how many out there do it w/o supplemental income?

brural,

We are moving from attleboro, to Berkley, which is a very rural town (for SE Mass. ) It is a really nice area. my only concern is that most of SE MA is in a big development phase of putting in cul-de-sacs with McMansions on them. There have been a lot of those going up all around.. I see some up in Berkley too. I'm hoping that the towns strict minimum lot size of 1 1/2 acres helps curb that a bit.

Peace,

Jason

Simple asnswer, No one! Every "farmer" I know of has wife that's a school teacher or other gov't job. Beside that part they also are filing for every bit of gov't assistance they can get. The bigger their farm the more outside support they have.

__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self confidence"
Robert Frost

I think what we're basically getting down to here is that on a small scale even the most experienced, resolute, modern, farmer... with a background in sales, marketing, finance, and soil sciences, would still be hard pressed to "make a living" from his (or her!) farm. Especially if "make a living" is defined as American Middle Class, where there is an expectation of a few basics... health insurance, some savings, and an income which doesn't qualify you for food stamps. Especially if you're entering into farming with relatively little by way of infrastructure or the cash to pay for it outright.

On the other hand, I do know people who are willing to live quite tight to the bone, exchanging purchasing power for the freedom to do their own thing. Usually that "thing" is a little more diversified than simply producing an agricultural product (or two) and involves multiple income streams and value added farm products.. but still, I personally would describe them as "farmers."

Bottom line? Farming is still a choice for most of us, and in addition to choosing to farm we can also choose how we define success on our farms. If you change the question from "Can you make a living?" to "Can you be successful?" I think you'd come up with answers with an entirely different tone.

I don't think any career other than farming would suit my DH as well. He is just that type of person that needs to be doing something, planning something, making something or selling something 24-7. Well, he does take Sundays off :haha: He is also dyslexic and has someone else (me) do all the bookwork and correspondance.

In this area -- with lots of small, intense diversified farms -- farm program participation is pretty low. We DID participate in the milk income loss program for about a year until we sold the cows. I personally think the MILC payments prolonged the agony but I digress. And the government program had a LOT of strings attached! We're glad to be out of the government programs again.

On the other hand -- nobody seems too excited about organic/all antrual

DH's cousins who are Old Order Mennonite have a greenhouse and sell to the produce auction as well as a dairy herd. Talk about busy! And diversified! Another neighbor has hogs, orchard and bees as well as farming. Another lady who was widowed and had always raised chickens became a custom processor.

I think it takes awhile to find and develop a niche.

__________________
"In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity."

Isn't it amazing how strongly people feel on both sides of the insurance issue? Personally, I agree with Non Sum's answers and envy his courage and confidence in his SELF; however, I am still only a homesteading dreamer... Until I have gained actual experience I will keep my reply to simply this. Way to go Non Sum!!

I absolutely love this website and forum and thank each and everyone of you for the abundance of wonderful information I gain from it!

Greetings from Nova Scotia, I just finished reading all folks had to say about living without a job and why they need one. Things in canada are a bit better when it comes to health care because our main doctor bills are paid through our sales tax. In Nova Scotia there is a 15% sales tax on all goods and services except food. this pays for most of our health care. Even without needing health insurance it does take some money to live. We bought our place 20 years ago this this coming August. We worked ten years to pay for it while developing a organic farm also. once the place was paid for it was our intention to earn money living only from the farm .We sold goats milk; until the government made it illegal to sell raw milk. We sold meat, eggs and vegatables. We had two children when we bought the place ;still at home. They were grown by the time we tried only having income from the farm. But we were given a grandchild to raise. For seven years we lived off the farm and worked long hours for little financial reward. We lived very frugal and bought very little. We made about everything we needed. This farm is only ten acres but very fertile and well managed. We had 3,000. profit each year. We paid our taxes, light bill and fire insurance and raised our grandson. Then we started having weather problems that affected our gardens and produce sales. People also wanted produce dirt cheap. We never counted our labour so we worked for free I guess and for our food. My husband decided seven years was enough and started working for other people trimming hedges and maintaing flower beds. We continued to raise garlic for a cash crop but stopped selling vegetables. His work is seasonal from April to October so we save to have enough money to pay the light bill and taxes. We no longer have fire insurance because after 9/11 our insurance company dropped us because we refused to pay a rate that had trippled.We have 5,000. a year income but it is adequate. Our philosophy is it isn't how much we earn that matters but what we don't spend. We recycle, trade, barter, make things ourself and use electric miminally, heat with wood that we cut ourselves, and grow 99% of our food. If we didn;t have a fifthteen year old at home we probably wouldn't have electricity.It is hard with chidren to live so different from others but he co-operates. Once the boy grows up we will be living on less . If we need a dentist or funeral expense those things aren't covered by the medical program . So we have to have a fund saved to cover the unexpected. I also save to contribute to the boys education. He works mowing lawns and doing yard work in the summer at this age to get things he wants. My husband and I buy hardly anything for ourselves/ When he works he asks to be paid in cash and doesn't have a vehicle or bank account. He drives a 30 year old Honda bike he rebuilt. I and the boy ride bycycles. Farm and woods work is done with a horse.We raise feed for the horse, goats and chickens. I am home most of the time and find it takes most of my time saving, canning, preserving, and cooking food from scratch. We love our life and choose to live this way. It is about as cheap as we can live and have a good life. We also have time to help others, go to church and visit the sick. Our life isn't for everyone but it suits us . Have a nice day. Linda

