrance to the main breaker and the meter base and the related wiring be evaluated as to its amperage and that once the main is activated that the main breaker could be increased. This seems to be the simpler answer to feeding his 4 each 100 amp subs. while still getting the system in under the 100 amp limitation.

Mike I think you are greatly under estimating what families will be using. Even though the main power consuming devices are not electric I am very certain that 25 amps per trailer is to low of a guess. Microwaves at mealtimes, portable electric heaters in winter, hairdryers, are all heavy power users. You said there is an electric washing machine... what about the dryer?? If it is electric then it could very well exceed the 25 amps per trailer depending on the dryer.

You wont be able to run the well pump at the same time as the refrigerator either.

__________________
------------------------------------------------
Colton
------------------------------------------------
Never look to the STARS while walking with untied SHOES

Sounds very strange I know, but that is what I keep being told.

I had thought of the 60 or 40 amps breakers but was trying to figure a way to allow a max flow to trailers.

If they say they will only use 20 or 25 then a 40 amp breaker should be fine. As you say they could see who was at fault (a little breaker puns haahaa :no: )




No dryers are going. Outdoor drying.
I have been looking and seems typical pumps use about 7amps, refrigerators are using 4.5 to 5amps, a light bulb uses fractions of an amp.
Hairdryers are a major device. Heat will be wood. Plans are to heat water by wood or gas.

Other than that we have power tools but those would have times dedicated for their use (probably wont be used a lot not for a while anyway).

I probably am underestimating the usage (I doubt anyone would be surprised ).


Ok so let me sum up the idea (now that there has been so many ideas).

If I use a cable that would support 200amp to the main breaker and then use 40 or 60 amp breakers to each trailer and use cable from there to the trailers good for 100amp (110) I could change the incoming service to 200amp later and not have to change anything (of course I would change out the fuses in the main breaker to allow more amp through).

All boxes beyond my main one will not have the neutral and ground bonded. Each box will have its own grounding rod.

As I am trying to figure it out in my mind (I am 750 miles from the place right now lol). I am hoping not to run anything more than 40 feet. I have decided to move the main box from the pump house to the end of a trailer where it would be more central.

I of plan to put it underground. 2 to 3 feet in PVC conduit.
Whew....

That sound ok?
May have to go over to 200amp but at least if I can do it this way I would only be out the cost of new breakers in my main box.

Thanks all,
Mike

may be I missed something but if our going to set it up, set it up for 230 volt system, (220 to 240 volts depending on the area and system) even to the trailers, the 230 is then split in half providing two runs of 115volt, run any "heavy loads" on 230, and this helps even out the loads and the system,
this in my opinion is the only correct way to set it up, and even if it is a old trailer with a 50 amp cord, (like a welder cord) that is a 230 volt system

the breaker box will have a double main breaker, and then two bus-bars in side that the breakers will snap into if the breakers are doubles then it will provide a 230 volts and the singles will provide 115,volts,


there should be two hot wires and a neutral wire and depending on the set up a ground wire (if the trailers are considered a sub panel), if it is considered a main it is grounded at the main panels,

if the trailers are considered a main panel in the building or a sub panel of the whole,

In many(my guess is most) rural farm situations the pole is just a distribution system and each building is considered as having it own main panel and grounded at the main panels of each building,(just as if the power was being distributed by a town or and suppling more than one house by one transformer).
sub panels would come in to play when you add your other trailer for bed room space, and it panel is powered via the main trailers panel, then the ground wire to the second panel is in need by NEC. and the neutral and ground is not to be bonded in the seconded panel,

(but this grounding rules have evolved ever revision of the NEC and is confusing and some times difficult to totally understand the exact requirements as each situation is some times unique to it self, and some times different rules apply.)

and trailers fall in to some odd set ups depending on a number of factors, was to what is the main panel and what is a sub panel, and if your going to meter each as a unit and or if your going to hard wire the panels in or run cords, to a plug.

