My dog is in heat!
 

I have what is probably a dumb question but will ask it anyway. My half Border Collie half Scotch collie is in heat. One friend has a Border Collie and would like to breed to my female. My other friend has a Sheltie and would like to breed to my dog. What would happen if I bred her to both males during this heat period? Would some pups be Three quarter border collie and one quarter scotch collie ? Would some pups be half sheltie and one quarter scotch collie and one quarter Border Collie. Would it hurt her to breed to both dogs. I figure dogs running loose must breed to more than one male during a heat period. Anyone know the answer? <Linda

Some of the dogs in the litter will have one father and some will have the other. Depending on the timing, of course. It could be that all of the ova are already fertilized by the time that the second male dog arrives on the scene.

It would not hurt your dog. However, you should be very, very certain that all of these puppies will have homes before you deliberately breed them. No sense in bringing dogs into the world if they are just going to wind up at 'puppy Auchwitz' (local shelter that will put them down).

I wish that there were some kind of birth control pill that could be given to dogs which would result in their only having 2 puppies to a litter. It would make decisions like this so much easier.

-Jack

Sorry, but i agree with Wind in her Hair. Please don't breed your dog just because your friends want to use their dog at stud! It's not the right reason to do it. There are sooooo many unwanted dogs, please don't add to them by breeding irresponsibly.

Carol K

Sorry I upset you with my question. I should clarify a few things. First whenever I wanted a dog for a pet or a cat for a pet I head to the local shelter and adopt one and have it spayed. The dog I have now is not only a pet and part of the family but is a working farm dog. She gaurds the farm, herds the animals, kills rats and generally looks after her territory. Dogs with these qualities in my little part of the world are hard to find and if you do are very expensive. Both persons wanting to breed their males are responsible people with working dogs. Both have dogs that are getting older which is why they would want another one from a good working dog. The reason I wondered about breeding her to both males in one heat period was because I don't want two litters of puppies such as the case if I bred her to the Sheltie now and later in another heat period to the Border Collie. With one litter depending on how many she has I have placements for five. Two from the male dogs owners, one for ourselves plus two other people. My dog was one of nine. If she has nine I need good farm homes for four. Shelties, Border Collies and Scottish Collies all make good farm dogs . If my dog was a dumb but lovable mutt I would not do this. But we had many dogs; all lovable; over the years but not smart when it came to working. I was fortunate to get this dog and there won't be anymore like her as her mother died last year. We are interested in preserving a working type farm collie that is also a good family dog. Because I am concerned about an overabundance of puppies I really want to breed her only once. If we keep two dogs there will be one to carry on if anything should happen to one. The two people are not only responsible dog owners but good friends. As for shelter puppies and cats ;I love them all and help support our local shelter. Thanks to the internet and adoptions out of province our shelter puts down few dogs. Well one thing for sure I only have a few days to make up my mind what to do. Thanks to all for their input. Linda

Bravo Wind In Her Hair.

Sorry but I don't know why a person would want to breed a mix breed dog just because it is a good farm dog.
Just because she is smart & a good farm dog, does not mean her off springs will...

If the father of these pup have any health problems or your dog ( hips, eyes, heart ) the poor pups will be the ones to suffer.

Ok, I'll try to keep this as polite as possible. If you don't even know the basic biology of dog breeding, you DO NOT NEED TO BREED A DOG. There are millions of fine dogs and puppies out there who are killed every year because clueless people with unaltered animals breed them for all sorts of silly reasons. There are also millions of dogs and puppies out there who have genetic defects because their parents were bred by clueless people for all sorts of silly reasons. No matter what your individual reasoning is, there's no way around the fact that you'd be fertilizing the plague of unwanted animals if you bred your dog under the circumstances described in your post. Do the world a favor and get her spayed instead, hm? Your friends can get replacement dogs at the shelter or from breed rescue groups or from a concientious breeder.

Do yourself and the dog a favor and have her spayed. She will have many less health problems and you will not have the problem of getting ride of mixed breed pups. Myself and others on this board are involved with rescue groups and to often see what happens to these pups. There are so many good dogs out there just waiting for someone to give them a loving home.

The people who are happy with their present dogs should really go back to where they got them in the first place.