If the 'health care thing' is holding you back, it probably will continue to hold you back if you are leaning on that for your security.
With no spouse job, no social security, no pension, no consultant fees or other means of self employment....then it depends on how you intend to 'invest' in yourself and what you intend to produce from your farmstead. It takes a plan for which will be different for different ventures and activities.
How are you going to go from where you are now to the 'job on the farm'? What is the intent of what you'll do, produce, sell and find a market for your farm income? How much of a 'living standard' do you expect from what you now are taking in and spending? What can you live with, and what can you live without?
I think you need to answer all these questions and more to assess your expectations and if you accept the risk, they you'll decide what's right for you.

a family of 2 humans can have a lifestyle of spending a little or a lot to maintain what is acceptable for them. One may determine they need more comforts and amendments to the life of a lot of 'extras', and the other may do with less. It's going to be a compromise and usually a huge sacrifice from what you might be used to with a steady job 'off the farm'. Insurance is 'security', but you have to pay the premium. The joy to farmstead has intangibles that offer value if you see that as being 'rich' in things that seem to be taken for granted or less appreciated if you didn't 'do it'. The way I've accepted a lot of things is that if you don't take any risk, you risk even more.

__________________
The human spirit needs places where nature has not been rearranged by the hand of man.

We are trying to get back to the point of us both being able to stay home . We are lucky as we have a military pension which covers the basics. Now for some of the none basics we needed to get or do

New concrete in the barn
finish the second floor of the house
new truck
hay equiptment
ok maybe we dont need 6 horses


We raise some heifers,hogs,goats {milk and meat} chickens and raise a huge garden.

We are going to give the meat goat and lamb market a little longer to see what happens. We are expanding the garden this year to do a roadside stand , and maybe a farmers market. We sell eggs off the farm,springing heifers, and finished hogs.

I will be getting a settlement from the x in a lump sum which will help{he hasnt paid support in over a year} We need insurance with the kids. My son has had 2 surgeries in the last year.Neither could have been avoided, an appendix and then a tumor. The appendix was an emergency and the tumor scarred us to death as the thought it was cancer. 2 cat scans blood work , 2 Dr , pathology, removal, ect , I would have hated to see the bill. It would have been well worth it as it was not cancer {Thank God}

Poorme,

Farming is the only job I've ever had, and I've been doing it for 52 years now. After I got out of the service, I started farming with my Dad for whatever he could afford to pay me (which wasn't muc). Did that for 3 years and then started farming on thirds for five years, then bought the farm from him (160 acres) at the going rate ($165/acre) in 1961. In the 1950s and 1960s, I did some custom work off the farm (side-dressing nitrogen and baling hay), but that's it.

I'm still farming about 560 acres, 480 I own and another 80 I rent. Raise corn, soybeans, alfalfa/hay and oats. Most of the feed goes to livestock -- I milk 48 cows (reg. Holstein), farrow 25 sows and run 200 beef cows and feed out the beef calves and the Holstein steers. Farming has paid for the first farm plus two more, raised 4 kids and always kept the wolf away from the door.

In my neck of the woods, most farmers are not large corporate farms -- most all family farms that range in size from 80 acres to a couple thousand. The majority of farmers I know don't work off the farm, but more and more either work off the farm themselves or have a spouse that does so, for both the extra income and the benefits (insurance). I don't see why anyone needs to apologize for having an off-farm job. If someone is a real go-getter and can run a place while holding down a job in town, that seems like a way to get ahead.

