"Welcome to The Patriot Act"

I still don't see how spying on US citizens can improve the current security situation. Until someone can provide a credible argument supporting that security is likely to improve by curbing our constitutional rights, I have to believe our government simply wants more power and authority.

our country, is no longer ,for the people and by the people. IT is big business, and the president is ceo, and there for a dictator, and he does what he want , to a degree, the senators, run many things. But the senators, and all millionaires. what happened top the grocery store owner being senator, r the local farmer, those days are gone, now it is the rich and super rich, and tht is bad, because they have no idea, what our lives are like.

And thank you for posting it. Every word of it is true.

For those of you who think the P.A. keeps Americans secure and safe - read about American citizens who are on the no-fly list for no good reason. If they strip us completely of our rights, who will keep us safe then?
If they EVER strip us from the right to bear arms, we're toast.

We are not safe from Al Qa'ida. If you don't believe me take a tour around a few Public University Campuses. One of the top majors for middle eastern students is Engineering and Computer Science. Guess what they learn? And there is no way the govt. will turn down foreign students - they pay the largest tuition fees. BIG MONEY.

The Patriot Act may give the govt. more power to seize records and detain people, but if they use that against their own citizens and lose sight of who the real enemy is, we're doomed.
The Extremists don't need guns to take us down, nor loads of money, they just need the education and materials to accomplish the job. And they are getting that, and we're sponsoring them. We help them keep their Visas and provide them with the material and knowledge they need to bring us down.
I once read a quote that went something like this, "This country won't fall by invasion from the outside, it will come crashing down from within."
Divide and conquer.

If the Patriot Act makes people feel comfortable, they are in for a rude suprise.

__________________
Vickie

Exactly right Vicki!

To expand on your post, people need to understand that the war on terror will not be won defensively and it will not be won offensively. The war on terror can only be won by removing the motivation to commit acts of terror.

Why won't defensive tactics work? There are too many potential terrorists in to many places with too many ways to to do it, and all of those factors are constantly changing. Attempting to control terrorism defensively is a cat and mouse game with no end.

Why won't offensive tactics work? Terror is difficult to take offensive action against because the enemy is difficult to identify. When we can identify the enemy they aren't afraid to die, and we often create myrtars when they are killed.

Offensive and defensive actions make good press, spur the economy, make the government more powerful, and provide candidates with a political football that no politician can resist.

OD that poem is not by an unknown, it was written by a teen not to many years back whose name is Thelen Paulk, it was widely played by Mark Kornke on his republic radio out of michigan about 10 years ago, Mark is still incarcerated on trumped up charges, his wifes house was raided because she continued to run the radio station out of the house and told the truth about the meanderings of the gubbermint. There are several reasons to not want the "patriot" act in place, for one this countries system of government is supposed to be a REPUBLIC, not a communist, socialist, DEMONacracy that it has become, where by people expect to be mollycoddled from craddle to grave with handouts given them at every turn by hard working stable people.

The elections are a sham, not done in accordance with the constitution, the money we use is not in accordance with the constitution, the laws passed by various states and by congress themselves abbrogate the very constitution they purportedly are to serve and protect, yet the people hold out their hand and accept payoffs to let the power of the people become the power of the public servant. The people deserve the slavery they have brought upon themselves, it is no wonder that Almighty God brought destruction to Baylon, Sodom and such several thousand years back, it will be no suprise that He does so again to this once great Nation that has allowed immoral people to make law that makes morals obsolete, punishes those who would stand up against immoral acts, let alone abrogates the very rights people once had and held as soverign people. No longer are we Freemen and Freewomen, we are beholden to a corporation, the city of london, through its delegates in Washington D & C.

Yes revelution is nigh, although methinks it will be bloodless as no one has the guts to stand up and fight the immoral so called leaders that have continued to perpetuate this atrocity upon us. And yes my phone is tapped, my file is in the red file of the county sherriff, and I know the alphabet soup people have me on record as well somewhere as subversive to their cause.....