As to what sort of mix you would get in any puppy is anybody's guess. If the mother is a border collie and the father is a sheltie, then each puppy is 50% border collie and 50% sheltie. In the next generation, let's say your dog is bred to a sheltie, the puppies will not be 25% border collie and 75% sheltie. All you can guarentee is that the puppies will be at least 50% sheltie. Any puppy may be barky like a sheltie, or quiet like a border collie.

You don't really know what qualities the puppies will have because there is not a "line" behind them. Even within the same breed, different "lines" will have different temperments and capablilities. This is certainly true of border collies. My dog is a border collie from superb working lines, but he is quite different from his siblings. One is in no way a herding dog and lives as a pet. The other three went to herding homes. My dog is calm compared to the three herding dogs. These other three may make fine trial dogs, but I wanted a good farm dog (which he is).

I think you are getting in over your head. And, unless you have money from the people who SAY they want one of the puppies, you may end up with nine homeless puppies... sad but true.

I was taking a load out to the new place today. About half-way there I saw stopped traffic. There in the road was a nice looking Aussie mix. He was obviously looking for his people. A lady had stopped, and was just as obviously waiting for traffic to get by so she could help this dog. His attitude seemed to be that this was where his people let him out, so here was where he was staying. HOW SAD... :waa:

He was gone when I made the trip back...I was relieved not to see his body on the side of the road. I can't believe how casually people get rid of their loyal companions. A dog is a lifetime committment.....well, to ME, anyway.

While I'm not experienced with dogs as many of you certainly are, I believe the message should be RESPONSIBILITY. So often times, people throw logic out the window, decide upon matters by which they are NOT well versed and in the final analysis, "hope for the best" and plow forward anyway.

I agree with many here..... for heaven's sake, there are unlimited numbers of great animals out there just begging for a good home. I had always longed for a doxie. I did my research and dealt with a rescue society and ended up with not one, but two fantastic dogs. They're healthy, mentally sound etc. and I feel good knowing I have provided a good home to existing dogs who needed homes.

Common sense is KEY and animals will always suffer as people continue to think of themselves.

Linda, some of the pups would have 1 father, and the others the other father. Either one father or the other. You should be able to tell by the apperance of the pups, color, etc. But no pup will have both fathers.

Actually, this is being done in the Border Collie world by some now, and they DNA the pups to determine the sire, and then all the pups are registered according to the DNA results. One litter instead of 2, easier on the mum, and sooner to see which lines click the best with the mums lines.

Also I've been reading for years on the internet about Farm Collies, and those folks really care about the dogs, traits, working abililty, temperment, etc. They are trying to bring back and establish the true all around farm collie from yesteryear. Those dogs that hold all the traits desired are great dogs to have around the farm, doing it all so to speak. My big male BC does everything on the list except tree a squirrel. :) But I've never taught him to do that, he might with work, but we have no squirrels up here. I am curious as to the Scotch Collie. Is it that the dog was mostly black with very little white?

I would say if you have homes for most of the pups and feel confident that you can place the others in working farm homes, and if your vet thinks your dog is up to having a litter, go for it. I realize a lot of people on this thread think you are an idiot, and careless breeding is cruel and idiotic. But contrary to what some of the above posters think, what you are thinking about doesn't sound idiotic to me.
Its become pretty clear that the idea that "The only way to KNOW what you are going to get from breeding dogs is to stick with purebred responsible kennel club sanctioned pedigreed blah, blah, blah..." is bankrupt. Purebred dog breeds are on the fast track to extinction because of inbreeding and its getting worse and worse instead of better. It doesn't matter how much genetic testing you do, how much "severe culling and selection of breeding animals" the fact remains that the gene pools of purebred dogs are so shallow you can walk across them and not get your feet wet. This is because when you start out with a small group of officially sanctioned dogs that become the founding members of a "breed" and never allow any new blood to come in you have what is called a "Genetic Bottleneck" then you add in show dog breeding for conformation which changes as fads come and go, you get certain dogs which have an overwhelming majority of progeny, so your gene pool gets smaller cause a few dogs are having all the offspring. And pretty soon it doesn't matter if you are linebreeding or THINK you are outcrossing to another "bloodline" you are still playing go fish with only five cards in the deck.

