Poor grazing on our land - what now?
 

We moved to this farm 2 yrs ago. We are new to the country and super busy so haven't done a whole lot with the farm yet and it was neglected when we bought it. As far as we know the last animals on here were sheep about 10 years ago who overgrazed it until there was nothing left and he had to get rid of the sheep. Since then it has been vacant of animals. We don't really know what good grazing is, but we are trying to learn. It seems to us that our yard has better grazing than the pastures and hayfields. We are fencing in an area that is in the woods that seems to have a nicer grass mix in it. The pastures are infested with hemlock and the grass that is growing is fescue. It is pale with lots of yellow and dried stuff in it. The yard has fescue that is lush and deep green. We had read that it would be wise to start with fencing in the land and put animals on it to graze it and fertilize it to build it up. But we are wondering if it wouldn't be wiser to burn it all and reseed with orchard grass mix or brome or something that isn't fescue. Our animals don't like it and eat around it grazing between it down to very short rather than eat the fescue. This is all so expensive to make mistakes with and takes time to even do, much less redo if we go in the wrong direction. I'm not sure who to ask for advice. I called the extension service and they didn't seem to eager to talk to me, they wanted me to sign up for the grazing school and I can't learn from it. But my dh can't go due to work, and I can't go because I have little ones. Anyone have advice to offer on what to do with our grazing land?

Some here will want to know your general area to try to help you. You may want to have someone help you with soil samples and getting them tested so you know where to start. You have some knowledge on forages. Study management intensive grazing. Give your extension team another try. Become friends. Do you have a Natural Resources Conservation Service nearby too.

Thank you for the reply! I will look and see if NSRC is near us. Thanks.

We have the book MiG, but it is hard to understand without basic, starting knowledge. We get the concept. Reading the book seemed to put more questions into our heads once you begin thinking about how to actually implement it in real life. We are getting a digital soil tester so we don't have to send in soil samples for each different area.

We are in SW Missouri. Cedar County/Polk County area.

I do know we don't want fescue. Is burning difficult for newbies?? We see folks burn fields around us and they come back nice and green. Seems like, without knowing anything about it, a shortcut to a clean new slate.

I don't like "schools" either and prefer reading and trying things myself. There are a lot of good books and good web sites about grazing. Start here and pick a few:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managed...tional_grazing

or here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=U...&creative=9325

or here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=rota...f-8&gws_rd=ssl

and here:

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/liv...l-grazing.html

There is a tremendous amount of information out there. The web and books work in our own time rather than having to do classes and at our own speeds. I like that.

We do managed rotational grazing of sheep, pigs and poultry. We've been doing it for about 20 years, the pigs for about 12 years. We learned with the sheep. Pigs have become our main business and we have about 400 pigs out on pasture. We started with very poor land. Grazing the land well, using managed rotational grazing techniques and planting it up with legumes and other forages gradually improves the pastures. It is a slow process. Two years is just barely starting. Keep at it. Do more and more every year. In time you'll get things going. Just don't try and take on too many new things at once - big mistake I see people do.

Also plant apple trees now. Some next year. Some the following year. etc. The principle is each year get something going.

The soil test is a good idea. I found it informational. The ag people wanted us to do huge applications of fertilizer and lime - not happening. That is the fast way but very expensive. Fine for a small garden. Still good info. Over time our soil has dramatically improved. One of our little tricks is we buy in winter hay. The animals poop out about 80% or so of what they eat. That means we're constantly building soil. :)

Here's my blog with over 2,000 articles of how we do it on our farmstead:

http://SugarMtnFarm.com

-Walter

Great thread on rotational grazing right here: http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/liv...l-grazing.html

Thank you for the links, both of you! I'll check them out.

I think we are doing too much too soon, but it is sooo hard to cut back! We've waited a lifetime to get here. We feel as if we are trying to make up for all the years we missed out on, fit in experiences our teens want to have fun doing before they leave home, and also repair the damage to the neglected land so that we can actually do what we are trying to do...all with very little knowledge and experience. We joke what a fine tv show we'd make for others to laugh at!

Can we reduce the amount of fescue by seeding for legumes and how do you do that? Do you just broadcast seed in the spring between the clumps of fescue?

