"Welcome to The Patriot Act"

mightybooboo · #61 08/26/04, 10:15 AM

[QUOTE=edjewcollins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Ed: God, when I read crap like this I wish I could strangle you. I wish, but I wouldn't cause your just as entitled to your opinion as I as an american citizen. I suspect that is the difference between us is, I would die defending your right to disagree with me and you would watch me die and do nothing. Your comment on no defense for terrorism is ignorant and ignores the obvious. There is a painfully simple way to STOP terrorism. 1. Develop freedom from our slavery to oil which probably could have been done with the amount of money Iraq has/will cost us. 2. Withdraw from the middle east and any other country we are in and let them clean up their own messes. 3. Stop supporting Isreal, I don't feel guilty about the Holocaust because I had nothing to do with it. Also, if we withdraw from the middle east we don't need to support Isreal because we have no further interest there. 4. Declare for the whole world to hear that if we are attacked in any way shape or form we will lay waste to the attackers and the area they occupy. I don't care if some people in those areas had anything to do with it or not. It is there responsibility to clean up their own backyard and if they can't we will do it for them.
There, problem solved. As to our privacy and giving up our rights, do you even think our leaders give a s++t abous us.
Ed

All of the above I agree with you 100%,couldnt have said it better.We need to stop being victims of corporate greed.
BooBoo

booga · #62 08/27/04, 09:51 AM

Personally I think liberals were coddled too much when they were young. They were taught to cry to get attention when they didnt get their way. They would whine and whine for something until they got it. They have little regard for the simple premise whatever they get comes from the pool of money for their parents and other siblings. They decide what they want and then invent justifacations for it.

I mean think about it, did it ever occured to a liberal that an abortion may be a murder? Maybe there is a 1 in 100 chance they are wrong, and that they would be voting for tens of thousands of murders a year? would they reconsider ? Espically considering how they are willing to let so many go free from prisons just to make sure no innocent are jailed (or executed) ?

It tells me they must not believe they can be wrong, or they want to be able to have an abortion, and have justified the right for one.

I have seen too much of what liberalism brings in spoiled children. The older systems my not be 'fair' in the sense you get what everyone else gets, but they are fair in that you know what you will get.

Anyone who cant see that a democratic Iraq, sitting the the middleast, is an asset to peace in the world and safety to the US, is just plain stupid. They justify hating the war, and the president by saying they were tricked. Every major power in the world, and even the UN said there were WMD in IRAQ before the war !!! Your memories are so short ! I guess time has passes, you forgot about the americans jumping from the WTC, desperatly trying to avoid the heat and smoke. You forget about the ones who undoubtley got sliced by razors trying to stop the hijackers in PA. The ones who Cried out in fear when they saw the building getting closer and closer.

The world is an unfair, unsafe place. Building unatural systems around it will only ensure civilizations will fall instead of men. The laws of men do not affect natural laws. They can decrease the chance of a individual being harmed, but only by burdening the whole. Like putting all your eggs in one basket, decreases your change of breaking AN EGG carrying them one at a time, but inceases your chance of breaking all the eggs. And given enough time carring a basket of eggs , you will break them all. And breaking all the eggs is far worse than breaking an egg here and there.

chickflick · #63 08/27/04, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightybooboo

We need to stop being victims of corporate greed.
BooBoo

Okay. Agreed. NOW.. just HOW do you propose that we do that? BY VOTING for our CHOICE?? (ROFLMAO!) 'choice' pft.

But really.... ANY ideas that would actually WORK? Maybe I'm being negative, but I suppose since (as some agree) it's all in God's hands anyway... and certainly the Corporate Greedys will continue to be in charge and there really isn't jack squat we can DO...

SO.... Maybe.. just maybe, we should take a chance on learning more and acting on God's law of 'love'.

I know a lot of you don't really GET that, because it only SOUNDS simplisitic. It is the ONLY recourse we have to survive (?) the coming onslaughts of our privacy, our freedom and our very Souls.

That's it folks. God Bless You. And Good luck!

billy · #64 03/27/08, 12:10 AM

THAT, and getting involved at the grass roots level politically.