The beauty of breeding working dogs is instinctive behavior is highly heritable, so if your dog is a good worker, and your neighbors dogs are good workers, there is a good chance with some training so will the offspring. And the fact that you are crossing some crossbreds just means you've got some nice hybrid vigor. The kind of breeding you are doing has been done with farmdogs forever, and lots of useful animals have resulted. If there is a demand for working pups and you have a mating that will supply it. Go for it. The people on this thread who are objecting are doing so from experiences with the abandoned dog problem. It is a terrible problem and I don't see any way to fix it, but spaying your dog and getting a pitbull mix from the shelter, even if he makes a great pet and companion, doesn't provide you with a good farmdog. It is not irresponsible to breed a dog if you have a goal for the litter and homes for pups, regardless of their pedigree.

I know most people on this thread would disagree. To talk to some folks who are doing what you are talking about go to the American Working Farmcollie Association. Just google farmcollie or AWFA and you should find them. They will understand what you are trying to do.

Tim

A breeder ( if you want to call him that) of Goldens had a litter of pups. The Dam died after 2 days after giving birth.
The breeder didn't want to put up with the crying & feeding a litter of 8
Dumped them in the Humane Society.. The Breed rescue took the litter.... I adopted one at 8 weeks old.

When she came to her forever home with us.. she looked like the perfect puppy in GReat health.
She is not even 1 year old, this poor girl has a overbite,one toe missing, eye problems with cataracts & other eye problems
She has drops put in her eyes everyday, goes to a eye specialist every 4 months ( he is out of state)
Might need a very expense operation on her eyes ( About $4,000.00) each eye.

Another pup from this litter was the runt born with a crooked leg.They didn't think she was going to
make it. She is now in a wonderful home her leg is fine.

When our little girl came to her forever home with us.. she looked like the perfect puppy

What would have happened to our girl if she was sold from the so call Breeder?
Would the puppy buyer do all they can for her?
Would they have spayed her?
Or would she had been dumped,or euthenized? Would the so call breeder take her back?

She has a heart of Gold.. a real love, loves the farm animals.. Guess I should breed her?
Of course NOT

She is spayed.....

What are ruining the purebred dogs are Puppy Mills & Backyard Breeders who don't give a darn about the
dogs.. Just looking to make money.. They are the ones who are hurting all the Responsible Breeders.....

Puppy mills are bad, irresponsible breeding is bad, backyard breeders are neither necessarily bad or good. The first poster is not being irresponsible, they asked a question and gotted called an idiot for contemplating breeding their dog. Breeding dogs is not a sin, crossbreeding dogs is not a sin either. God did not invent dog breeds people did. Purebred pedigrees are not in the bible, they are something that was invented less than 200 years ago. I don't believe that RESPONSIBLE breeders really learn much when they study genetics and breeding. When I visit dog breeding forums for different breeds everyone likes to talk about breeding for color and conformation and you see very learned posts about the heritability of certain traits. But they all seem to gloss over really important stuff like INBREEDING COEFFICIENTS or GENETIC BOTTLENECKS, GENETIC DRIFT, FOUNDER EFFECT. There is a myth in the purebred dog world that you can breed away from genetic defects by rigorous culling. This is only true if you have sufficient genetic diversity in your gene pool. And I defy you to pick a breed that can be said about. The main flaw in the entire concept of purebred animals is the idea of a closed registry. When the founders of the pure bred dog movement started the registries and decided "These dogs are Purebred Colorado Whalehounds", it didn't do anything to them. Their whalehounds were bred "like to like" and produced whalehounds that were even whalehoundier than any they'd had before, maybe there was even a really outstanding "Champion Lionsheart of Greeley Whalesbane" who was such an amazing whale killing machine that everyone with a b*tch bred to him. So even though there were quite a few different male whalehounds back in those days, nowadays pretty much every modern whalehound is one of his descendents, probably many multiples of times, and whalehounds these days are a pretty sad bunch of genetic disasters, lots of breeders talk about crossing different "lines" to stop all the congenital frightfulness that breeding whalehounds has become but there is no such thing. You can talk about bloodlines till your blue in the face but the fact remains that good old Lionheart is everybody's great great grandpa. What is the solution? Outcrossing, GASP! Its so irresposible! You don't know what your going to get! Umm, how about healthier dogs? I had to laugh about the above post stating that crossbred litters are often much larger than purebred ones. DO YOU KNOW WHY? Its because those missing puppies in the purebred litters DIED shortly after conception due to LETHAL RECESSIVE allele (gene) combinations. How can that be considered a good thing?