Where are the others such as Joel Rosen around the country when you need them? Why keep poltical prisoners if they really did not commit the crime for which they are held? Why allow people to think they are free only to cause them to perih prematurely and tax their families for dieing early?

OK my soap box is tilting over agian......

May YHVH bless those who would fight right from wrong.

William

__________________
Upon the plains of hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions, who when on the dawn of victory paused to rest, and there resting died.
- John Dretschmer

I love history. When I read or hear about the PA, I always think about the Jews and the Hitler regime. Hitler was elected. Germany was a democracy. First was the confiscation of guns in order to keep everyone "safe". What helped Hitler more than anything was the underlying civil war that pitted citizen against citizen, race against race, religion against religion. Hitler ceased to be an elected leader and became a self elected dictator. The Jews went to concentration camps still denying that their government could do this to them. Their freedoms were violated over and over and still they were dumbstruck.

You can't legislate "safe".

There is a growing division in this country that could develop into a civil war. Never have so many people been so angry at others that think differently than they do.

The PA is no big deal until someone comes along sometime and decides to use it for their own personal gain and power. Imagine John Ashcroft as President! Imagine 100 years from now and another like Hitler taking office. Our founding fathers tried to put into place laws that would prevent someone like Hitler from taking over the way he did in Germany. Since 9/11 we have been on a bullet fast course to change all that.

Thanks Blu3duk, I'm changing it.
I love that poem & used to listen to the program that played it at the beginning, as much to hear the poem, as for the program itself. I just recently found a copy in a book catalog, but it said author unknown. OUVicky is right, every word is absolutely true.

oh , I agree. I have one sister in law, that I love dearly, but she just keeps saying , we need another revolation to get this country back to being America, that our for fathers fought for and set up. We are being taxed to death. and the gov. is draining us dry. now the poor people out wet, can't build where they want on their own land, 65% I think it is , ahs to stay naturl. please. this is too much. and people can't live in most parts of our mountains, they are national forest, or parks. please, let this country belong to the people. why is the gov. telling us where to live.? Milloins of acres are going for parks, this could be land that people could be living on, making a go of it whith their families. and a nother thing, did you know that clinton, goave some of our national parks to the UN check it out. you will be very surprised.I was. just like the gov. has all of these forign troops here in this contry, training, why so they can go home ad attack us? how dumb. and most americans don't even reailze that they are here. that is the scarey part.

Lets put a camera in your home,you have nothing to hide."I wont stand for that!"
Ok,lets put it on a pole outside your house and zoom in,"I will close my curtains".Ok,how about infrared cameras.Face it,its a slippery slope,give up some,you will lose it all
BooBoo
Yes,i read all your posts,just commenting on the above,which so many find acceptable

Most of you are living in the past. Privacy is dead. It truely doesnt exist anymore. Adjust. And there is no defense for terrorism, in this day, there is no defense for smallpox, anthrax, or the really scarry stuff they dont even talk about. The simple fact of technology is, a single vile of the right stuff could kill 99% of Americans. Terrorists are getting smarter and realizing they could just kill us all off with a biological weapon, instead of just splattering a few of us at a time ala Israel. The us Gov knows this, but they sure arent gonna tell us we could be all die from some basement lab 7,000 miles away. Havent you noticed how everyone gets jumpy at West Nile, Sars, Aviary Flu, etc ? You want to see nasty, just wait until a bio-weapon is delivered , and we start quarantines. Another nasty weapon, harder to build and deliver, but less dangerous to the world at larger would be a cobalt type device, a nuke laced with cobalt , so that it poisons the bomb, into producing long lived radiation, instead of a big explosion. The nuclear-chemical-biological research didnt end because we could kill each other with it, we could do that with plain nukes, we stopped because it was a cheap way to do it, a way a dozen people with a personal fortune could do it. (AKA terrorists).