AJ Williams · #65 03/27/08, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It sounds to me as if you feel our rights are so battered that they aren't worth protecting any longer, and you are ready to trade your constitutional rights for security. Let's recall a quote in a previous post:

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security
----Benjamin Franklin

I'm certainly not the judge of what you deserve, but I do question the effectiveness of taking rights of US citizens away in the name of security. I simply don't see how spying on our own people will improve the current security situation.

It is true that you may not have anything to hide, but there are those who will use any and all information they can get their hands on to your detriment, and those you care about also. Many good people have been ruined by such no-good-doers.

I'm sorry you don't think there are enough fundamental rights left to be worth protecting and longer. I disagree, but I do respect your opinion. I, for one, am not ready to turn my back on the constitution.

You should register for HT! Stand up and be counted for what you say or are you afraid someone will see through you. Anonymously you can say just about anything. Fraid or what?

jross · #66 03/27/08, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debitaber

our country, is no longer ,for the people and by the people. IT is big business, and the president is ceo, and there for a dictator, and he does what he want , to a degree, the senators, run many things. But the senators, and all millionaires. what happened top the grocery store owner being senator, r the local farmer, those days are gone, now it is the rich and super rich, and tht is bad, because they have no idea, what our lives are like.

If you think it is bad now, stand by if Hillary or Obama is elected with a Democratic congress. One only has to remember when Bill unleashed Reno on innocent gun owners other then Waco or Ruby Ridge. It is becoming very American to forget history so it can be repeated.

jross · #67 03/27/08, 08:23 AM

One more thought . We whiners can post our opinions here without worrying about our doors getting smashed in. Maybe in 2009.

Forerunner · #68 03/27/08, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billy

THAT, and getting involved at the grass roots level politically.

Forget politics, period.

Get involved at the grass roots level in your own back yard.
Get so enthused about pursuing activities that promote sustainable independence that your neighbor becomes afflicted with your passion and follows suit.

Build a compost pile.
Build a garden that is a food producing miracle work of art.
Learn about wood gasification and set up to make your own power.
Experiment with methane production starting with a 55 gallon, sealable plastic drum and some grass clippings.
Heat home and water with wood.
Only cut dead or diseased trees.
Save your ashes for your grapes, onions and legumes.
Or, make lye for soap, brain tanning and hominy production.
Build a greenhouse.
Learn to save open pollinated seed varieties.
Lighten your tractor's burden and familiarize yourself with horses and oxen.
Become proficient with an ax.
Stop purchasing products that contribute to landfill profits.
Plant an orchard.
Plant a vineyard.
Read up on Jean Paine and his 100% compost/methane/thermophilic water heating/organic gardening/reforestation/all-around beautification independence genius.......
Think ahead five years or less to the time when transportation costs will prohibit the shipping of food and other goods beyond the distance a horse can carry them in a day or two.
Then, plant a really big garden......

Good luck finding a politician who embraces any of that.
Independence, rights and responsibility are inseparable.
If YOU don't take or accept responsibility, kiss the other two goodbye.

shelljo · #69 03/27/08, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qvrfullmidwife

BTW...many protest mightily about the excesses and dangers of teh PA. As something so heinous and overly used to great detriment, I would think that there would be many people who have first hand accounts (or even second hand accounts) of these infringements. Instead we hear of coulds and shoulds and any actual accounts seem to be related to anecdote or the exception to the rule whereby someone who has, by questionable or illegal behavior, drawn attention to themselves.

Showing you would be great...but that is illegal--according to the PA.

An example.

I'm a librarian. In the patriot act...Section 281 (might not be the exact section, I'm going off memory here) the Federal agencies are given permission to come into any library and sieze our computers and circulation records. We are FORBIDDEN by law --the PA--to tell ANYONE that our records were searched or seized. If I were to even tell my supervisor that they were there, I would go to jail. And, they wouldn't even have to tell anyone--including my DH--why I was in jail.

That's what scares me the most about this PA, that talking about searches and seizures is illegal. THe secrecy scares me--the disregard for my rights, and the rights of my family scares me. It should scare you too.

Shinsan · #70 03/27/08, 09:59 AM

Forerunner, I think we must be reading the same books and websites: We're certainly on the same wavelength.
Jean Paine's genius is something else again, I agree. Have you also read up on Ram Bux Singh (MotherEarthNews issue #18), L. John Fry (MEN #23), Cow Power (MEN #61), and Sichuan's Home Scale Methane Digesters (MEN #96). If you haven't, they are well worth looking at.

Shin

Jolly · #71 03/27/08, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It sounds to me as if you feel our rights are so battered that they aren't worth protecting any longer, and you are ready to trade your constitutional rights for security. Let's recall a quote in a previous post:

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security
----Benjamin Franklin

I'm certainly not the judge of what you deserve, but I do question the effectiveness of taking rights of US citizens away in the name of security. I simply don't see how spying on our own people will improve the current security situation.

It is true that you may not have anything to hide, but there are those who will use any and all information they can get their hands on to your detriment, and those you care about also. Many good people have been ruined by such no-good-doers.

I'm sorry you don't think there are enough fundamental rights left to be worth protecting and longer. I disagree, but I do respect your opinion. I, for one, am not ready to turn my back on the constitution.

I for one, am not in favor of debating with unregistered debators, especially those who frame their argument by espousing a quote that Benjamin Franklin never wrote, or uttered! In fact, Franklin denied said writing in 1760 in a letter to Hume.

The Patriot Act pales besides other legislation enacted in times of war, with example being Lincoln's muzzling of the press during the Civil War, or Wilson's Sedition Act. As has been already stated, there has been much moaning over the PA, but very little to show in actuality of negative impact upon the populance.

If those who argue so vehemently against it, would also argue with equal passion against other vast intrusions into American Liberty, such as Medicare, Medicaid, the burgeoning welfare system, farm subsidies and hiring quotas.

If we shall be free, then let us be truly so.

Or, as the old black folk say, "Let every tub set on its own bottom".

PhilJohnson · #72 03/27/08, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by booga

Personally I think liberals were coddled too much when they were young. They were taught to cry to get attention when they didnt get their way. They would whine and whine for something until they got it. They have little regard for the simple premise whatever they get comes from the pool of money for their parents and other siblings. They decide what they want and then invent justifacations for it.

I mean think about it, did it ever occured to a liberal that an abortion may be a murder? Maybe there is a 1 in 100 chance they are wrong, and that they would be voting for tens of thousands of murders a year? would they reconsider ? Espically considering how they are willing to let so many go free from prisons just to make sure no innocent are jailed (or executed) ?

It tells me they must not believe they can be wrong, or they want to be able to have an abortion, and have justified the right for one.

I have seen too much of what liberalism brings in spoiled children. The older systems my not be 'fair' in the sense you get what everyone else gets, but they are fair in that you know what you will get.

Anyone who cant see that a democratic Iraq, sitting the the middleast, is an asset to peace in the world and safety to the US, is just plain stupid. They justify hating the war, and the president by saying they were tricked. Every major power in the world, and even the UN said there were WMD in IRAQ before the war !!! Your memories are so short ! I guess time has passes, you forgot about the americans jumping from the WTC, desperatly trying to avoid the heat and smoke. You forget about the ones who undoubtley got sliced by razors trying to stop the hijackers in PA. The ones who Cried out in fear when they saw the building getting closer and closer.

The world is an unfair, unsafe place. Building unatural systems around it will only ensure civilizations will fall instead of men. The laws of men do not affect natural laws. They can decrease the chance of a individual being harmed, but only by burdening the whole. Like putting all your eggs in one basket, decreases your change of breaking AN EGG carrying them one at a time, but inceases your chance of breaking all the eggs. And given enough time carring a basket of eggs , you will break them all. And breaking all the eggs is far worse than breaking an egg here and there.

Apparently You forgot that out of all the the hijackers, none of them were Iraqi. You also forgot that the UN wanted a little more time before the Iraq war began to continue to look for WMDs. If my memory serves I believe the UN did not support us going into Iraq.

Perhaps you are confusing Iraq with Afghanistan? Easy to do I suppose. Culture is similar, people look similar. Heck I have been accused of confusing Canada for the United Kingdom. They both look and act similar.

Also why bring in the issue of abortion into this discussion? It has no bearing on the Iraq war or terrorism. It seems like the abortion issue is used by conservatives to try and muffle opposing viewpoints. Heck I heard a conservative bring up the abortion issue when she was arguing about why we shouldn't do any thing to protect the environment .

To me killing is killing, doesn't matter if the victim is unborn, soldier, or civilian. This war has killed 4000 of our soldiers, and many more times that amount of life has been lost on the Iraqi side of things. There have been more people lost in the Iraq war than during 9/11.

As far as Iraq being a beacon of democracy in the middle east, this remains to be seen. All I can say is the last time the US tried to bring democracy to a country that "needed" it, the whole thing ended badly (Vietnam War or as they call in over there the American War).

In Afghanistan we had every right to invade and make the necessary sacrifices to take down the Taliban. If your memory serves you correctly, the UN and most of the world was with us on that one.

Iraq is a completely different story. There was no concrete WMD evidence, Saddam did not like religious extremist, heck he didn't even like Iran. What made Iraq more than a target than say North Korea. If memory serves you, you should be able to recall that North Korea said they had nuclear weapons and they were willing to use them preemptively, against the US if they had to. Saddam made no such threats.

Where is our 40 nation coalition now? Looks like the coalition of the willing was not so willing. There is an old saying which I think is very applicable to this situation. It goes like this,"Don't bite off more than you can chew." Spreading our forces and money thin only weakens us as a nation. This can not go on forever. We are weaker now than at any point in the last 30 years.

Our "eggs" are everywhere. Spread far and wide, making them easier targets for the weasels of the world. Russia learned the "egg" lesson as you call it. And egg here, and egg there broken. After time all the eggs broke. We are following suit.

Resources spread far and thin can and often do lead to collapse, doesn't matter if your the world police or a flaming communist empire of evil. Look at China, they don't meddle and get their fingers in the pie all the time like Russia did or the US for that matter. Everyone here would agree that China is a strong nation. They concentrate on themselves first. They don't foolishly waste resources on pointless conflicts.

texican · #73 03/27/08, 11:07 AM

All I got was a dead link at http://www.welcometothepatriotact.com/means.html like one of those links that have gone belly up, and some marketer is keeping it up to snare people, redirect requests, and get a penny here and there...

I think the Patriot Act is mean.

Poor old progressive socialist 'travellers' are finding it difficult to contact their fellow travelers overseas, without worrying about their conversations being listened to. Irony is, that if the travellers were to get in complete control of this country, they'd impose those same 'restriction of rights' on everyone.

A free society allows those who don't believe in freedom, to work the system, to their advantage, and if those who don't believe in freedom gain control, freedom is gone forever.

The ones that scream the loudest are those that would deny all of our freedoms, if they could just dis arm us and turn us into dependent slaves.

fishhead · #74 03/27/08, 11:31 AM

That's right. Congress gave Bush a free pass in order to force Saddam to take the threats seriously enough to allow inspectors back into Iraq. The inspectors returned and were not finding any WMDs. Bush gave them notice to evacuate and pulled the trigger despite being asked for more time by the inspectors.

Why isn't he standing before the court in the Hague?

NWoods_Hippie · #75 03/27/08, 11:39 AM

Wow, how does one actually find posts from August of 2004 so as to continue a THREAD that hasn't been posted on almost four YEARS!!???

Margie

PhilJohnson · #76 03/27/08, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWoods_Hippie

Wow, how does one actually find posts from August of 2004 so as to continue a THREAD that hasn't been posted on almost four YEARS!!???

Margie

Ha! I didn't even notice the dates. Just assumed since it was on the first page of Homesteading Questions that it was a recent thread. Must be dead thread revival week or something.

T Rice · #77 03/27/08, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWoods_Hippie

Wow, how does one actually find posts from August of 2004 so as to continue a THREAD that hasn't been posted on almost four YEARS!!???

Margie

I didn't even notice the date. All these years my freedoms have been being viciously ripped away from me and I didn't even notice.

Bonnie L · #78 03/27/08, 01:17 PM

Quote:

If you don't have anything to hide, why don't you register?

When Mike Royko wrote about the nosiness of government, he would often get calls from people who would say: If you don't have anything to hide, you should go along with it.

So he would turn the tables on these people by asking for full name, address, phone number. They would ask why & he'd say "newspaper policy". Then he would start asking personal questions about family & so on. By that time his callers would get huffy. He would then ask: Do you have something to hide? Just answer the questions." Most would hang up on him.

I guess they all had something to hide!

texican · #79 03/27/08, 01:52 PM

DOH!

No wonder the OP's link is dead.

Hooligan · #80 03/27/08, 02:45 PM

Still relevant today, if not even more so.