I personal think you need to consult a knowledgeable electriction in your local area, (Even if your going to do the wiring you self), for the propper advice as to exactly what you need and to your situation, as it seems a little out of the ordinary as how your power supplier is operating, and to what your wanting to accomplish,

it may save you big dollars later, and my save an unsafe situation and some one getting hurt, and even if you say there is no codes or county regulations ,

Usually the NEC is considered the normal by most states, and even if the county is not inspecting usually there is a state inspector, and even if it is not going to be inspected, DO IT RIGHT, the insurance company, and possibly in the future it could be inspected, (hey I am against the government snooping I my private afars as well,and against all inspections on and for ones self), but it sounds as if your want to skim on the proper way of doing the job,

and if you don't do it "right" to begin with you will soon be doing over with greater costs just to make it workable, and I can assure you if you do it once and for some reason it need to be inspected and they have you tearing it out and redoing it you will be hot under the collar, and usually inspectors that find sub standard shoddy wiring (there opinion) will make life miserable for you, in the redo job, as ever thing will be looked at twice and then three times,

Get a good qualified electrician and have them help you lay out what you need for your situation, and have them help you get the correct gages of wire and types for the use, and this is not a place to cut corners, even if you have to pay some for the advice, the types of conduit needed and connectors the how to lay out the system.

Couple of things to think about...100 amp service is 200 amp at 125v so each trailer can use 50 amp at 120v. Without any 220v loads you could run three big 125v loads (1800w ea) in each trailer at the same time (that is if you don't have everything in use connected to the same leg) without blowing the main.
But it will be loaded to about 86% which is above the recommended 80% maximum.

If you have to buy parts, 100 amp breakers are much more that 60 amp.

Wire to each trailer could be smaller with 60 amp breaker.

A breaker box big enough to hold four 100 amp breakers and accommodate the four 100 amp feeders (4 wire) could be hard to find, especially if your going to use aluminum wire to the trailers.

If you don't put in the 200amp service, you could downsize wiring and save some bucks.

I agree with Handyman, this is something you need to do right the first time. Do you plan to stay there forever? Did you ask if the elect provider would drop a temporary pole for you to work off of? We used our gas BBQ for heating water, shower water (outside showers), cooking. All we had plugged into the temp pole was a fridge, freezer, little rv TV, coffee pot & drop lights. We unplugged the freezer while we used power tools. It was spring, so we didn't need any heat.

Our friend, certified electrician, told us if he was going to help us, we would have to agree to buy the best materials, whatever he told us, that's what we bought. Since this is an old farmhouse, with log walls, hard to reach places, it took us 3 months, that's including running a new well wire underground. He came out on Sundays, after we'd work running wires all week, and he'd hook them up as we got done. We ran and got every single thing he needed, and had it here. He charged us under $600, for all his time, but he got to spend nice Sunday afternoons up here away from town.

I agree it needs to be done right.

But I also know we can not afford to be paying someone else. I have done wiring before, just having to take care of it outside is new.

We have the option of doing it ourselves or not having electricity. We figured some electricity is better than no electricity

As others here have mentioned, as long as I use the right cable the only danger is tripping breakers, so everyone there will just have to live with it.

These aren't new trailers. Insurance? On 3 or 4 trialers out in the middle of nowhere? I don't even know an insurance company that would touch that.

Maybe I should post a thread just talking about how things have been and what we hope to do (the whole story) so everyone can understand where I am coming from on this.

Basically if we dont do things ourselves then we are going to have to do without. Our budget is that low.

All the information posted here was great. VERY helpful.
Mike

Now, you have 220v coming in, right? At 100 amps.

You are planning to feed only 110 to each trailer?

That seems a bad plan. As farminghandyman says. You need a better grasp of what you have here. You can do a lot better for everyone by feeding 220 to everyone.

It would also be possible to feed 110 to a pair of trailers, and the other 110 to the other pair of trailers. Which might be your plan.

Don't know if you have this part figured out right. If it were me, I'd want 220 to all. You start getting into stray voltage & unbalanced loads, need a good transformer, etc.