Personally i say go rout the out, its our best chance. Of course were not going to let them win, if the US were somehow stuck by such a disease, and most of its population were to die, the middle east would be a smoking glowing crater, and most assuredly the rest of the world would be at war as well.

So in short, sit on your porch and breath the clean country air while you can. Talk with your friends what needs to be done, tommorow and for america, and maybe write alittle online about it. Play with your kids. Sleep as well as you can knowing there are millions of people out there ready to kill us all, in our sleep, if we just look away for a second or two.

Now, if Mr. Clinton were still president, the PA would scare me sh*tless. Seeing as his administration kidnapped children and returned them to a communist state. I guess little Elian was lucky. Lucky he wasn't firebombed and burned alive for having differing religious beliefs......Waco....Ruby Ridge.... If you weren't in the pc column, you were demonized by the left, and subject to a termination of all your rights, up to and including life itself, without trial. The same folks who cry about the evils of the PA were strangely silent about Waco and Ruby Ridge. Why? Because they were goring somebody else's goat.

We are at war. In WW2, certain liberties were curtailed. Our current war is with Islam, whether you want to face it or not, they desire our conversion to Islam or our death. (We haven't put ALL muslims in concentration camps like we did to the Japanese Americans during WW2) As a male, this would affect me to a certain degree, worshipping a pedophilic messiah. To the women on this board, which color burkha do you prefer? I would imagine ritual mutilation on certain body parts would hurt, especially for someone old enough to vote. I always get tingly when progressives wax poetic about the poor oppressed muslims of the world. If Islam were to win this war, all women would be worth less than dogs and cats, with less legal protections than said animals. Almost to a T, everything a progressive loves, would be outlawed by Islam. Most progressives have problems with JudaoChristian morals and ethics...the difference between JudaoChristians and Islam is that JudaoChristians are tolerant of the transgressions of the progressives, preaching against the evil, and pointing figures......the Islamist will simply smite thy neck, a general cure all in Sharia law....noticed three muslims were relieved of their necks this last week in Saudi Arabia...for drinking and homosexual activities....

I could go on and on. I asked recently for first hand accounts of rights abused or lost. Personal abuses. No one could come up with any.

I guess if I put on a turban, strapped a couple dozen road flares to my chest, and walked around the capital, shouting Allah Akhbar, my rights might get trampled on a bit.

Ok. fine. Y'all have convinced me.

I just still think that (1)many of these rights have been gone via attrition years ago (2)I see a clear reason to be hypervigilant in this area.

Do I think it is best? No, cant imagine that anyone in their right mind would. Do I think that it may be the best we can do right now? Probably.


I am much more concerned about the fact that that pseudogovernmental agency, Children's Protective Services, Family services, or whatever their name happens to be in your area has NEVER had to observe anyone's rights. The right to face your accuser? Not when anonymous tips are accepted. Search warrant? Not until recently was this required and most caseworkers still do not believe it. Innocent until proven guilty? Not when they can yank your kids out of their home and have some 24 or more hours to prove to a judge WHY they need to keep them out. And you dare argue? Well then, they say "you dont want to protect the children?" When the question was asked in a foster parents class that I was at "doesnt this violate parent's constitutional rights?" the response was (keep in mind the question was regarding parents about whom no investigation had even been started) "perpetrators HAVE no rights".

I just want to know where all of the people who are up in arms about the PA have been for the past decade or more when CPS has been raiding homes tearing children from their parent's arms all in the name of "protecting the children" while bungling the job when they have the chance? Was it because they didnt have children? Was it because they had already given up so many of their parental rights to other entities that they forgot that they had them? I just dont see how they could not care then, but care now...is it divided along liberal/conservative lines, so that "protecting the children" is an acceptable reason to deprive often innocent people of their rights but protecting the country isnt? Oh yeah...I forgot...the past administartion had this thing for yanking children from arms...