Do any of the people who flamed Linda have farm dogs that actually do meaningful work on their working farms? (I don't mean hobby farms where you get the sheep in order to give the border collie something to do.) If so, where did you get your pups, and can I have that breeder's number? In my part of the world, it's nearly impossible to find a good candidate for all around farm work e.g. herding, ratting, and guarding, in part because breeders don't tend to select for a mixture of those qualities anymore. Sounds like Linda has a great working farm dog and farms that want her dog's pups, and rather than flame her I think we should thank her for preserving the line.

OK, now, go ahead and flame me.

-Farmy

My thoughts exactly! I read all these replies earlier and just shook my head in amazement. I can guarantee you that I will NEVER EVER buy or adopt a purebred dog. Every single one of them that I have been around has health problems. Give me a healthy hard-working mutt any day.

Just to clarify, you did also neuter/spay the working dogs that you kept, right?

Quote: Wind in Her Hair - Today at 01:00 PM

Yes they are -if they are considering breeding and do not even know the basics of animal reproduction! What ELSE don't they know or haven't considered...thats my issue and thats why I said they would be an "idiot" to breed that dog - based on the information that they DID NOT HAVE.



Put two dogs together and they have puppies, probably 99 times out of a hundred. Dogs have been having puppies for thousands of years with very little input from humans. Trust me, you don't have to hold your dog's paw while she gives birth. She knows what she is doing. If the dog dies while giving birth, such is life. Anyone who spends a thousand bucks giving their dog a C-S needs to spend a little time at a sick kids hospital seeing how their money could be spent.

Pete

How does one learn the basics of animal reproduction? By considering breeding an animal.

Are breeders born knowing all this stuff? Do they learn it before they consider breeding an animal?

:haha: So true! I watch these "That's my Baby" shows on animal planet on TV. It drives me nuts! "Oh, the babies aren't shooting out like rockets, I'll have to start pulling them out! Oo, Oo, maybe a C-Section!"

They just can't stand to let the mother do her job. I have only had pups here once, my dog was pregnant when I got her. She was fat, then I couldn't find her. She was behind the hedges with 5 little ones, nursing them with no help from anyone. If a dog has any problems carrying or birthing a litter, she should never be bred again. Don't carry on the genes.

You didn't read what I wrote properly. I said before they CONSIDER breeding an animal.

I didn't learn all about raising and breeding mandarin ducks until I CONSIDERED doing it.

If I did I would be quite odd. I'm not going to learn all about something I'm not even thinking of doing. Get what I mean here? You need interest before you begin learning. :)

Wind in Her Hair, do you even know who Linda is? She has lived on a farm for over 20 years, almost totally self-sufficient. I think she knows a little bit about breeding! Maybe you need to find out who you are blasting BEFORE you begin. Gee Whiz. We have heard it all allready. Not every thread about breeding dogs needs to be taken over by the rescue people. We should be allowed to talk and folks should BE allowed to ask questions. This is a Homesteading forum, for crying out loud.

That is true. She should be considering at least weeks from now.