I know a half-dozen young couples who have started farming around me, and most of them do have one or two off-farm jobs. The biggest hurdles to getting started are: 1) The cost of land (around here good farm land has gone over $3000/acre and cash rents are topping out at $175/acre); 2) The cost of equipment; and 3) the cost of facilities for livestock. About the only way to get started is to have an off-farm job or work for a guy who is established, save up a bit to buy some second-hand equipment, start renting a place and then raising livestock in what facilities you can have or afford.

You'll never make it if you think you have to have all new equipment and new buildings -- just too expensive and you'll be hustling your *ss off just to pay the interest on your debt. You can buy a couple older tractors (My newest tractor is 23 years old), and get some smaller equipment at auction sales. You might have to hire some custom work done (chopping sileage, combining) but you can get by.

I think people who have posted here have some good ideas, and I think there is some merit to diversifying and trying to find niche markets, particularly direct sale. BUT, there isn't a one-size-fits-all plan. Some areas don't have the population density and income to make it viable to make a living selling at farmer's markets. As for organic livestock and produce, you have to research these markets before jumping in. I know a couple guys who sell all their market hogs to a firm that purchases organic, "free-range" (non-confinement) pork for restaurants and retail and get a good price. I also know guys who raise food-grade soybeans and organic grain, and they don't make much at it. Many farmers who started raising organic grain have gone back to traditional methods, as the buyers dictate all the terms. If your area and demographics can support a strong demand for organic and/or "farm-fresh" produce and meats at a price that generates a reasonable return, sounds like a good place to start.

Finally, I think there is a danger to having too many irons in the fire. Diversifying your sources of income is a good idea, but not at the expense of doing things you either: (1) don't have the land or facilities to do; (2) don't have the expertise to do; or (3) just aren't very good at. I've seen a lot of guys try to spread themselves too thin -- particularly with raising livestock -- and that's foolish to me. If you don't care for livestock and feed animals properly, you aren't going to increase your bottom line. I have beef, hogs and the milk cows, but over the years, the milk check has paid most of the bills. I also sell registered Holsteins to other breeders, so that has supplemented the income as well.

I think there's some truth to other posts about lifestyle choices as well. I know farmers who have gone broke because they can't just stay on the farm working (got to run to truck pulls or sit in a bar) and those who spend every dime on toys. We raise almost all of our own food and live simply. I have only owned two new cars in my life, and my current pickup is 13 years old. I don't own any motorcycles, 4-wheelers, snomobiles, or any other toys. I haven't been on a vacation since 1970. I doubt if we eat more than one meal a month in a restaurant, and we never went to a restaurant when we had kids. Most of the tools and equipment I have were bought second-hand. I trade work or meat for work with other farmers and mechanics. About the only frivolous expense I have is a subscription to a daily newspaper.

On the health insurance thing, I know it's awful expensive, but I know guys who've lost farms because they had $100,000+ medical bills and were uninsured. I read recently that if you don't have health insurance, you are paying fee-for-service. With health insurance, it's like prepaying for medical bills. I was paying $7000/year for health insurance before I reached age where I could get Medicare, but we always had health insurance.

I reckon a guy can make a living many different ways. I chose farming because I never wanted to do anything else and I've found a way to make a living at it. To a youngster just starting out, I think it's gotten tough to make a living at farming, but there are still those starting out and doing it. IF it takes working off the farm for awhile, what's wrong with that. Last year, one of my boys was home helping me hay and he told me: "The worst day on the farm is better than the best day in town." You have to pencil it out first, but you'll never know if you can do it until you give it a shot.

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"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity." Gen. George S. Patton Jr.

This has been one of the most interesting threads yet! Many have some good ideas (along with either unrealistic, or unpleasant ideas.)

I think one has to be extremely realistic about what one wants to do. Then set about making it happen. This could take a lifetime. The other alternative is to learn to accept the realities of one's current situation and make the best of it.

There is a very useful book by Joe Dominguez, et al, Your Money or Your Life. This will put you on the path to financial independence. Yes, it is possible, but it takes determination and a constant eye on the goal. The money-tree mentioned above is a good idea. Maybe the first investment only brings in a few dollars, but those dollars re-iinvested will grow more dollars. If you feel inadequate with your investing wisdom, there are Treasury Bills. They may not pay as much, but they are the most secure investment in the world. If they go, you'd better find a cave somewhere. Another way is to use various mutual funds. Just keep adding to them. Eventually, instead of automatically reinvesting, you can draw an income from them. Plan on paying off any mortgage as soon as you can. Look to the pennies, and the dollars will take care of themselves. Saving 2 cents is a good thing. Spending money on Mc D's or whatever, takes away from your goal. How serious are you? (rhetorical)

A very useful set of books are by Gene Logsdon. Many of his books are available used on Amazon or Half.com. The idea is a small (manageable by one or two persons) farm with a great deal of diversity on it. Enough is sold to pay for the rest. I won't go into the details, leaving that to his much better writings. However, he makes clear that some kind of outside income is necessary. He calls himself a writer of minor books. I personally think the "minor" is in the eye of the beholder. I like that he uses very elegant means of managing his farm and that he is very sensible about what equipment he needs.