I think I would enjoy the grazing school, actually, but I have several little ones at home and a nursing baby so my leaving isn't going to work. Same thing for doing much reading...though I am an avid reader and a huge fan of ingesting information, it just takes me so long to ingest it due to the many demands on my time and attention. I appreciate being able to seek quick and specific advice from others.

I love your Sugar Mountain blog! My son and I have read quite a bit on there! I'll do some more browsing and learning. ;)

howdy neighbor!!! I live in southern polk county. Lots of folks here do. What animal are you getting/have?

I'm in SC so all my advice might not be good for there.

Burning won't kill fescue, it will come back from the roots nice and green. Roundup will kill it(expensive). Plowing it up often during dry weather will kill it. Orchard grass sounds good, but the stand will thin out after a few years so it will need reseeding at some point. Don't have brome here so can't advise about it. A good thick stand of white clover kills out most of the fescue. Grazing pure clover can cause digestive problems in animals. Herd health is usually served best by having a mix of grasses.

COWS

We are on the southern edge of cedar county, just outside of polk county. I'd love to meet some of the homesteading today folks!

We have a very old milk cow, a yearling beef steer, 2 goats, 2 gilts and 60 chickens. And 3 dogs and a lot of cats that keep having kittens. :) We are getting a 2 yr old milk cow due to calve soon. We eventually want to have 2 milk cows. I also want to raise Southdown Babydoll sheep and we want to get a billy so that our 2 girls will have kids.

Personally I would burn it off, if I had the opportunity to do so, just to get rid of all the thatch and kill of any woody plants that are coming up. Burning it will release a lot of nutrients back into the soil too. After its burnt off you will be able to see any junk metal/lumber/etc too that needs to be collected if you are intending to plow or disc the soil before re-planting.

It depends a little on how your land is. If you have land that can be machine worked then that is the more expensive but faster way to do things. With land like ours that is to steep, stumpy, stoney and thin soiled we use animals and the weather. Mob grazing will open up the mat of forages so that new fast growing seed can make a go at it. If you have a few number of animals then you may need to do this in small patches. Be methodical and keep at it. In time it can transform large areas.

We hand broadcast with the frost, the mob and the storm. Over broadcast a little bit. Smaller seeds work better than larger seeds. We have done large areas this way (130 acres).

-Walter

Why not let your son go to grazing school?

geo

This will help you study and get to know your soil. You can hone in on your own farm to see the soil type, its capacity, recommendations for crops, etc. Your county is really variable in its terrain and types of local soils, so, actually, you would need to know what you are doing lest you do waste money--or choose an area to graze that will further undo your soil. You do know that the land formerly used for sheep is really depleted and will need restoration. I imagine you will want to go slow until you gain the knowlege that you need. I feel you will have to spend money for lime and nitrogen to feed the soil, unless you do it slower by the rotational grazing methods. And considering the cost of animal units, it may be equal. You may also need to interseed a grass-legume mix to get the types of grasses you want. Have you considered cattle instead of sheep? It sounds like you will also need some basic equipment--tractor, some kind of tillage tools, electric fencing, mower, bush hog, and so forth in order to get some lasting success.

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FS...0/Cedar_MO.pdf



Good luck.

geo

I suspect you are NOT talking about fescue in your pasture, from your description.

I suspect you are talking about something we call 'broom straw' here..also know as broom sedge, broom grass. It grows tall, (nearly waist high) in clumps, not like a fescue grass (which IS decent pasture grass, by the way). Looks like this growing:

http://extension.missouri.edu/explor...oomsedge01.jpg

Then in the fall, turns to what really does look like something you'd put in a broom (and they actually did, hence the name).

That IS a classic sign of poor pasture. Generally an indication you need lime in a bad way ( the stuff likes acid soils), and nitrogen. Get a couple soil test boxes from the local extension agent, following the instructions on the box for how to sample, and send it to the address on the box for testing. University of Tennessee does ours, the basic test is $7 per box. My guess is you're gonna find your soil ph is down in the 5-5.5 range. But they will tell you for sure, plus how much N,P,K you need to add.