Yeah, the PA isnt ideal. Not sure that anyone said that it was, just that it seems to be necessary for a time. I understand the concerns; both sides. I just dont understand the selectiveness of being concerned over this but not other longstanding infringements of people's rights.

Yeah, call me confused and inconsistent. Maybe I am just tired of having spent years worried about CPS overstepping their bounds with no cause only to see people up in arms over an act that at least seems reasonable for a time of war.

__________________
LeeAnne, wife of Tim's youth, homeschooling mother of twelve seventh generation Texans.

Swede Farm Dairy

Dairy Berries

why not just change the name to the united corporations of america that is all we are now. control is lost and it won't be back the nation is dying no amount of resucitation is gonna revive it nations come and nations go that is the way of history. they all claim title by theft murder and plunder i am sure the next nation to occupy the soil will be the same. Is cheap labor so valuble as to welcome terrorists ?we get what we bargain for. Our enemies are infiltrating our ranks and yet we do nothing but pass silly bills to surrender our rights has anything changed? nope we still have the gates wide open and we take more enemies in every day because our industry simply must have cheaper labor those lazy citizens are wanting to get paid for their labor.

that is ture, to a point.

Absolutely, you are exactly right.

LeeAnne - I did have to deal with Social Services when my daughter was a teenager. They threatened to investigate me because she had been caught with beer at a party (one incident mind you) I threatened to sue them, they backed off in a hurry. Then they made a reference to investigating my daughter when my grandson was having health problems, he was premature for cripes sake - same answer from me "fine, I'll have my attorney get in touch with your supervisor!" Talk about back-pedaling! Some of the SS workers seem to like POWER - threaten them with legal action, then watch their reaction, esp. when they know they don't have any proof.

__________________
Vickie

OBJECTIVES:

1) Stay alive.

2) Work for a better life.

3) Enjoy life.


3 doesnt work without 2, and 2 doesnt work without 1.

You cant live free if you are dead.

Therefore: Give up a few freedoms to stay alive. When were safe, strive for more freedoms. WE ARE AT WAR !

The US was built around a simple premise, one that keeps the US from falling. We have a planned revolution every 2, 4, and 6 years. When enough people get unhappy, things will change. If we re-elect people, its because as a whole we are relativly happy.


By Judy Keen, USA TODAY
LAS VEGAS — President Bush's job-approval rating, a key indicator of an incumbent's chance of being re-elected, has turned upward, the Gallup Poll finds.

The share of Americans who say they approve of the job Bush is doing inched over the 50% mark to 51%. No president who was at or above 50% at this point in an election year has lost.

Matthew Dowd, Bush's campaign strategist, said, "It looks like the American public is not near as pessimistic as Sen. Kerry is."

Bush's job-approval rating hit its low point, 46%, in May.

The poll finds the presidential race essentially tied: Bush leads Kerry 48%-46% among likely voters; independent Ralph Nader has 3%. The difference between Bush and Kerry is within the poll's error margin of +/{ndash}4 percentage points.

oh, this is interesting also,
http://www.pollkatz.homestead.com/fi...1_image001.gif

Mud... I think your 'time line' is a bit naieve. The Patiot Act was written, passed, pushed through legislation, and now enforced by that/those SOMEONES!!! They're already with us. 100 years??? pft. NO WAY!! I wish you were right. :no: But it IS true 'not legistlating 'safe'.. but the "leaders" of our country thougth we'd go for it.. and sure enough.. they're right. ALL together now.... "Baaaaaa Baaaaaaaa".

__________________
"TIMSHEL"
Spoiler ALERT: For those of you who've never read Steinbeck's "East of Eden".... timshel means "thou mayest".

now don't for a minute think i am a commie lover but i am forward thinking enough to understand one concept even comies love their kids may be a shocker but i do think love of our children is universal in all people even our enemies.

"now don't for a minute think i am a commie lover but i am forward thinking enough to understand one concept even comies love their kids may be a shocker but i do think love of our children is universal in all people even our enemies."


ONE WORD: ABORTION