You can split the load, 220 to each trailer & they will blow 1/2 of their service; or you can feed 110 to each house & they will blow mains in pairs most likely. Which is better? Me I prefer 220 to each house.

You understand you have 1 source of 220 power, and 2 sources of 110 power. You need to get these balanced & split properly to keep your transformer happy, and keep 3-4 electric motors from sharing the same branch, all kick on the same time......

Fridges & water pumps draw 3-5 times as many amps to start out as the label plate says. This is momentary inrush & it is cool with a proper electrical system. But with your plan of near 100% useage you will at least have dimming lights, and likely a lot of popped breakers every time the pump comes on. A good wiring plan with splitting power loads up and dedicated curcuits will _sure_ help this, but I'm not up to designing such, not sure you are either.

Now, you want to wire in 100 amp to each house, but are saying everyone is promising 25 amp useage. That does not compute. Most old mobile homes are wired to 50 or 60 amps right now, will their wires handle a 100 amp breaker? Will there be any where for the extra 40-50 amps to go as it is????? Why try for the 100 amps if it is not needed, not used? If you got no money, why buy 4 expensive boxes when a cheaper set would do? I'm kinda lost on that. Not sure what is going on.

You really, really, are into needing a pro to design this, there is so much about electricity that looks like it works, but sets up real dangerous traps that kills people. I know, you are broke. But, killing one of your family...... What's $500 compared to that? Doing the work is easy, you can do that. Designing it - bad news.

You say the only danger is tripping breakers. Have you planned for a balanced load? Are you considering stray voltage? Do you have the copper vs aluminumn issues worked out? Mobile homes go up in a blaze of fireball, a cluster of 6 homes tightly together (within 40 feet you say) with mixed wiring, overloaded curcuts pulling more than 80% of the breaker load for extended periods......

I see you waking up one morning with 3/4 of you family gone.

Water is easy, if it isn't done right the pipes sputter or leak. Only harm done is you are wet or dry when you wanted to be the other. Redo the work & try again.

Electricity is a whole different ball game.

I was adding to this thread as just a basic idea thing, the directions you can go - but if you really are going to go through with this with no more expertice behind it - I will withdraw from adding more to it. This just is not a safe situation, and you are exposing many people to a good chance of harm.

I'd be interested in the story, but I don't need to be nosey so I won't ask too hard. I am amazed you are finding a location in the USA that allows you to do this, even if under the radar a bit. There are _so_ many housing and land use regulations, with septic & well & so on.....

Good luck however it goes. I understand being cheap, I'm about as cheap as they come, As I said, my farm is wired with 60 amp to 1950 standards, no ground wires anywhere, and overloaded & all. Dad did some additions that are questionable.... I know how it goes. I'm not trying to be a nagging nellie.

I'm just not comfortable with the direction this plan is going. Way too many things wrong in your plan to make this look good by the end. $500 would get you a good plan, much better electricity....

--->Paul

There are laws governing septics and wells. Other than that they are very loose.
Only housing inspection is to be sure you are not using the septic in a way not specified when you submitted the plans.



I dont even know where 4 boxes came in?
I am only having to install 2 boxes, one maine one and one in a trailer that had it's removed.

Danger? This is interesting. What is going on?
If you use the right cable and breakers how is it dangerious? The only danger is tripping a breaker a lot.

I am not leaving things un-grounded.
The transformer is the "electric company's" not mine. They put all that in.

220v or 110v...
I plan to run 2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground to each trailer, that should be 220v to each. Maybe I am getting confused but it sounds like people are starting to make this harder than it needs to be.

I am simply taking 100amp 220v and using a breaker box to split it up evenly to each trailer. I would just use a junction box but I would think that would be an obvious fire hazard.

As far as I know each trailer currently has 100amp boxes (except of course the trailer that is missing one). I will have to check before I start.

Conduit is sized to fit certain cables so that is not hard. I know I am not allowed to run a double insulator in conduit. Cable gauge will be used that will meet the distance and maximum load expected (plus overhead).


If there is danger then please explain. I don't see it since I am not planning to run 14gauge wire to carry my loads 100 feet. I know that the cable and such need to be adjusted to correctly carry the loads. all I see is that the loads may make it hard on people to use electricity.


Mike

I did not mean to pay to have it done, but you may be wise to pay some one for some advice that can see the situation up front and what each trailer needs and the correct materials to do it right,

most all of us are money short, and to put out the bucks for some one else to do the work is against most of us on the board here if we can do it our selfs,

I have wired and built things for 30 years, wired homes and trailers and shops and took care of a former military station converted to a college for a few years
(under the cover of either the home owner or a electrician friend or working for,) my son in law is a licensed electrician,

I am not saying I know it all or that I am even right,
but you have described situations that do not seem to "normal" to many and how things are supplied in other areas of the country, and I do not know of a new 120 entrance going into any building in the last 50 years,

will it work as you have described ?
It will probably function and work,
you could probably just run from the main panel a piece of Cable, "Romex" 10-2WG, and get some power to the trailers and put a 30 amp breaker on it,
but I would not think that is a very good way to do it. on any form of a permanent basis. IMO.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I just want you and your family to be safe and to have a system that is up to your needs and will not cost you more in the future,

I have scrimped and saved and reused and recycled for years, and (yes for my self I have used used electrical boxes, and breakers, (when I ran 3 phase on the farm here, for the walk in coolers and freezer and the lathes and the mills)), I use all used boxes and breakers, and my three phase transfer switch on my generator is a used unit, save big bucks, literally thousands of dollars, but it is wired according to code, and any time I have cut corners in the past on my own electrical needs I have all ways wished I had not, as it usually cost me more in the long run,

and temporary stuff so many times becomes the permanent installation, (I know the saying well, "were going to change that when we get time", it is amazing 20 years later still have not found time).

Well in 5 years something had better change because that is when the building permit for the house expires

I know the whole situation is insane. But there isnt much I can do about that.

We have made the decision to go to 200amp service and will be calling to have them change it before it is installed.

With 200amp they have to come out and take a look before they will hook it up.
Not because of laws but because they don't want me blowing their lines.

I am not mad (I know it sounds like it) but there is just a ton to do and very little time left.
We are scheduled to leave here (PA) on the 19th of april to move to the land.

We will not have water or septic, we may or may not have the electricity up there by then. This is the ultimate survivor island lol.

I don't think anyone in the family thinks it is going to be easy. We are basically camping out for the summer in trailers.

My concern about the electricity is that it provide basic needs (lighting and scheduled washing machine use) and not cause a fire or blow up anything plugged into it.

It sounds insane I know.
Here is a link to "the sotry" lol.
http://homesteadingtoday.com/showthr...813#post740813

Mike

Here is an update.
I got the paper work out for the contract with the "electric company".

It is single-phase, three wire, sixty cycles, 120/240 volts.

So I am not dealing with three-phase circuiting.

Microwave ovens take 10+ amps
The compressor motor on the refrigerator draws a lot more than its rated load on start-up.
Vaccum cleaners will easily suck 10+ amps from the wall...they pride themselves on their power consumption.
A 60 Watt light bulb sucks 0.5 amps. 10 of these bad boys per trailer and you are sucking some serious power.
A 14 Watt compact flourescent will suck 0.125 amps.
Televisions suck 2 amps or so.
Computers can suck 2 amps or so.
Cordless phones, AC/DC converters, wired smoke detectors all suck power continuously.
A KitchenAid mixer draws 325 Watts, or 2.7 Amps.
Ceiling fans vary from 25 Watts on low to 120 Watts on high, or 0.25 up to 1.0 Amps.
Coffee makers pull 900 Watts, 7.5 Amps.
Hand Irons pull 1000 Watts, 8.3 Amps.
Toasters pull 1150 Watts, 9.5 Amps

You will be popping the 100 Amp main breaker every time a refrigerator or kicks on. You will have to time share microwaves and vaccum cleaners. It will get very old, very fast. 100 Amps just is not enough power for 20 or so people, even without electric ranges, A/C, hot water, heat.