Do the soil test before you go one step further, or you are operating blind.

http://www.ehow.com/how_8687558_rid-broom-straw.html

If this pasture has not been grazed for 10 years, you may have a very good diverse, native pasture but overgrown and width some woody Invaders. I would suggest doing a survey of what is growing. count;y extention agent, government range management specialist, or your local high school ffa chapter may be of help

There are tall yellow dried sprigs here and there dotted around the hayfield that look like that, but that isn't what I was referring to. What I am calling fescue is not tall, though it is a long grass that grows in clusters mostly. I am saying it is pale because it is much lighter green than the fescue that is in our yard. There are also dead yellowed parts to it, but not in our yard.

I was going to insert photos of the hayfield and the pastures, but I can't figure out how to make it work.

I'd love to have a knowledgeable person to come to the farm and look around and talk with us. I learn from that much better than reading and trying to apply knowledge. It all sounds good and understandable until I try to apply it specifically to something and then I get confused and have more questions that I started with! Anyone near Humansville, Missouri that is willing to come visit with us?

To post pics, hit the reply button, then scroll down to the Additional Options section, and Attach Files part of that. Hit the box that says "Manage Attachments".

Another box will open: Upload File From Your Computer. Select the first "Browse" box, and it will go hunting pic files on your computer. Using windows, it will go directly to the Pictures section under Libraries, and you just hunt around for the photo, assuming you have it stored on your computer.

If it's still on your camera, connect your camera to your computer, then look under "Computer" on the left side.....you should see "Local Disc C".....which is your hard drive, and you should also see something for your camera....like "F", or "D" or something.....depending on how many other drives (like CD burners) you have installed in your computer. Hunt in that drive (camera) for the photos. Click around on stuff....it ain't hard.

Once you find the photo you want to show here, click on it....it will go to that "Browse" list. Load up one or more. Then hit Upload. That's it.

Our county soil and water office sent out a specialist at our request, and he drove around with us to look at our pastures, fences, ponds etc. when we first moved onto our farm. He was able to give us some idea of what had been done on our farm by previous owners, as well as giving us an idea of which pastures would probably be ok with just brushhogging vs. which ones would most likely need to be limed (we verified his best guesses with soil testing) and which ones had weeds that needed to be dealt with ASAP.

Part of the reason they encourage the grazing school so much is that once the landowner has completed it, they become eligible for cost share assistance. That can save you a lot of $$ with things like fencing, seeding, livestock wells etc., provided that accepting that assistance is not in conflict with your beliefs. Our district also owns some equipment that landowners can rent, but I'm not sure if you have to complete the grazing school for that or not.

Did you price that Lime? In this area lime is about 10 bucks a ton applied that's $50 a acre pretty cheep for what it does!

Cheap if you need it. I just got my soil test back for my pasture. Ph is 7.2. And this is a pasture that was once woods, and we have no limestone on the place.

Do a soil test.

Lime is cheap.
Spreading lime is extraordinarily expensive - we live in the mountains. Our land is like this:

\
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-- <-- This is an ASCII picture but it does not work on HT.
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Now add boulders.

:)

Lime is cheap.
Spreading it is expensive.

If you want to have forage looking like this you need to go to the cattle forum on this site and read the rotational grazing sticky. This is a pic of the dreaded fescue interseeded with clover and maintained without going to the bank for a loan. Fescue is given a bad name by folks that do not appreciate many of its features. I am unaware of any grass that will give the volume of forage over time without being reseeded. You just need to learn how to manage this plant. I can carry a cow 365 days per year plus her calf from the time it is born to being sold as a feeder calf on 1.4 acres of non irrigated forage on my farm. The calves are not docked at the sale but are typically are sold in the upper 10% of those being marketed. To me fescue is lemonade and not a lemon.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2...Teff3weeks.jpg

Is lime spread different in the mountains than out here in the prairie ? Or do they just charge more?
Ive never farmed more than a rooftop in the mountains.

Collect a soil test or 2, send it in and see what you have.

A home tester to do a good job is a several $1000 item, you aren't really buying anything useful I'm afraid?

