My advise to people under thirty.

No disrespect Deke, but I missed nothing. These threads are typical, they blanket cover the younger generation as useless. I dare say the ones I associate with would bury their detractors here even if they were in their prime. The kids I work with and supervise are highly educated, trained and motivated. I'm glad they're on our side. I think Stan999 had some good advice for employers too. If you find yourself in an area with "substandard" labor, you should relocate to an area where there's better.

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Who's working for $8/hr? Kids in high school, college kids working their way through, retired people wanting to get out of the house, and people who've made bad decisions throughout their lives.

The last group is what Just Sawing is having to deal with. Unfortunately, that's who goes to the sawmill for a job, usually after being fired from every other job they've had. I can't muster up a lot of sympathy for those types, and I've had hundreds working for me over 35 years in construction. Catching and stacking green lumber is hard on every muscle in your body, and there aren't any old stackers. But, if that's where your decisions in life have landed you, don't blame the employer for recognizing your worth.

I know a sawyer in E Texas who runs his mill by himself. Loads, cuts, stacks - the whole process - with one arm. He's not rich by any means, but he's making a good living for his family.

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LOL!, very true Vikestand.

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Or course that is true for many positions. But sometimes grunt labor is best hired by a working interview. It is far better to have someone show you they can turn a wrench than asking them. People lie. And people desperate for work lie not only to the employer, but to themselves. As previously stated, I've hired more than a 1000 ppl, I even worked as a HR director in 3 companies, and there is no interview as good as seeing someone work.

And even after all the interviewing, reference checking, and testing, I never believed I had a real keeper until after about 6 months. Lots of people can lie and put on a show to try to impress, but they never seemed to be able to hide their true selves for more than 6 months.

Asking a one man mill operation to take time to do hours long and multiple interviews and reference checking is not great advice when hiring a laborer. Just watch them work. I do that all the time on my farm. I give a guy a job for an afternoon or a day and if they work well, I invite them back. Your advice is good for lots of positions, just not the OP's.

Well I'm not going to speak for all the posters, but it seems to me you are the one blanket covering a group. There are lots of fine young people I have been proud to hire. Lots of junk out there too. And that goes for all ages. There are good and bad no matter what large group you use, age, education, military vets, etc.

And then there are lots of good folks who just don't fit in with a company culture. I worked in high tech communications for years for my own company and many others as a consultant. I used to joke that the engineers we hired from AT&T couldn't go to the bathroom by themselves because they were used to a company culture that required they first check in with the VP of Toilet Paper. They felt comfortable in a big company culture, but the places where I worked were all fast growing, hard charging places. But he also hired some great people from AT&T/MCI/Sprint who did make the transition well.

The super smart business owner making dimensional lumber isn't stacking it by hand. Thanks for making the case for me.


Here is the perfect example.

Originally Posted by emdeengee View Post
Henry Ford was an employer who understood this. He was paying his workers $5 a day when everyone else was paying $2 a day. And since his workers had money in their pockets they were spending it (including on Model Ts) which contributed to the economy. And surprisingly enough the fact that he paid his employees more did not make him any less rich. He understood that there was no such thing as a trickle down economy - that money had to flow at all levels but especially at the middle class in order for a country to prosper.

Yes that is exactly what I was attempting to say but on proof reading I see that I left out a part - it should have read
Quote --He understood that there was no such thing as a trickle down economy unless you pay your workers adequately - that money had to flow at all levels but especially at the middle class in order for a country to prosper.

Yep, that policy has been working for him so far I'd keep it up.

Very good post. I do have to question the motives of the people you cited above who think that $8/hr work is "beneath them". Heck, they are on a homesteading forum! If they can't handle hard work, how will they ever be able to maintain a working homestead?

Shoot, the homeschooled teens will likely be going to college and being the bosses of the public school kids who think that hard work is "beneath them".

See, it's that kind of narrow thinking that makes most people fail at business. I'm going to make an assumption, that the OP is in business for one primary purpose, to make money. If that assumption is true, his goal isn't to keep people employed, or to reduce employee turnover. We really don't know if his policy has worked or not, because we don't have his books to examine, nor should we.

