My dog is in heat!

:haha: So true! I watch these "That's my Baby" shows on animal planet on TV. It drives me nuts! "Oh, the babies aren't shooting out like rockets, I'll have to start pulling them out! Oo, Oo, maybe a C-Section!"

They just can't stand to let the mother do her job. I have only had pups here once, my dog was pregnant when I got her. She was fat, then I couldn't find her. She was behind the hedges with 5 little ones, nursing them with no help from anyone. If a dog has any problems carrying or birthing a litter, she should never be bred again. Don't carry on the genes.

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You didn't read what I wrote properly. I said before they CONSIDER breeding an animal.

I didn't learn all about raising and breeding mandarin ducks until I CONSIDERED doing it.

If I did I would be quite odd. I'm not going to learn all about something I'm not even thinking of doing. Get what I mean here? You need interest before you begin learning.

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Wind in Her Hair, do you even know who Linda is? She has lived on a farm for over 20 years, almost totally self-sufficient. I think she knows a little bit about breeding! Maybe you need to find out who you are blasting BEFORE you begin. Gee Whiz. We have heard it all allready. Not every thread about breeding dogs needs to be taken over by the rescue people. We should be allowed to talk and folks should BE allowed to ask questions. This is a Homesteading forum, for crying out loud.

That is true. She should be considering at least weeks from now.

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Hi Everyone! I certainly never intended to upset so many people with my original question!! I may not explain my self very well but ofcourse I know the basics of dogs or other animals breeding. I had never considered breeding my female to two dogs until it was brought up to me . It was a sincere question and I see from some posts breeders are doing it then DNA testing to see who Dad is!! To put everyones mind at ease first: my femake is two years old and this is her third heat. I did not want her bred younger. She is vet checked and very healthy. She is half Border Collie and half Scotch Collie which are both Collies and both herd dogs. The dam of my female was a sheep herd dog and the sire was a cattle dog. The reason the dam was bred to a Border Collie was because there wasn't any unrelated Scotch Collies available. It wasn't crossing breeds but crossing of kinds of collies within the collie breed. For sure I wouldn't cross a collie with for instance; a beagle which is a totally different breed bred for different purpose. Shetland Sheep Dogs were originally herd dogs and similar in appearance to the Scotch Collie. Breeders started breeding the Shetland Sheep Dogs to small Lassie type collies because they liked the Lassie types appearance. Our modern Shelties [short for Shetland Sheep Dog} look very similar to the Lassie type rough collie. Trouble is when breeding for appearance they have about bred the herding instinct out of the Shelties. Border Collies, Shelties and Scotch Collies and Lassie types are all collie breeds. Just different types within the breed. My females dam was black with only a little white collar and brown on her feet. My husband had Scotch Collies growing up on a farm and although the type and conformation was the same for every dog they had; the colors varied from dark to chestnut brown. I decided a year ago I would breed my female when she was two . I believe in preserving genetic qualities of exceptional dogs which my Molly is. She is exceptional in temperment, intelligence, instinct, herding ability and general learning ability as were her parents. Forty years ago there were many good farm dogs and many Scotish [ Old farm Collies } in the area where I live. Now there is none. The reason is no one let them reproduce. I have no intention of raising hordes of puppies, Only keeping alive the genes of an exceptional farm dog. I am beginning to see only people who depend on a good working dog possibly will understand how valuable a good dog is on a farm.By the way she will be bred to the Border Collie and not the Sheltie. Since Molly is half Border Collie and the male comes from a long line of working dogs he will be the best match. Although the Sheltie can herd he doesn't have a history of farm dogs. Molly's Scotish Collie dam came from a long line of cattle herd dogs., and her sire from a long line of sheep herding dogs so the puppies will have a very good possibility of being herd dogs. That is as sure as you can be about anything. Yes ;I am responsible and will make sure any puppies will have good homes that I don't keep . Some have homes already waiting. I have owned eleven dogs in my lifetime. Some were purebred and most were mutts and all were spayed or neutered. All lived to be 11 to 15 years of age. The only two I had problems with was the purebred Sheltie which developed eplilepsy and a puirebred Duck Tolling Retriever that had temperment problems because of inbreeding. We live on a farm and over the years have raised our own vegetable seeds to preserve old varieties. We are carful breeding goats not to inbreed and breed for strong conformation as well has good milking qualities. We raise our own chicks to get the best quality hens that have the instinct to set eggs and mother chicks. Not all hatchery chickens have this instinct anymore. So to me it is no different with preserving good farm dogs. We also have three cats, one is 11 and two are eight and all are spayed.
I appreciate everyones input and have a nice day. Linda

All of the many collie breeds can carry the genes for collie eye anomaly - a complex of defects that can produce blind puppies from apparently normal parents. Both breeding partners should be checked by a veterinary opthalmologist ( a "CERF" exam) before being bred.

Personally I believe it is none of anyones business whether or not someone has their dog bred. If I had a good dog I would breed it also. And if I was in Linda's shoes with a stellar dog I would have two litters of puppies.

I also think that the opening question was a great question.

have a nice day.

mule

yes! but a reply can be considerate toward the question asked.

I think we have a serious problem in this country of people wanting to mind everyone else's business for them, and inflict one's own morals and standards on others. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with deliberately, thoughtfully, breeding working dogs with homes already in mind for the puppies. The dogs are the same type and background (i.e. all of collie ancestry, all herding and farm dogs), so the situation isn't even remotely comparable to some of the crazy crosses people do between dogs that aren't of the same type or working character at all. I do realize that there is a serious problem with people having puppies and then not taking responsibility for what they've produced, but that isn't the case here, and I don't see the need to jump all over her for asking a legitimate question. I would suspect that someone who raises livestock for a living PROBABLY has some basic knowledge of genetics.

I also hope that the original poster looks into the American Working Farmcollie Association, as we'd love to talk to her about her dog with the 'Scotch Collie' ancestry. The old 'Scotch Collies' are almost extinct, as you, Wind in Her Hair, ought to know if you were really as knowledgable about dogs as you'd like to think you are, and there are a few people who are trying to save what's left of them. "Purebred", registered dogs became the fad back at the beginning of the twentieth century, and since the old Scotch Collies were "just" the farm dog, they didn't have fancy pedigrees or a registry, and they were largely replaced by Rough Collies, Aussies, and Border Collies. These are all good dogs, but the old farm collies, the Scotch Collies, fill a special niche on the small mixed farm, and some of us are trying to bring them back. So, if the original poster reads this (and hasn't been chased off this thread by all the nasty and totally unnecessary responses), I hope she'll get ahold of the AWFA. Someone near her may have a Scotch Collie male for her to breed to in the future.

Kathleen

BlueJuniperFarm, it's pretty easy to come in after the original poster has amended her question with explanations and call the responses "nasty and totally unnecessary". The original post conveyed a serious lack of knowledge and a desire to contribute to a known problem. People responded to that. You are responding to the explanation the poster offered after reading the responses. You have a good point - as does she, after all -, but it's not exactly fair to chastise others for answering to a poorly expressed question.

It would have been good if people would have elicited some more information from her *before* they started jumping all over her. It is too bad that here, on a homesteading forum, people can't have a little more sense. I hope, in future, that people *will* be more thoughtful, instead of jumping in with knee-jerk emotional reactions on too little information (on any topic, not just breeding dogs).

And, Linda. come visit the AWFA list at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AWFA/?yguid=109437082 !

We know what you are trying to do, and applaud whole-heartedly!

Kathleen

Hi Everyone, Just wanted you to know I am not upset with anyones reply to my original question as I didn't give much information about myself ; I only asked about breeding a female to two males during a single heat period. Forty-seven years ago my Dad and I raised purebred Beagles, later Blood Hounds, Bassets, and much later German Shepherds. We were into AkC reg stock and shipped pups all over the USA. One thing we never did was cross breed and never heard of using two dogs to breed one female . Much later in the 70's I raised toy Poodles CKC reg. as I married a Canadian and now live in Nova Scotia. Back then I never heard of anyone using two males to breed one female either. I also didn't cross breed the toy poodles. The question posed to me about using two males was a new one to me therefore I asked on the forum. No offence taken and I apologize for not being more through in explaining my question. I also stopped raising toy poodles because the gene pool was too shallow . Purebred stock was expensive and sellers just don't want to sell their best stock. Times change and now I have learned from the posts there are breeders using more than one male to breed one female. Considering all input I did tell the people wanting pups Molly will be bred with the Border Collie only.
Where we live the population is quite sparse compared to many other places and not all that many dog breeders of any particular breed. I looked all last year for a male farm collie to breed to and couldn't locate any in the vicinity of where we live . Also realize we are 90% self-sufficient homesteaders or farmers. We live for the most part outside the money system. We do earn some money and save it to use for things we can't produce, and must pay like taxes.Also; although my husband does most of his vetinarian work there has been a few occasions we had to call a vet or need to buy worm meds, pennicillian etc. So money is saved for such things. My approach to all things is ;How am I going to reach the goal I want or need without spending money which I mostly live without? Ours is a pioneer mindset. Grow the seed from which you produce the food you eat. Breed quality animals and cull to get the best and sturdiest breeds not necessarily reg breeds but animals that produce healthy offspring and milk and meat. Grow the feed the animals eat also. As I said before I had 11 pet dogs in my life all mutts except two and all spayed or nutered. We wanted a farm dog for years but wouldn't fork over the hundreds of dollars most people want for Border and other collies. So it was one of those things we kept in the back of our mind. Then along come Molly. Call it luck or fate or a blessing but she was the one pup no one wanted. The reason was she didn't have the pretty markings of her brothers and sisters. She is white down to her white eyelashes and has black spots on her ears and various parts of her body. She was really comical looking and didn't have the outstanding beauty of her litter mates. When I met all the puppies I first noticed how quiet she was and curious about everything. I brought her home and gave her to my husband for an early anniversary present. What joy she has been! I kept in touch with the person I got her from who keeps tabs on Molly's littermates. All are doing well and some are smarter than others. But isn't that true of all animals and children for that matter? What else is there to know about me? Well I really appreciate this web site and the information and things people discuss. I have had an environmental illness all my life and was very sickly for many years until figuring out the problem and avoiding things that adversely affect me. I am extremely allergic to plants, grass and flowers and go outside mostly in the fall and winter. My husband does the gardening and I do the preserving . Certain things I can't handle like pea pods. Peas are alright once they are out of the pod. So my grandson shells peas for me. I can't go in the barn much because of the ammonia smell and hay. So here I am on a farm and confined to the house much of the year. I don't go visiting much because of smells in other people's homes. Also can't go anywhere like stores for more than a few minutes. My husband is in the house more in the winter and I enjoy that. But now it is time to put shoes on the horse and head to the ocean to haul rockweed for the fields and garden. Then to the woods to start getting wood cut for another winter. Until the end of March I can go with him. Then as he starts spreading manure and preparing to plant ; my life will be in the house with brief trips outside.; until the leaves fall from the trees in the fall. On a farm all things have a season to be got at and done. If done on time all goes as well as can be expected considering interference from the weather. My daughter brought this computer to our home and hooked it up to the internet for her son who lives with us. I think I use it more than him! Considering I am alone alot it has opened up a whole new world to me and I have met many nice people. Now I think all of you know a whole lot more about me than I know about you! Have a nice day and forgive me if I ask anymore dumb questions. Linda

Crossing two dogs of different breeds produces a dog, not a hybrid. Crossing a horse with a donkey produces a hybrid. A mare crossed with a jack produces a mule. The mule is a hybrid. It has the best traits of the horse and of the donkey. When a jennet is crossed with a stallion, the result is a hinny. You often hear of mules, but rarely of a hinny. Few purposely breed for a hinney because the hinny does not represent the best of the horse and the donkey. The mule has more strength, endurance, intelligence and disease resistance than the hinny.

Even in crossing two animals of the same species, you need to know which traits the sire passes on and which traits the dam passes on. For instance, with sheep, the coat is a gift from the father. In chickens, egg laying production is from the rooster.

Crossing two different breeds of dogs does not necessarily result in healthier puppies. If the parents have genetic problems, there is a chance that the offspring will have the problems as well. There are plenty of mutts with hip displasia and other problems passed on by their parents. For healthy puppies you must start with healthy parents. Hybrid vigor is a myth.

People who are serious dog breeders have their breeding stock tested for problems commonly seen in those breeds. With Linda's cross breeding, she would be concerned with collie eye and collie nose, and consult literature to find out what other problems the border collie, sheltie and farm collie (rough coated collie?) have. And you do know not to breed two blue dogs, right?

Alright I reckon I'll put my 2 cents worth in. I've read all these posts thoroughly and I see both sides to this discussion. First off:

Do I think by breeding 2 dogs to one bitch is right in this case? No.
I think if you are going to breed pick one of the other. Choosing this depends on the animals health, lines(if known), comparatible size to the bitch. Risk factors on both sides. And above all common sense.

I worked with a vet for 4 years. We worked very closely with several humane societies in our county. We are a very poor county in the state and of Virginia. Hunting is a HUGE event, and the amount of hunting dogs that run add to the number of homeless dogs and puppies. We have one of the larger homeless dog/cat rate and a very high euthanasia rate within the county animal shelter. Unfortunate as it is, it is necessary. I'm sure I raised eye brows with that one however, it is necessary to attempt to gain control over the unwanted population for sake of disease, defects and general health and wellness for both human and animal. Is it sad, yes, but we have only ourselves to blame.

I believe a few of you may of jumped on this poster a little off handedly. However I agree with your points. If an animal is homeless I either find them or I swear the local critters have a secret message line that directs them to our house. Every animal is spayed/neutered, vaccinated and either stays with us or finds an appropriate home. I also still work with the humane societies.

However my husband wanted an Australian Cattle Dog about a year ago. I looked and looked but no one in this area has them. So I went by the vets office where I used to work and they had a beautiful little Catahoula(probally has something else in there but mostly Cat.) girl in the back. Well I snatched her up. She has been a very good, very valuable working dog to us. Therefore we bred her to an Australian Cattle Dog. Hopefully we will have puppies soon.

I disagree with the person who said just because a dog is a good dog does not mean you should breed them. Yes and no. There are many many good dogs in shelters out there, but if you had a dog that went above and beyond dogs you've had before then I have nothing wrong with that in breeding. True it won't be the same but for sentimental value and for a stronger line there is nothing wrong with that.

Now... I have a major major problem with this idea of well this friend wants to breed to my bitch, and so does this one. Yes dogs naturally mate with multiple partner dogs when not controlled by human overseeing(and sometimes even with that it does) But why, why would you do that on purpose? You're taking 2 dogs, 2 diff. sizes and expecting a first time(?) bitch to succesfully whelp them? You don't always know what is in the line of your dogs, regarding size, definition, any kind of health issues. You would be doing the wrong thing here with 2 dogs. Pick one and stick to it, if this is your path of choosing. I would test the bitch, do blood work, a vaginal smear(see how the cells look, and to check her heat cycle) And update all vaccinations that need updating, worming(including hear work) about 1 month prior to mating. I know you mentioned age in the dogs, saying they were older and your concerns for carrying on with your dogs. I would get a vets approval, make sure both dogs meet the mark as far as health. Read up on this subject more, speak with your vet, know the process before you start. Education is the first step.

Over all this is your choice, do I advise it? No. Not at this time, especially when you mentioned the 2 dogs running with your bitch. You also endanger the dogs well being as well. Think 5 steps down the road okay? Do your homework, and have some real thoughtful moments over this. If you have any questions I'll happily answer them. But I think this is the wrong choice. Give another dog a chance if you can.

Forgive my fingers, hear work = heart worm