There are any number of jobs that can bring in a stream of income whille living on a farm. I agree with an earlier poster that those streams can be from any direction. There's no rules in this--just what works for you. The point is that you are working toward your goal of financial independence.

Another way to get there is in steps. I've outlined it in other posts, but it basically is by buying a piece of real estate, gussy it up, sell and buy higher. Continue this until you own the piece you want to keep. A good real estate agent would be very helpful here in finding the properties, as well as advising what would be the most advantageous improvements for resale. Outline to the agent from the start what your goal is. You may have to shop for this agent.

Another help would be the numerous books about living simply and saving money. Amy Decyzn (spelling here is a guess) used various methods of saving pennies while her husband finished a military career, and had enough to buy their property when he got out. Many of her books have the word "Tightwad" in the title. The time she spent on this amounted to more than a paying job. I don't think she paid full price for anything, anywhere.

I agree that having insurance for auto and medical is a must, and term life insurance on the wage earner a desirability. Forget whole life. For me, not having the med and auto is a moral outrage where there are dependents.

I hope this gives some food for thought. Your goal is realistic, just don't put a time limit on it.

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Best wishes,

Sandi

"Anger is an acid that does more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to the object on which it is poured." Corrie TenBoom

We want to move rural in 2-3 years. Because i'm at home full time now, i'm working on some business ideas i have. Hubby works full time. When we move, one of us will have some type of job or our business will have grown alot.

We will NOT move and not have health, auto, house ins. I'm not willing to lose
my entire dream and/or a part of my family because we can't afford to rebuild a house or pay for medical services that could make one of us well. It wouldn't be much of a dream then.

Already one of my kids had surgery on a thumb (writing hand). If we had no ins. it would not have been possible and it would have been like that permanently. I would have felt selfish if i couldn't have had that taken care of because of choices/dreams that i followed. I'm not saying don't follow a dream, but think of what's best for your loved ones also before yourself.


I would say slash your bills and live on the bare minimum where you are to see if you could do it there. Put the extra in the bank towards a property and see how it feels to live with less.

We are working on that here. Then we will be able to figure out how much $$ we need to live the way that we like. I will not move especially with kids to a situation with no medical ins or other. Accidents happen every day when you least expect them. Then there wouldn't be that worry always at the back of my mind. Sometimes it's hard to do the right thing.

Our farm operation has supported 3 families for 30 years with no supplemental income. In the 70's and 80's it wasn't hard to do but with each passing year it has become harder. We have to support the farmer's 80 yo mother and one employee. We grow corn, wheat, alfalfa, sorghum and this year we will have 90 acres of sunflowers. We also custom feed about 600 hd. natural beef for 3 clients and sell about 25-30 hd. of natural beef in quarters and halves per year. We are the second generation on this farm and we are involving our employee, who has become like a son to us, to the extent that we will give him some land and hopefully he will be able to continue on with the operation...supported by us. Our kids have good jobs off the farm and are not interested in farming.

We do have health insurance but it has a high deductable and only 397 a month for the 2 of us. We rarely go to the doctor and I am trained in naturopathy and am an herbalist.

I have to laugh at the comments that there are NO farms ANYWHERE that supply ALL the income of the family. I know of quite a few in our area. It is hard but not impossible. Marilyn, the farmer's wife...............

Poorme,
I'd like to see your friend's books and tax returns. If it was that easy small dairy farms wouldn't be disappearing as quick as they are. The ones I know didn't quit because they're afraid of hard work.
I did make my money completely on my property but with a conventional business located on my property. The reason I closed it down while it was still busy and profitable was insurance,regulations, and not enough profit to offset health insurance/benefits cost.
The responses you've gotten here have been very honest. I know of many making a living from their land, BUT there is always their wife working as a teacher for the benefits and retirement or large gov't subsidies to help them. The only others are the ones where it's a large extended family farm and it has been paid for since the 1800's.