Hi Everyone! I certainly never intended to upset so many people with my original question!! I may not explain my self very well but ofcourse I know the basics of dogs or other animals breeding. I had never considered breeding my female to two dogs until it was brought up to me . It was a sincere question and I see from some posts breeders are doing it then DNA testing to see who Dad is!! To put everyones mind at ease first: my femake is two years old and this is her third heat. I did not want her bred younger. She is vet checked and very healthy. She is half Border Collie and half Scotch Collie which are both Collies and both herd dogs. The dam of my female was a sheep herd dog and the sire was a cattle dog. The reason the dam was bred to a Border Collie was because there wasn't any unrelated Scotch Collies available. It wasn't crossing breeds but crossing of kinds of collies within the collie breed. For sure I wouldn't cross a collie with for instance; a beagle which is a totally different breed bred for different purpose. Shetland Sheep Dogs were originally herd dogs and similar in appearance to the Scotch Collie. Breeders started breeding the Shetland Sheep Dogs to small Lassie type collies because they liked the Lassie types appearance. Our modern Shelties [short for Shetland Sheep Dog} look very similar to the Lassie type rough collie. Trouble is when breeding for appearance they have about bred the herding instinct out of the Shelties. Border Collies, Shelties and Scotch Collies and Lassie types are all collie breeds. Just different types within the breed. My females dam was black with only a little white collar and brown on her feet. My husband had Scotch Collies growing up on a farm and although the type and conformation was the same for every dog they had; the colors varied from dark to chestnut brown. I decided a year ago I would breed my female when she was two . I believe in preserving genetic qualities of exceptional dogs which my Molly is. She is exceptional in temperment, intelligence, instinct, herding ability and general learning ability as were her parents. Forty years ago there were many good farm dogs and many Scotish [ Old farm Collies } in the area where I live. Now there is none. The reason is no one let them reproduce. I have no intention of raising hordes of puppies, Only keeping alive the genes of an exceptional farm dog. I am beginning to see only people who depend on a good working dog possibly will understand how valuable a good dog is on a farm.By the way she will be bred to the Border Collie and not the Sheltie. Since Molly is half Border Collie and the male comes from a long line of working dogs he will be the best match. Although the Sheltie can herd he doesn't have a history of farm dogs. Molly's Scotish Collie dam came from a long line of cattle herd dogs., and her sire from a long line of sheep herding dogs so the puppies will have a very good possibility of being herd dogs. That is as sure as you can be about anything. Yes ;I am responsible and will make sure any puppies will have good homes that I don't keep . Some have homes already waiting. I have owned eleven dogs in my lifetime. Some were purebred and most were mutts and all were spayed or neutered. All lived to be 11 to 15 years of age. The only two I had problems with was the purebred Sheltie which developed eplilepsy and a puirebred Duck Tolling Retriever that had temperment problems because of inbreeding. We live on a farm and over the years have raised our own vegetable seeds to preserve old varieties. We are carful breeding goats not to inbreed and breed for strong conformation as well has good milking qualities. We raise our own chicks to get the best quality hens that have the instinct to set eggs and mother chicks. Not all hatchery chickens have this instinct anymore. So to me it is no different with preserving good farm dogs. We also have three cats, one is 11 and two are eight and all are spayed.
I appreciate everyones input and have a nice day. Linda

All of the many collie breeds can carry the genes for collie eye anomaly - a complex of defects that can produce blind puppies from apparently normal parents. Both breeding partners should be checked by a veterinary opthalmologist ( a "CERF" exam) before being bred.

Personally I believe it is none of anyones business whether or not someone has their dog bred. If I had a good dog I would breed it also. And if I was in Linda's shoes with a stellar dog I would have two litters of puppies.

I also think that the opening question was a great question.

have a nice day.

mule

yes! but a reply can be considerate toward the question asked.

I think we have a serious problem in this country of people wanting to mind everyone else's business for them, and inflict one's own morals and standards on others. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with deliberately, thoughtfully, breeding working dogs with homes already in mind for the puppies. The dogs are the same type and background (i.e. all of collie ancestry, all herding and farm dogs), so the situation isn't even remotely comparable to some of the crazy crosses people do between dogs that aren't of the same type or working character at all. I do realize that there is a serious problem with people having puppies and then not taking responsibility for what they've produced, but that isn't the case here, and I don't see the need to jump all over her for asking a legitimate question. I would suspect that someone who raises livestock for a living PROBABLY has some basic knowledge of genetics.

I also hope that the original poster looks into the American Working Farmcollie Association, as we'd love to talk to her about her dog with the 'Scotch Collie' ancestry. The old 'Scotch Collies' are almost extinct, as you, Wind in Her Hair, ought to know if you were really as knowledgable about dogs as you'd like to think you are, and there are a few people who are trying to save what's left of them. "Purebred", registered dogs became the fad back at the beginning of the twentieth century, and since the old Scotch Collies were "just" the farm dog, they didn't have fancy pedigrees or a registry, and they were largely replaced by Rough Collies, Aussies, and Border Collies. These are all good dogs, but the old farm collies, the Scotch Collies, fill a special niche on the small mixed farm, and some of us are trying to bring them back. So, if the original poster reads this (and hasn't been chased off this thread by all the nasty and totally unnecessary responses), I hope she'll get ahold of the AWFA. Someone near her may have a Scotch Collie male for her to breed to in the future.

Kathleen

BlueJuniperFarm, it's pretty easy to come in after the original poster has amended her question with explanations and call the responses "nasty and totally unnecessary". The original post conveyed a serious lack of knowledge and a desire to contribute to a known problem. People responded to that. You are responding to the explanation the poster offered after reading the responses. You have a good point - as does she, after all -, but it's not exactly fair to chastise others for answering to a poorly expressed question.