Get a real soil test, tells you CEC, organic matter %, soil ph, P, K, several micro nutrients, soil types, and so on. Poke in and get 4-5 samples of dirt 6 inches deep in a circle around you, mix together, and send in a small bag of it. Might want to do 2 or three spots like that if you have different soils, hill, valley, etc. costs about $25 each sample for a good test. Some Extension or govt places will do a free one for a homesteader type.

-Then- you will know where you are at. Once you know, you don't need to sample again for years if you don't want to. So this is cheap!

Your worn out pastures probably have good grass in them, but they are beat up, and the poorer grasses have crowded thrm down.

Most likely you need to adjust your soil ph higher with lime in your area (something to do every 5 or so years in your area) and add some P and K and a little nitrogen and mow the weeds and junk down two times a year.

The good grasses will like that treatment and flourish, and the poorer grasses won't like this system and will fade away.

But it depends on a soil test and you actually following through with adding the lime and nutrients your grasses need.

Mob grazing the current mess and expecting the grazing critters to create more fertilizer than they remove from your pastures and to distribute it evenly is expecting a whole lot..... And does nothing to help the lime issue you probably have.

We feed our kids healthy, we feed our critters healthy, we need to feed our soils healthy too, a proper balance of N, P, and K, with many small amounts of micros and a ph between 6-7.5 and your pasture will take off and be healthy!

Just guessing what you have, and hoping the right stuff gets pooped onto the meadows isn't much of a plan.

You can use comnercial fertilizers, organic fertilizers, different types of manure, whatever makes you happy, but you need to know where you are starting at, so you know what to be adding and how much and where you want to be. Just like we don't want too much or too little protien in our diet, the grasses don't want too much or too little of the different nutrients in their soil. You need to give thrm a balanced meal, and the only way to know is to take a soil test.

Soil ph is important. Low ph means your soil is an acid, and several nutrients get bound up and held -tightly- by an acid. So even if you have lots of a nutrient in your soil; if it is low ph, your poor plant roots can't pry the nutrients loose to use them. The poor plant is starving, even if its roots are soaking in rich soil! So you need to correct a low ph, it is easy to do so. (Where I am I suffer from high ph soil, which creates similar, opposite, problems, and is very hard to correct easily....)

The pic is a soil test I got for one of my fields, I test every 5 acre plot of a field. if you want me to explain things I can, its really neat to see what a person has, and how to feed the soil and the plants!

(Edit: if you look at my soil test, the stuff that says H or VH behind it, I would be wasting money and perhaps adding to pollution to add more of those, while not helping my crops at all; with the soil test I can concentrate on adding the L and VL items to build them up and make my soil and plants happy, and not create more water quality problems in the world. We farmers really have this down to a science, but it can work the same for your pasture as well - if you know what you have, then you know what you need to do to fix it and spend the least amount to make the best soil.)


Paul

In the mountains you can't drive a lime spreader on the fields. This is what drives on our land:

http://sugarmtnfarm.com/blog/uploade...kidFi6826w.jpg
http://sugarmtnfarm.com/2009/08/26/u...ound-electric/

I don't have one that spreads lime and the skidder machine would make a mess of your roof. :) My tractor has the wheels set out to the maximum 8' width and I only drive it on the roads and few relatively flatter areas. Even the skidder has limits. Fortunately livestock can graze on slopes, don't have problems rolling and walk around boulders. Have you seen the movie Heidi? :)

There is an option in some places of spreading it with airplanes but that is very expensive. Out of my pocket book range.

So, yes, the machinery for spreading lime is not applicable to our mountain pastures.

-Walter

Actually the guy that spreads my lime drives something that looks a lot like that skidder. Picture a gravity wagon on top of that skidder and that's about what it looks like. I'm amazed at the places he can go.


E.T.A.: Looks something like this:

http://static1.squarespace.com/stati...5573/image.jpg

The company that spreads lime here has one that looks like that. They refuse to use it on our land. Slope. Rocks. Mountains really are different. Apparently they don't like losing their vehicles...

The difference between that and a skidder is the skidder is both a lot more rugged, a lot more powerful with a much bigger engine, a lot more low slung (center of mass) and the tires on the skidder are a lot larger with honking big chains. The loggers actually do roll their skidders and are none the worse for the wear. Our tractor is more skidderish but I still don't want to roll it.