__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self confidence"
Robert Frost

When we started Homesteading we had $300 a month from our rental property in Woodside, CA.

Within one year we were making more money from milking one cow - and selling the jars of milk in town - than we got from the rent income. The money we got from the cow was more than enough.

We paid cash for our 160 ac quarter Section - $3,000 1972. Four years ago we paid $22,000 USD for an equivalent Quarter Section in the same area.


First Year Barley Crop This Year After Breaking 55 Acres


Built our own log house - felled the trees etc., spent $500 1972.


South View Of Cabin We Built Of Poplar Logs in 1972 - This Image is of Cabin Today 2004 Summer

Grew a big garden.

The money we got from the Woodside , CA rental property was all "extra" - didn't need it.

We lived in Canada - BC- and health insurnace is close to free if you don't make too much money - even now as then. If you pay for your insurance like we do, you pay $96 CDN [NOW - 2005] (about $80 USD) for two for one month. Even if you have a million dollars, if you MAKE less than $24,000 between the two - you pay nothing for health care insurance - for eveything - excellent care - as good as good-old-USA - I know - I lived in CA for 28 years.

You can do it.

Best idea is pay off everything, build your own house, have a temporary source of money and don't spend too much (that can be tricky).

Good Luck,

Alex

__________________
Thou art That

poorme,

Probably your best bet, and the message that everyone is trying to convey, is don't hold yourself back. Homesteading is self-employment, and you have to treat it that way. We were pretty uncertain when we decided to quit our jobs, and run our business. If you are afraid you are going to run into money problems, well, you're right. You will run into money problems, shortages, and more work than hours in the day. If you're willing to work long and hard with a smile on your face, then you're ready. Stock up on groceries, pay the rent and health insurance up for the next six months, and then jump right in! All you have to lose is your day job.

There are two families living solely off this farm now, my parents (early 60s) and my wife and I with 2 girls in diapers. HOWEVER that means Dad and I milking 85 cows, working 900 acres of corn, hay, soybeans, wheat and barley, 250 acres of woodlot, and doing custom round baling, spraying, planting and some tillage. There are ways of making it on 100 acres if you are willing to put the work into marketing and labour-intensive crops, but the days of making a living on 100 acres of crops and cattle are gone. No reason to expect to make a full-time living from a part-time job.

We have 2 families living off our farm. My Mom, Dad , Granny and My wife and I and our 2 boys(2.5years & 9months). We milk 50 cows that are rotationaly grazed. We sell breeding stock and replacement heifers. We have a small herd of meat goats that we graze(may be selling them off). We only have 200 acres and it is all in pasture and hay. My wife and I make a little syrup to sell. We sell some beef, chickens, and eggs for extra cash. The wife makes and sells homemade soap. None of us work off the farm. No, we don't have much money and sometimes it gets kinda tight, but it sure beats punching a time clock. You learn not to spend money you don't have and to do with less. Most people are not willing to make the lifestyle changes you need to make to "live off the land".

"Most people are not willing to make the lifestyle changes you need to make to "live off the land".
.................................................. ...................

Truer words were never spoken.

For myself, a simple lifestyle is very fine as long as there is a library available, and a town I can drive to once and a while. This is NOT true for my DH and kids. DH wants a certain amount of "toys", and both of the kids seem to be headed for a city life. My oldest likes the critters, but that is her only interest in the outside life. My youngest only goes outside when he is told to.

To help the kids along to the city life-since that is where they will likely end up ANYWAYS- they are enrolled in things like scouting and other activities. I CANNOT teach them how to organize people or be a part of group activities, but the scouts can.

Scouting can be expensive. True, it doesn't HAVE to be, but DH is now gleefully arranging for special paints, stickers, and so forth for the upcoming pinewood derby. The car CAN be made for $5, but so far DH has $50 invested in it. This does not include the borrowed band saw, or the spray-painter that he bought in a previous year.

It is a wonderfull Father and son activity that fits BOTH of their interests, and the resulting cars are AMAZING works of art, and my son DOES appear to be heading for a career as an industrial artist, and I am NOT! going to complain!

I just accepted a LONG time ago that my family has different needs and a different lifestyle than mine. DH is willing to work long, hard hours to support this lifestyle.

It also means that DH will not retire early and we will never be a self-supporting homestead family. Such is life. This is our home and we all love it, but only Mom loves having a really big "back yard". To the rest of the family it only IS a back yard, and the critters are only pets.

It just means that I come here when I feel the need to talk about agricultural subjects. Which, in the winter, is LOTS! :haha: