Raising Purebred Dogs?

The AKC is more about beauty contests than working dog which I am a fan of. The AKC does fight for dog owners rights and does a great job of promoting the "dog sport" which they must or they would be out of buissness. Now they are a non profit organisation but there are a lot of people involved that are making a lot of money and this can be said of all "all breed registries". The AKC also does not recognise many breed's of dogs that many people visiting this board may be interested in ie. 5 breeds of hounds that originated on this side of the pond all Cur breeds all fiests and a miriad of other breeds so how can the almighty AKC be the "only" Registry with the exception of the JRTCA? Again I mention the JRTCA since you brought it up and they are as against any recognition of Jack Russells by all breed registries as any club yet you say they are the only other honerable registry isint that a big contradiction? I stated in my other post that they will ruin this breed and to support this they have already changed the standard (for better looking dogs) and changed the name of the Breed. Now is that what makes a Registry Great?

AKC and UKC are the best way to go if you are going to breed. They offer both conformation AND performance events so that dogs can be proven in both working ability AND looks, they have foundations that provide grants for health research, and they lobby for the rights of dog owners and breeders. Chickflick, I think you are thinking of KC (Kennel Club- no other letters-) in the UK- the disreputable UKC in the US is the 'Universal Kennel Club' which will register anything you send them a photo of if you promise it's purebred. (Whatever!)

JAS, the only way I see people making money ethically on purebred dogs are by seriuosly training and trialling them, or showing them. And training and trialling is going to be a LOT easier than getting major wins on a AWS, of which there are not many shown- and more demand for them as hunting dogs than as pets, I suspect.

Puppies out of field-titled (or field-tested- JH, MH, etc) parents, with health clearances- perhaps older puppies started on birds- might be a way to make some money. But I suspect you'd need to do it full time and on a very large scale to make it worthwhile.
(This is not to say don't try it! I'm trying to find a field trainer to apprentice to so I can get more experience training bird dogs- but I make MUCH more money teaching basic obedience classes than I'd ever bring in breeding my dogs unless I turned into a puppy mill, churning out litters right and left!)
Cait

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"Dogs may not be our whole lives, but they make our lives whole." Roger Caras

The breeder you are working with has 30 to 40 dogs. You are not going to have more than four or five at a time. I think you should have a mentor who is doing things the way you are. Showing dogs and testing them does not a great breeder make. As you get into the American Water Spaniel Club, you will meet more and more people who really love the breed. If, once you learn more about the breed and the people who breed them, you may find that this woman is thought highly of and in that case use her stud. Regardless, you are not running a big kennel and IMO you should be learning with someone who is more interested in the happiness of his/her dogs than in making money off them.

I think if you are interested in a high selling price you should breed for the price, whether it's hunting or show. If you are more interested in quality, then breed for sound health and temperment first, field second, show ring third (add to that obedience, tracking, or what have you). Keep in mind, you may be able to make money, not off your dogs directly, but by being a judge or trainer.

Also, if the puppies are from AKC lines, then by all means, register them. The AKC is a registration organization, not a police organization. Yes, there is corruption but there always is when humans are involved. Just because there are unethical people in the AKC doesn't mean that you have to be. If you show your dogs in Canada, then also register them with CKC. If you want to add UKC, then go for it.

Our neighbor pays at least $10,000 for her imported German shepherds. We are going to raise Australian shepherds. Will let you know if there is a profit in them. We have a farm and just like the breed.

I'm sorry, but I simply must bring this up. It's a pet peeve of mine.

Saying that the AKC judges its' dogs just on "looks" is mis-leading. Each breed has a "Standard of Perfection," which is what the ideal dog of that breed should be according to its original purpose. Saying that they judge the dog's "looks" is untrue; they judge the dog's "conformation."

For example, the dog's handler must move the dog in certain patterns to show the judge the dog's gait, or movement. A dog with bad movement is clearly not put together as well, which is another thing a judge looks at when they "go over" the dog.

Think about it: a dog that does not move cleanly probably is not put together as well, and as such, may have problems as they get older with their structure and frame. Some may go lame. Would you rather have a dog working on your farm that is well put-together and able to do its job? Or would you rather have a dog that develops severe problems from hip displaysia or other problems as it gets old, and is unable to do its job as well?

The conformation standards have their purposes. Health screening before breeding your dog is a must, to rule out things like hip displaysia, eye problems, and other genetic problems.

And while, yes, some breeders have moved away from the "working dog," it should be the perrogative of every good breeder to preserve the working ability of their breed while maintaining the standard of the breed.

Okay, just my little rant. Have a good day, everyone.

-- Hannah and the Gang (Riordan, Beast, Angel, Tagg, Cleo, North, the Ratties and Rabbits)

Also, just a quick note here.

My mother and I used to be very active in the breeding and showing of AKC Kuvasz. We no longer breed but do attend an occasional show in our area.

To make a long story short, I don't pay quite as much attention to the issues in the dog world anymore. I'm more focused on fighting the legislation that pinpoints rabbit breeders and tries to make their world a living nightmare now, and was just wondering if anyone knows of any good websites that talk about the issues with the AKC?

Also, one of my biggest peeves about some of these other registries is their willingness to accept any new mix as a breed. Examples? "Cockapoos," "Labradoodles", "Schnoodles," and such. Sure, there are those who genuinely are working for a breed -- I don't remember if it was for "Labradoodles" or "Goldendoodles," but I read an article on how they were originally bred as guide dogs for those allergic to regular dog hair -- but the problem with a lot of these is that any person who wants to try to make a buck off of poor little Fluffy can say, "Gee, if I breed Fluffy the Poodle to my neighbor's Spike the Cocker, I can say that I have these rare Cockapoos!" and they just do it, no health clearances, and then go around touting their "rare cross" and trying to sell them for high prices. It makes me sick.

Okay, now I really -am- done ranting. *sigh* It's too early in the morning.

--Hannah and the Gang

I realize that countrygoalie. Like I said, body structure ties in to a dogs ability to do what it was bred for, too. But for example, border collies have to be smart, fast, agile, obedient, ect. Sheep herding is really where you judge them. Breeding them just for the AKC standard is not good.

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The American Water Spaniel is a rare breed - considerably less than 200 registered each year. This might sound like a good opportunity for a new breeder, but the opposite is true. The breed is primarily of interest to a small group of hunters. Pet owners have no familiarity with it, there is no demand for puppies in that sector. Any hunter is likely to go to the breeder you bought your dog from - the one with the reputation in the breed, and proven hunting stock. You might find one who will take a pup for free, to raise it and try it out, but don't expect big bucks by just placing an ad in the classified section of your local paper. If you do breed, have a fallback list of people willing to take a puppy off your hands (for free) if the litter gets to be 4 months old and you still have a number to find homes for.

Wow, thanks for all the replies, I think ?

MaryDVM--Yes, it is a rare breed, I had a hard time finding a male near-by. (Actually, my female's sire is out of her line.) I asked the breeder about this and she said she would buy any puppies if the both parents were tested for hips and eyes and I could not find them homes. She has a waiting list and would be able to place most puppies. That would be my last resort. She encouraged me to join the hunting test group she belongs to and even signed the registation form as a sponsor for me.

I have already had someone inquire about puppies. Fortunately I live in a prime hunting area, not too far from Wisconsin where the breed was developed. Most people have labs but there are a lot of "town" hunters that would love a smaller dog that can get the job done. AWS are also considered a great family dog, though the "water type" coat might not be appreciated by some. I've thought of keeping and training the young that did not sell as puppies and try selling as started dogs. The AWS "train" differently than most hunting breeds, a lot softer temperment.

It seems there are a lot of "dog" folks on this forum. I am open to any other ideas, especially on marketing. I think I am going to go for it though (pending on the hip x-rays?!) Thanks.

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JAS
White, South Dakota

Marketing, eh? Well, I'm not experienced with hunting/gundog/retriever magazines, but if they have classifieds, perhaps advertise in there? Also, perhaps try Dog World or even Dog Fancy.

Also, a well put-together website can work wonders if you enter it to various search engines.

Hope these help.

Sorry to have taken this post so far of the original topic but it really strikes a nerve with me if you plan to be a responsible breeder and you know that your dog can better the breed then breed her but I would not plan on making a lot of money.only owning a few dogs especially if they are unproven.

Now as far as the AKC and "breed Standards" that is why I am so against them if you look at a field bred Bassett hound they do not look at all like what you will find registered with the AKC, Irish Setter's well the standard for hair length in the past 100 years has definetly changed as no one will take a dog from the AKC show out in the field without a good clipping, Cockers well very few have the brains to hint thanks to being bred for show"LOOKS" the AKC Russell's can already be 1" taller than those from the parent club and some AKC champs that I have seen recently are far from spaniable even by my large hand's. Now tell me how any of these items that are bred into show dogs help working dogs as there is no comparison

My mention of JRTCA was more inclined to mean that THEY are the only ones doing it RIGHT!! (sorry, sometimes I'm not real clear). The JRTCA requires puppys be sold WITH a 4/5 generation pedigree, a veterinary exam certificate and a Registration APPLICATION. What that means is....

Puppy turns ONE YEAR of Age, you take to a VET and have him checked for every conceivable fault, and general health.. THEN .. IF he passes THAT, vet fills out form.. you send all of THAT to JRTCA (with photos, I might add) and THEN MAYBE JRTCA will 'register' the dog.

All registries should be so diligent. :yeeha:

As to my opinion of UKC.. it was from information told me almost 30 years ago when (not knowing any better!) I purchased a Pit Bull Terrier pup. These dogs originated (mostly in England).. UKC was the first registry in America to accept Pit Bulls. Hmmmm.. (old memory.. wires crossed.. or given erroneous info....)

In checking their site..I am impressed. BUT.. AKC is not all bad. They too, it appears, adhere to most of the same (if not all of the same) guidelines as UKC.

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"TIMSHEL"
Spoiler ALERT: For those of you who've never read Steinbeck's "East of Eden".... timshel means "thou mayest".

You've already gotten a lot of good advice. Just my two cents worth. I uysed to raise toy poodles (I lived in Atlanta) and did very well with it. I also did grooming, training and pet sitting. I would offer the 1st haircut for free to my customers and they usually just kept coming back. I also offered 1 free training class to my customers and pet sitting when they were out of town. It let me keep track of my pups and how they were doing and generated additional income. I made in the mid 20K while doing it. Now that I am unemployeed, I am seriously considering doing it again when we get our own place again. In this area, I would place an ad on Friday in the weekend paper and never had pups by Sunday. I miss having all the poodles around.

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