It would have been good if people would have elicited some more information from her *before* they started jumping all over her. It is too bad that here, on a homesteading forum, people can't have a little more sense. I hope, in future, that people *will* be more thoughtful, instead of jumping in with knee-jerk emotional reactions on too little information (on any topic, not just breeding dogs).

And, Linda. come visit the AWFA list at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AWFA/?yguid=109437082 ! :)

We know what you are trying to do, and applaud whole-heartedly!

Kathleen

Hi Everyone, Just wanted you to know I am not upset with anyones reply to my original question as I didn't give much information about myself ; I only asked about breeding a female to two males during a single heat period. Forty-seven years ago my Dad and I raised purebred Beagles, later Blood Hounds, Bassets, and much later German Shepherds. We were into AkC reg stock and shipped pups all over the USA. One thing we never did was cross breed and never heard of using two dogs to breed one female . Much later in the 70's I raised toy Poodles CKC reg. as I married a Canadian and now live in Nova Scotia. Back then I never heard of anyone using two males to breed one female either. I also didn't cross breed the toy poodles. The question posed to me about using two males was a new one to me therefore I asked on the forum. No offence taken and I apologize for not being more through in explaining my question. I also stopped raising toy poodles because the gene pool was too shallow . Purebred stock was expensive and sellers just don't want to sell their best stock. Times change and now I have learned from the posts there are breeders using more than one male to breed one female. Considering all input I did tell the people wanting pups Molly will be bred with the Border Collie only.
Where we live the population is quite sparse compared to many other places and not all that many dog breeders of any particular breed. I looked all last year for a male farm collie to breed to and couldn't locate any in the vicinity of where we live . Also realize we are 90% self-sufficient homesteaders or farmers. We live for the most part outside the money system. We do earn some money and save it to use for things we can't produce, and must pay like taxes.Also; although my husband does most of his vetinarian work there has been a few occasions we had to call a vet or need to buy worm meds, pennicillian etc. So money is saved for such things. My approach to all things is ;How am I going to reach the goal I want or need without spending money which I mostly live without? Ours is a pioneer mindset. Grow the seed from which you produce the food you eat. Breed quality animals and cull to get the best and sturdiest breeds not necessarily reg breeds but animals that produce healthy offspring and milk and meat. Grow the feed the animals eat also. As I said before I had 11 pet dogs in my life all mutts except two and all spayed or nutered. We wanted a farm dog for years but wouldn't fork over the hundreds of dollars most people want for Border and other collies. So it was one of those things we kept in the back of our mind. Then along come Molly. Call it luck or fate or a blessing but she was the one pup no one wanted. The reason was she didn't have the pretty markings of her brothers and sisters. She is white down to her white eyelashes and has black spots on her ears and various parts of her body. She was really comical looking and didn't have the outstanding beauty of her litter mates. When I met all the puppies I first noticed how quiet she was and curious about everything. I brought her home and gave her to my husband for an early anniversary present. What joy she has been! I kept in touch with the person I got her from who keeps tabs on Molly's littermates. All are doing well and some are smarter than others. But isn't that true of all animals and children for that matter? What else is there to know about me? Well I really appreciate this web site and the information and things people discuss. I have had an environmental illness all my life and was very sickly for many years until figuring out the problem and avoiding things that adversely affect me. I am extremely allergic to plants, grass and flowers and go outside mostly in the fall and winter. My husband does the gardening and I do the preserving . Certain things I can't handle like pea pods. Peas are alright once they are out of the pod. So my grandson shells peas for me. I can't go in the barn much because of the ammonia smell and hay. So here I am on a farm and confined to the house much of the year. I don't go visiting much because of smells in other people's homes. Also can't go anywhere like stores for more than a few minutes. My husband is in the house more in the winter and I enjoy that. But now it is time to put shoes on the horse and head to the ocean to haul rockweed for the fields and garden. Then to the woods to start getting wood cut for another winter. Until the end of March I can go with him. Then as he starts spreading manure and preparing to plant ; my life will be in the house with brief trips outside.; until the leaves fall from the trees in the fall. On a farm all things have a season to be got at and done. If done on time all goes as well as can be expected considering interference from the weather. My daughter brought this computer to our home and hooked it up to the internet for her son who lives with us. I think I use it more than him! Considering I am alone alot it has opened up a whole new world to me and I have met many nice people. Now I think all of you know a whole lot more about me than I know about you! Have a nice day and forgive me if I ask anymore dumb questions. Linda

Crossing two dogs of different breeds produces a dog, not a hybrid. Crossing a horse with a donkey produces a hybrid. A mare crossed with a jack produces a mule. The mule is a hybrid. It has the best traits of the horse and of the donkey. When a jennet is crossed with a stallion, the result is a hinny. You often hear of mules, but rarely of a hinny. Few purposely breed for a hinney because the hinny does not represent the best of the horse and the donkey. The mule has more strength, endurance, intelligence and disease resistance than the hinny.