Some larger businesses use employee turnover as a proxy for various reasons. It isn't always a good proxy. A hotel I managed in Ft Lauderdale had very high turnover compared to the others in the chain in northern states. But my hotel had the most improvement in bottom line for 2 years running and I got awards and bonuses for that. I managed with the goal of keeping the investors happy and that meant they wanted the place to quit taking $60+K / month out of their pockets each month.

He's here as the owner/operator saying he can't hire/keep qualified help, his employment model appears to not be working, which I would think is affecting his business model

I am 38.

Actually, you did miss the point. While you may work with many highly motivated under-30 types whom have a good work ethic, anecdotal evidence is not the end all of empiricism. The OP and those who agree with him, like me, are making a distinction between your hard working "millennials" and the people of the same generation who feel entitled and don't think that they even have to show up to work to earn a paycheck.

It has always taken me more time than usual to get jobs requirements down pat. Ive been near let go cause it was taking me longer than others they had delt with. BUT when I got it down, I had it down. Everybody liked my work after that nearly. I could go back to where I ended up and likely get right back on. At that place I nearly got fired figuring out the computer time clock. That was before I had my own puter, not that I know much about mine now. Way it worked, IF you wernt clocked in at 7 that was one strike. 3 and you were out. I could always find someone important to vouch that I was there before 7, but it was close.

Wishing success for people could be the motive. Advocating anyone work for 8 dollars an hour in this economy of rising prices and falling quality of life is just plain wrong. It has nothing to do with a job being beneath anyone. If the job can't pay well eliminate it. It's frankly not worth anyones time.

That is something that all you supply sider haters don't understand. A company can afford to pay their employees well precisely because of the tax cuts that allow them to keep more of their own money and invest it in the company. The other thing that you don't understand is that trickle down economics did not exist in Henry Ford's time for the reason that I mentioned above - there was no income tax to manipulate prior to the 16th Amendment, and it took years for the tax code to become oppressive enough that incentives were even feasible.

On what basis do you state that a job is not worth anyone's time because of the wage level?

On the basis that one can't afford to have a place to live and eat at such a wage. Let alone pay for any health issues that could happen from long term abuse of their body in hard labor type jobs.

As I said earlier.... If a company can't pay better than 8 dollars an hour the service they provide is best eliminated or mechanized so labor can be focused on things that provide a better living going forward. The OP was discussing moving boxes... Would a machine show up every day? Would it come in drunk or stoned? Would it need sick days? No to all of the above. If the OP can't afford a machine... They have two choices... Provide a better job so he can get a reliable employee. Or eliminate the low pay low skill position. He isn't doing anyone any favors limiting his business by hiring low skill workers. Not him and not his present or future employees.


P.S. No I don't care about the providing jobs to the low/non skilled. Sink or swim.

8.00 an hour jobs rule down in the southland, convenience store clerks, grocery store clerks, home depot, lowes, pretty much any fast food place is going to pay about that or less (minimum wage).

Now really, are you going to pay more for that hamburger to cover the cost of paying more to the hamburger flipper? I don't think so.

America wants stuff cheap, and fast. Most don't care much about quality anymore and those that do, will order what they want from a company that puts out quality goods rather than buy from Walmart.

So if you think you will eliminate the 8.00 an hour jobs because "it just isn't worth the time", you are going to increase the unemployment roles by a huge amount because most 8.00 an hour jobs go to those that
a) are just starting in the labor force - no experience, young kids, etc.
b) have a real problem holding any type of job, so this is about all they can do whether that is due to drugs, alcohol, prison, no education, etc.
c) Retired folk who just want to piddle around and get out of the house

or d) those that have been laid off and want to work but can't find work in their field so they take whatever is available until they can find work.

or like me - I worked an 8.00 an hour job at Home Depot in addition to my regular 40 hour a week job..to pay my farm off early. Worked that job for 2.5 years and applied all the money I earned to my mortgage. Worked for me, and as soon as I paid the farm off, I quit.

So you think that 8.00 an hour is not "worth it?" Maybe not to you, but to many it is better than nothing and can lead to better opportunities.

I have never seen a HT board where folks seem to think that working at physical labor is "beneath them" even at 8.00 an hour. I breezed racehorses for 5.00 an hour without insurance just because I needed a JOB. I was up at 3 am and on the track by daylight with my first ride of the day, rode 6 racers before 10:00 am. I was young, but not dumb, I wanted a job and that one paid straight money.

Folks who want to work will work. Those that don't, find an excuse.

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