Put in the 200 Amp main, and feed 100 Amp service to each of the sub-panels.

We have decided to go 200amp.

If they would all be popping then how can older trailer parks have each trailer on 60amp lines. It would take 25, 75 watt lights to use 15.6 amps.

I know it sounds crazy, I am not denying it.
But we pretty much are in the position of 'we will do what needs to be done to make it work'.

I REALLY do appreciate all the input. I don't want anyone thinking I dont.
With the 200amp service they will check it to make sure it is safe for their service before they turn it on. Also I may FIND some money to have someone come out and check my work.

Mike

200 amp service is a good idea, maybe the power company can supply a meter base that has distribution for 8 breakers included in the base. 4 wires to each trailer is good, sized according to the breaker that feeds them.

Check the trailer panels to make sure the neutral and grounds aren't connected. Some older homes were wired with grounds and neutrals all connected on a common buss, and if your panels are like that you'll need a ground kit to split off the grounds. Don't forget ground rod at each trailer and pole.

Sorry if I caused any confusion with my other post....I was trying to say that if you're careful the 100 amp would work, and it would be a waste of money to size all the trailer wiring to take a 100 amps. Never intended anything but 230 v service to each trailer.

Dave

I am sorry if I cause any confusion as well, that was not my intent,

but the statement keep coming up, "use cable from there to the trailers good for 100amp (110)" and it sounds or sounded like you were only going to desire to run a 110 volt service to each trailer, and not a 220 volt service at each trailer, (I still am not 100% understanding your desire here).

MY hope is your planning on running a 220volt service to each trailer, at your desired amperage,

I think that the statement of "good for 100amp (110)" threw up red flags, giving me and I think others, your understanding of the needs and safety and the quality that you might be attempting to do.

from the last few posts I think you have a getter grasp on it than was at first being conveyed,

ANd I do hope you the best.

OK, here goes. Since you've decided to put in ONE 200amp service, I would think and treat it as ONE residence. Since no one has any money to make each of their trailors 200amps, then you must compromise big time.

Just like one house, have one laundry room & one kitchen (share). And I don't think I would put more than 2 outlets in the other trailors. Just pull-string lights.
My house has 8 huge rooms, 6 have 2 outlets per room and 1 overhead pull-string light. Your "house" would consist of 8 rooms, each room a trailor. Just make one trailor, the best one, a lodge of sorts, a meeting-eating-washing-shower trailor, even with a water heater. Could be fun! Don't see any harm in the other trailors having lights or a radio or small TV or computer (just like a bedroom). You each could 'go home' to your bedroom trailors, and still have it feel private. Make coffee in those huge party coffeemakers, and eveyone can take 'push pots' of coffee back to their trailors & food. Our house has 2 deep freezers, you could freeze soda pop bottles for individual coolers in the other trailors (bedrooms). We have one outside outlet by the box, and our outdoor woodfurnance runs off that, with no problems. (squirell cage fan)

In my office room here, I have 2 computers & a TV-Satalitte box & over head pull-string light on one wire. But I wouldn't plug in the coffee pot in this room.

It might work good for you all, and be safe too. Just think, there would ALWAYS be something cookin in the lodge to eat, what with all those people. Plus, each 'family' could have a computer & TV. (wireless routers for internet) You'd just all have to agree to not plug whatevers into the other trailors. Just throwing out ideas here.

No, Im sorry. First I wasnt clear, I didn't mean 110v when I put that (110) in I was not thinking and was showing that I was also including a amps overhead. That was totally cofusing and dumb. Afraid to say it, I think Im getting sick... GRRRRRRRRRR. When I start to get sick I get sloppy lol.

Anyway, ALL the information shared here has helped a huge amount.

I really do mean it, thanks everyone
Mike