how many out there do it w/o supplemental income?

The answer you seek is really not attainable. You can run cottage industry and service companies from home and still call it "homestead based" while it is also part of the "outside sources" only on a smaller scale.

Take for example how people working "regular jobs" usually work for a paycheck, insurance bennies and a 401k plan. They comfortably slave away and disperse their entire 40 hour paycheck until the threat of layoff looms then most try to get additional employment or the eccentric few become obsessed with "modern homesteading" as a release valve of the layoff jones.

I began preparing for my eventual out placement from my normal non-thinking job actually when my exwife started jonesing about Y2k in 1998 by evaluating some of the Countryside magazine ideas after she started her subscription and by using my investments to reduce mortgage and overheads.

When my layoff occured, she took a non-thinking job to retain the feel of security of a regular paycheck while I developed things that I could do at home to cover expenses that had been covered by my steady employment.

Gardens , farmers market , small engine repair , bait sales , engineering freelancing and flea markets soon grew into a means of covering expenses and putting food on the table. A couple used car sales a year financed our family health insurance costs and day trading became my way of building my investment savings and active income that I created by cashing out what had been my 401k plan since it was no longer 'planning for some day", but rather "here and now with 27 years until retirement age" .

"Homesteading" in no way replaces a "normal job". It simply provides you with work while placing the additional burden of management of your work on your shoulders instead of others. Where in a "normal job" your just the donkey chasing the carrot for others, as an independent self relient homestead manager, you must also devise how to put the carrot in front of you and how to grow the carrot . If you cant manage a business, you cant have a self relient homestead life. You have to be capable of both donkey endurance and creative management. The prize achieved is having only yourself to blame if you fail rather than someone else laying you off as a result of their failure.

Its not so much being free of society employment, but selecting the society employment that you can master and manage so that you can exist within your desired fringe of society. Each person has a different level of comfort that they choose to pursue.

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"I didn't have time to slay the dragon. It's on my To Do list!"

I agree with the pro-insurance posters... too many friends of mine have flown without nets assuming that someone else would be the one to get hurt, or sick, only to discover they were the statistic. And what do you do then? Most of them threw themselves on the mercy of their communities, in the form of fundraisers, complete with donations from local businesses. Real "community involvement." Quite Vermont. Almost romantic. But it rather begs the point of their "independant" lifestyle if you have to ask your neighbors to bail you out. There was a time when I looked back over a year and realized we'd shelled some $600 out on these various events. While I paid my health insurance, homeowners, auto, etc, so nobody would have to bail us out.

I don't mean to sound hostile to their problems, but these same people owned thousands of dollars (literally) in sports equipment, went on exotic vacations to participate in their sports, and held down low paying jobs because they gave them the flexibility to participate in their sports.

I think of homesteading the same way... it is a choice. One chooses to invest in a tractor, chainsaw, chicken coop, and chooses not to invest or work for, insurance.

But I personally think you can't claim an "independant" lifestyle if you aren't prepared to insure your independance.

One cannot underestimate the value of health insurance. Herself and I don't have it but we only visit the doctor for a yearly checkup. As harsh as it may sound we have both decided that if we have a serious illness, we had rather check out than sell everything we've spent a lifetime gathering for our children.

Everyone dies anyway, so why fight it. We've both dealt with broken bones and serious infections without "doctoring". We've had a good life and if tomorrow never comes; it's been a wild ride.

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“It is tedious to live, it is tedious to die, it is tedious to c**p in deep snow”
Old Norwegian observation

insurance is a must, my younger cousin has 3 boy's she was married and living in arkansas about three years ago, and couldn't afford the car ins. that month so she tried to get a loan from her in laws, her mother in-law told her just to let it slide for a little while, she wouldn't do that and pawned enough stuff to pay it, her husband died in a head on collision 2 weeks later, if it wasn't for that ins. she would have nothing. her husband was a minister (just starting out) her s.s. is just enough to live on. her husband was also wearing his seat belt which upped her claim by 10,000 dollars it was enough to buy a trailer and put it on family land. i my self having been widowed at 23, and now re-married at 41 know the importance of ins. we are going through finacial crisis now and have lost our new truck, satelite, and numerous thing to pawn shops all to pay my husbands life ins. i will not do with out it, we have two small children that i will be left to care for, been there done that once, never again. wish i had medical ins. was diagnose with endometreosis in june and no way to treat it with out ins.

Farming is a business. You have a product which you're trying to sell, overhead and expenses, tax, paperwork etc. etc. Supporting even a family of 3 by traditional farming alone is expecting a great deal. It may work if you were to live extremely simply, work extremely hard, planned carefully and had funds to begin with. Think no electricity, no vehicles, no health insurance, no debt, etc. perhaps almost Amish. Long ago, families were larger... perhaps not because folks liked large families (or a lack of birth control), but because more kids meant more helping hands to get the work done.

There are aspects of todays society which you cannot escape from easily. Things like health insurance, automobiles, tax, electricity/utilities, housing, food which you cannot produce, and perhaps others. The reality of it all means that you'll need an income, and working hard 16hr days to barely get by is something most of us are not willing to do.

cheers,

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Cheers from Southern Ontario CANADA!

Some ‘buy-into’ the fear scenarios, the myth that safety is obtainable if only: I buy enough insurance, obey the law, plan for everything possible, pray to the right gods. It can keep you hopping and hoping like a timid rabbit. Why did some slaves never run away? Fear of reprisals. Why did some slaves run away? Fear of continuing to be a slave to fear of reprisals. Which category of slave would buy insurance; ask yourself.

Yes, Shygal, sometimes uninsured grandparents suffered and died early. Now, with insurance, sometimes their grandchildren suffer and die early. So much has changed! Not! You’re right ‘good food and exercise’ aren’t a guarantee, nor is insurance, there are none. So, run for your freedom good slave, even if you might get caught and hanged in the attempt. I ran, and didn’t get caught. 13 unemployed years later I am both setup and well off, besides.

You ask, Shygal, “Where do you get the money to save?”

Presumably, you have a current income. Good. Now, stop spending it wastefully (e.g. insurance). Ben Franklin was wrong. “A penny saved is NOT a penny earned.” It is several pennies earned. That ‘penny saved’ doesn’t require ¾ of a penny to earn it, it earns pennies of its own for as long as you keep it. The secret of getting rich is simple. Don’t spend anything, or next to anything. Don’t pay any essential bills unless you absolutely have to, and then pay late. Ruin your credit. Rip the banks off, and never ever use credit again. Always save up and pay cash, if you have to pay at all. Don’t pay retail. E.g. need a car? Go to an auction, or a junkyard. Homesteading, and preparing for it, is not for sheep. It requires the frontier spirit of rugged individualism.

True, house insurance is “mandatory for a mortgage app.” Another reason not to get insurance or a mortgage. A ‘mortgage’ is an opportunity to pay more for a home then its actual price, it is the thickest of all wage slave chains.

True, the insurance companies have the government threatening you if you don’t buy their automotive ins products. Many states allow ‘self-insurance,’ IF you troubled to save your money instead of buying things with it. Until you have enough $, break the law instead. Oouu scary! Escaping slave may get a whipping if caught. Want to get rich/free, or do you want to be fearful?

You said: “You have some good thoughts here, but they are not realistic at all.”

If they are ”not realistic” then why am I personally living out these “thoughts”? I hated to work, and now I’m too rich to bother. If there is a will, believe me there are many ways for the rule breakers to make it happen. That’s one reason I enjoy reading this site (I rarely post), so many here have such great ideas on how to save on, or avoid, expenses that the “normal person” considers “must” be expended. I’ve learned a lot. I hope all those who dream the homesteader dream learn to live beyond fear and join us. Peace.

well, let me give you an example. I know a guy who borrowed $100,000 from his parents at 6%/year. He bought a run down dairy farm on 30 acres. 8 years later he's worth about $500,000 and spends about $40,000/year on personal expenses.

making a living farming is not impossible. difficult, but not impossible.

If I can afford to lose it, I don't insure it.

"Which category of slave would buy insurance; ask yourself."

True slavery would be moving back into society so that I can continue to walk.

I prefer to make my OWN decisions, thank you very much, even if others snicker. I will continue to live my way BECAUSE I had insurance.

We farm full-time with neither of us having an off-farm job right now. That could change ... we sold our dairy cattle last year since they were losing money ... but this year's wheat crop was kind of a bust, leaving a short-fall. We will have to see how the other crops turn out.

We only own (well, we and the bank) 40 acres but DH farms over 200 additional for 3 other people. He leases one farm and farms the other two on shares.

We are slowly buying out his parents. We own the largest tractor, all the other equipment (planter, drill, disks, hay rakes, hay mower, baler, skid loader and all the wagons) but bought them very used a few items at a time. FIL still owns the three smaller tractors. We no longer own a combine. We hire harvesting and trucking done.

Before we sold the cattle we were able to get pretty good insurance through the dairy co-op and have kept it. DD was in an accident earlier this year and needed surgery, so we were glad we had some insurance.

You have to be willing to work hard and put some plans on hold ... such as, our farm truck is going to be 15 years old soon and our family car is 11 years old. We have a 1,300 square-foot house because the payments were more do-able. Before the kids were born I worked in town and we made extra house payments as often as we could.

Also, be willing to try new things. We sell corn, wheat and soybeans at commodity prices, but also, small square bales of hay and straw; freezer beef; live cattle; and are starting out trying to sell chickens like DH sells the freezer beef. And also trying to sell eggs. (Xmas $$$ for the kids!) Next year DH is going to try and raise food-grade wheat on contract. Should be itneresting.

DH has been working on the farm with his dad since he was a little boy, and has been buying his folks out a little bit at a time. I don't think it would be possible, or even wise, to try and buy it all at once.

Since the alternative/all-natural/organic foods niche seems to be growing, we are following that and trying to figure out what works for us in that realm.

Some of our Old Order Mennonite and Amish neighbors have gone into produce and flowers big time ... changing from hogs/dairy/ poultry to produce. This can be good for small acreage/lots of kids situation. :

My hat is off to DH for managing the farm as well as he has to support our family of five and partially support his retired parents, too. He has to really be jack-of-all-trades, master of none, and a little bit of a gambler and risk-taker.

Good luck whatever you decide!
ann

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"In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity."

we wish to move out of our suburb and go rural, but health insurance is one thing that we won't do without. We plan to have a business of some sort or have my hubby work - were still working on our plan.

I wouldn't take any risks with my kids - one already had thumb surgery I would have felt horrible and useless if i had made a concious decision not to get insurance and had to tell him that his thumb had to stay that way forever (it was bent in one position because of cartilidge) and not have him write correctly/easily. I also have had a surgery a few years ago - i had a lump in my breast (not cancer - lucky) but at 33 who would have thought that would happen and what if it had been cancer - no insurance - we would have lost everything and had difficulty in getting treatment and think of the stress of having a loved one very sick and nothing you can do. A friends dad said never think of going without - at 58 he had to have an emergency double bypass - wasn't expected - he had insurance though so the $$ wasn't a stress. Stress is not a healthy thing for anyone.

Insurance is why we haven't gone rural yet. We are homesteading here in the suburbs (not quite like you all), but I am simplyfying our lives, buying less and doing/making everything I can for our needs, growing food (will double next year). Once we figure out the insurance, financial side/business/job for hubby then we will plan for the move.

brural

Having auto insurance is not being fearful. It is being a responsible adult. If heaven forbid you get in a wreck on one of your forays into town and kill/maim another person/family, I sure hope you have enough money saved to pay all the medical/funeral/suffering/loss of wages that they are going to nail you with.

You might just end up loosing everything you thought was yours to keep, and end up in jail.

Question -- how do you license/register your vehicle without insurance. It is illegal in our state. Or do you just lie and/or print up a card yourself?

Tracy

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Soldier Mountain Alpines
Southcentral Idaho
http://soldiermountainalpines.com

I forgot to add ... DH thinks if health care was less of an issue, people would flock back into farming.

Of the seven families at our church (out of about 500 people -- maybe 200 families) that farm full-time .... two couples are retired so they have Medicare ... and only one other family has both parents (us and another couple) both at home on the farm full-time. Everyone else has a spouse working in town either for extra income or insurance.

We could not get an operating loan without farm liability insurance. Our beef cows at one of the other farms got out on the road and this lady dodged several but T-boned a black Angus heifer. All survived ... but insurance had to pony up for her car getting totalled.

One of the big differences years ago was, people were reluctant to take each other to court. Many more people were active in church and the Bible teaches we should avoid taking brother or sister believers to court. Not to mention many court situations are public record and people used to be more concerned about privacy.

Just some more thoughts. As you can see this is right where we live.
ann

PS -- one more thought and then I'll hush up -- Diversify, diversify, diversify. And keep livestock. The farms in the worst shape, in my opinion, are ones that try to grow only cash grain. For young folks starting out, hogs used to be considered "mortgage lifters' since they grow out quick. We have debated raising hogs but don't have the facilities for them. Our fences are NOT hog-tight and we'd probably be feeding the neighborhood with all our strays :haha:

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"In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity."

As cloverfarm put it Diversify, diversify, diversify! I think that is a key that i have gathered from my own experiences and from everything i have read from others experiences. Having income from several sources seems to be key.. Many peoples goal is to work from home on their homestead, or work much less in a standard 9-5 job in order to spend more time on the homestead building a more self sufficient life. We are not yet living in a rural homesteading situtation.. by the end of the year we will be living in a rural town, on 1 1/2 acres.. not a lot, but it's a start. I have spent the past few years working to create supplemental income that can eventually take over and replace my 9-5 income. I bought some distressed multifamily homes. Fixed them up, and hired a property manager to rent them out. This income is now going to pay off the cost of fixing them up, but by the spring will be a nice supplemental income of a couple grand a month. I've also been reading a lot on growing herbs as a side business and already have a store to carry dried herbs that i have been growing( moving all the herbs to the new homestead will be a task, but will get the business up and running quicker.) I also started beekeeping, and will expand from 2 hives to approximately 11-15 next year. There will be more supplemental income. Yes there is a start up cost on that (hives, bees, frames, extractor.. jars, labels), but they make several products that i can market, and again, i already have stores willing to carry the products (it pays to be friends with shop owners..) and have several places to keep my hives (cant keep too many on my 1 1/2 acres.). In the spring on the homestead we will be starting a large veggie garden, and also planting lots of perennial fruits and veggies. We also will be getting chickens (I have someone who will buy feathers for a store and crafts..) and i can sell eggs(but i want them more because i just love chickens..) I am also considering schooling to become a realtor.. i can get health insurance that way and work as much or as little as i want. We just have to make sure we can financially be able to pay all or our bills and mortgage on the supplemental before i leave my good paying 40hr a week job. and regarding the auto insurance thing.. in our state it is mandatory.. so no way around it if you want to drive a car. and i have to drive 40 min to an hour on the highway to go to work everyday.. wouldnt want to do that without auto and health insurance..

That's just my thoughts on it.

Peace,
Jason

Jason,

we are in the same boat - we are just figuring out what "small" business we want to do. Where in MA do you live? We live north of Boston for now - working on our plan to move to a more rural state/city.

brural

We are working towards this very same dream. We recently turned some investments into a land purchase (92 acres). It's bought and paid for, although the cap gains taxes were brutal. This much land only costs us $230/year in taxes since it's all designated forest land. When we sell our 5 acre suburban "farm", we should have plent left over after paying off the small remainder of the mortgage to build a house that is off the grid and develop our land (plus a barn, fencing, well, septic, etc.....) We've been farming on a small scale, both livestock and fruit for 10 years, so we know what it takes to produce healthy, organic food. DH can't picture himself not working outside the home, but I sure can! If I can get up every day and all I have to do is care for the livestock, train and play with the dogs and work in the garden or orchard or berry patch, that would be the best. Right now, I drive sometimes 3 hours a day to get that paycheck from my job..... Knowing that there is a specific goal and reason why I have to keep doing this for awhile keeps me motivated and gets me in that car every morning.

On farming.... we've found that the specialty/niche market is best in our area. Organic *anything* is in high demand. One retailer has told us he will buy as many organic berries of any kind we can produce. Berries grow well in our area. He also said there is a huge demand for organic lamb. The price of organic hay is too high, but even our pasture-raised no-drugs lamb is in high demand. We just don't have enough land with only 5 acres to grow enough of them. Then there is organic turkeys.... a guy we met recently said he paid over $80 for a small organic, free-range turkey last year. No way is it costing us that much to raise since we buy our organic feed in bulk. He's getting one from us this year.

On health insurance, well... even though DH loves the rural life, hunts, fishes and is a wonderful farmer, he's still a mover & shaker, he likes to work and farming is relaxing for him. So health insurance would be available thru his work.

I think it can be done, as long as your expenses are as low as possible and you are self-sufficient.

Hi, I was reading through and wondering if anyone has tried the Health Savings Accounts. Here it is. It covers you for major medical at a cheaper than average price (family of 5 230.00 per month). You pay a 5100.00 deductible if something really bad happens. The good news, you can save 5100.00 a year (it keeps compounding at 4% interest)in a tax defered account and use that money toward all medical bills. Once the deductible is met per year, the plan pays 100%. It might be worth looking into, peace of mind but much cheaper than traditional insurance. Not an expert on it but there is a lot of info. out there about it. Hope this helps, it could still be too expensive.
abuckle2

Oh boy. You're right about one thing: there are many ways for the rule breakers to "make it happen." Most involve getting ahead at the expense of somebody else. The attitudes you express are, in my view, anything but "ruggedly individualistic." "Parasitic" is the term that comes to mind.

And wouldn't he be the first person to call for a "barn raising" if his barn burned down instead of hiring a contractor... because he couldn't be bothered with insurance. AND he'd feel like this was one of the good things about living in the country with such nice neighbors.

I found myself actually blushing for this individual. While "parasitic" is a good word, I think "selfish" or "self-centered" is more apt. What really burns me is here he did things that were illegal, terribly selfish, and cost the rest of us money... and now that he's got his, he's proud of himself and advises others to do the same. And if they won't rip other people off and live like parasites, then he has the nerve to think of himself as superior because he does!

It isn't nerve, it isn't cunning, it is theft. From me. From everyone on this list. Nice that you got yours... but you've got so much dung on your hands I wouldn't shake them.

Insurance is betting against yourself. The insurance company bets the majority of its policy holders won't have a problem and we say "Ya, but..." and pay them. The insurance companies are some of the wealthiest in the world. It's kind of like going to the casino. The house will win in the end.
That said, each person has to determine what insurances are a "must" for themselves. I have never made a choice that didn't have consequences. Some of my choices leave me smiling, some leave me frowning. Decide what you "need" and then pony up and pay the price. If it becomes too much of a price change it.
I have made it 56 years without paying for insurances that I considered unnecessary. That gave me quite a few dollars to use for other things, like building my home. There are always risks. Living is risky business. And it seems everyone has a different tolerance for risk. And that tolerance changes as we age. I don't believe there is a universal answer. I think you have to go with your gut and your own set of circumstances.

Nobody is suggesting, desdawg, that someone carry more insurance than they are comfortable with simply because someone else feels they should. What we are saying is that bragging about not carrying insurance when the law stipulates that you must (auto), not paying bills, and ripping off the bank, is selfish and illegal.

It is most certainly not cunning, and not clever. Although it is calculating.