Even in crossing two animals of the same species, you need to know which traits the sire passes on and which traits the dam passes on. For instance, with sheep, the coat is a gift from the father. In chickens, egg laying production is from the rooster.

Crossing two different breeds of dogs does not necessarily result in healthier puppies. If the parents have genetic problems, there is a chance that the offspring will have the problems as well. There are plenty of mutts with hip displasia and other problems passed on by their parents. For healthy puppies you must start with healthy parents. Hybrid vigor is a myth.

People who are serious dog breeders have their breeding stock tested for problems commonly seen in those breeds. With Linda's cross breeding, she would be concerned with collie eye and collie nose, and consult literature to find out what other problems the border collie, sheltie and farm collie (rough coated collie?) have. And you do know not to breed two blue dogs, right?

Alright I reckon I'll put my 2 cents worth in. I've read all these posts thoroughly and I see both sides to this discussion. First off:

Do I think by breeding 2 dogs to one bitch is right in this case? No.
I think if you are going to breed pick one of the other. Choosing this depends on the animals health, lines(if known), comparatible size to the bitch. Risk factors on both sides. And above all common sense.

I worked with a vet for 4 years. We worked very closely with several humane societies in our county. We are a very poor county in the state and of Virginia. Hunting is a HUGE event, and the amount of hunting dogs that run add to the number of homeless dogs and puppies. We have one of the larger homeless dog/cat rate and a very high euthanasia rate within the county animal shelter. Unfortunate as it is, it is necessary. I'm sure I raised eye brows with that one however, it is necessary to attempt to gain control over the unwanted population for sake of disease, defects and general health and wellness for both human and animal. Is it sad, yes, but we have only ourselves to blame.

I believe a few of you may of jumped on this poster a little off handedly. However I agree with your points. If an animal is homeless I either find them or I swear the local critters have a secret message line that directs them to our house. Every animal is spayed/neutered, vaccinated and either stays with us or finds an appropriate home. I also still work with the humane societies.

However my husband wanted an Australian Cattle Dog about a year ago. I looked and looked but no one in this area has them. So I went by the vets office where I used to work and they had a beautiful little Catahoula(probally has something else in there but mostly Cat.) girl in the back. Well I snatched her up. She has been a very good, very valuable working dog to us. Therefore we bred her to an Australian Cattle Dog. Hopefully we will have puppies soon.

I disagree with the person who said just because a dog is a good dog does not mean you should breed them. Yes and no. There are many many good dogs in shelters out there, but if you had a dog that went above and beyond dogs you've had before then I have nothing wrong with that in breeding. True it won't be the same but for sentimental value and for a stronger line there is nothing wrong with that.

Now... I have a major major problem with this idea of well this friend wants to breed to my bitch, and so does this one. Yes dogs naturally mate with multiple partner dogs when not controlled by human overseeing(and sometimes even with that it does) But why, why would you do that on purpose? You're taking 2 dogs, 2 diff. sizes and expecting a first time(?) bitch to succesfully whelp them? You don't always know what is in the line of your dogs, regarding size, definition, any kind of health issues. You would be doing the wrong thing here with 2 dogs. Pick one and stick to it, if this is your path of choosing. I would test the bitch, do blood work, a vaginal smear(see how the cells look, and to check her heat cycle) And update all vaccinations that need updating, worming(including hear work) about 1 month prior to mating. I know you mentioned age in the dogs, saying they were older and your concerns for carrying on with your dogs. I would get a vets approval, make sure both dogs meet the mark as far as health. Read up on this subject more, speak with your vet, know the process before you start. Education is the first step.

Over all this is your choice, do I advise it? No. Not at this time, especially when you mentioned the 2 dogs running with your bitch. You also endanger the dogs well being as well. Think 5 steps down the road okay? Do your homework, and have some real thoughtful moments over this. If you have any questions I'll happily answer them. But I think this is the wrong choice. Give another dog a chance if you can.

Forgive my fingers, hear work = heart worm