Flatlanders Want to Be Vermont Homesteaders

**highlands** · #21 02/10/15, 02:13 PM

Given that they're planning seven years in advance I would say they're setting themselves up for success, not failure and a handle on the whole romantic notions issue.

I do find it a shame that people use the examples of the high cost areas like Woodstock, Norwich and Burlington to claim that Vermont is high cost. It isn't true. The reality is that most of the state is very affordable and if you're self motivated you make your own work.

Try. You die either way.

-Walter

Gravytrain · #22 02/10/15, 04:03 PM

Vermont ranks as the 7 worst state when it comes to the total state tax bill...this includes property taxes, state and local income taxes, vehicle property taxes, vehicle sales taxes, sales and use taxes, fuel taxes, etc.

However since the OP is coming from the #1 worst taxed state in the union, it might be a relief for them. I was surprised to learn that Maine is actually #10 and Taxachusetts didn't make the top 10 in total state taxes, but was #6 for property taxes.

It seems these things are all relative. If all you know is high taxes, they may not seem high to you. Highlands, you also may not feel the pinch like many of your fellow Vermonters may. IIRC you live in a very small house (in part at least to avoid a high tax bill?), on non-tillable land in presumably a rural county. In addition, you don't seem like you live "high on the hog" (pun intended), so many of the "luxury items" that regularly get taxed might not affect you.

Obviously, different areas of a state will be worse than others as far as local taxes are concerned...especially property taxes. In the list below, PA shows an average of $8300/year in local and state taxes. That would be a fair bit higher than what I would pay, but two of my brothers who live in Eastern PA pay well over $8,000 JUST IN PROPERTY TAXES! I pay much, much less than that.

A previous poster suggested that $4-5000 /acre in central NY was reasonable. In my neck of the woods, that would buy me 3 acres of good tillable land or 2 acres of good hardwoods with 1/3 to 1/4 of the taxes that you'd owe in CNY. Again, if that is what you are accustomed to, it doesn't seem unreasonable.

Rank

State

Avg. Annual State & Local Taxes

% Difference from National Avg.

Adj. Rank (based on Cost of Living Index)

1 Wyoming $2365 -66% 1
2 Alaska $2791 -66% 4
3 Nevada $3370 -52% 2
4 Florida $3648 -48% 3
5 South Dakota $3766 -46% 5
6 Washington $3823 -45% 6
7 Texas $5193 -25% 7
8 Delaware $5195 -25% 12
9 North Dakota $5588 -20% 13
10 Colorado $5674 -19% 14
11 New Mexico $5822 -16% 8
12 Alabama $5846 -16% 9
13 Arizona $6057 -13% 17
14 Utah $6098 -13% 11
15 Mississippi $6210 -11% 10
16 Indiana $6358 -9% 15
17 Louisiana $6564 -6% 18
18 West Virginia $6598 -5% 19
19 Montana $6641 -5% 20
20 Oklahoma $6795 -2% 16
21 Massachusetts $6884 -1% 35
22 Rhode Island $6905 -1% 40
23 South Carolina $7070 1% 24
24 Missouri $7220 4% 22
25 Tennessee $7252 4% 21
26 Georgia $7319 5% 25
27 Virginia $7333 5% 29
28 New Hampshire $7419 6% 41
29 Hawaii $7427 7% 48
30 Kentucky $7472 7% 23
31 Arkansas $7557 8% 26
32 Ohio $7604 9% 28
33 Kansas $7695 10% 30
34 Idaho $7776 12% 27
35 North Carolina $7789 12% 32
36 Michigan $7867 13% 31
37 District of Columbia $8034 15% 46
38 Minnesota $8261 19% 36
39 Pennsylvania $8344 20% 34
40 Oregon $8416 21% 42
41 Maryland $8571 23% 44
42 Maine $8622 24% 43
43 Iowa $8788 26% 33
44 New Jersey $8830 27% 47
45 Vermont $8838 27% 45
46 Wisconsin $8975 29% 39
47 Illinois $9006 29% 38
48 Connecticut $9099 31% 49
49 Nebraska $9450 36% 37
50 California $9509 36% 50
51 New York $9718 39% 51
Source: Wallethub.com
http://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-...taxpayer/2416/

**highlands** · #23 02/10/15, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravytrain

Highlands, you also may not feel the pinch like many of your fellow Vermonters may. IIRC you live in a very small house (in part at least to avoid a high tax bill?), on non-tillable land in presumably a rural county. In addition, you don't seem like you live "high on the hog" (pun intended), so many of the "luxury items" that regularly get taxed might not affect you.

Aye, so making what I would consider good choices resulted in good results. I purposefully researched the town taxes before I bought property and bought in a low property tax town. I purposefully bought property that was valued lower as it is mountain but fits my personal needs. I purposefully built a house that is small and built with low grade materials (masonry) because I read the appraisal book and knew ahead of time what I would get appraised like. (Masonry is also low maintenance and long lasting - added benny.) I live low on the hog.

Interestingly, all of these things would have been more expensive in neighboring NY, NH, MA, CA, RI. Cheaper in Maine. I priced it all out. I had already decided that I wanted to be in this area as I have family in VT, NH, ME, MA so then it became other choices after that. My research does not agree with the cite you listed so my suspicion is they have different assumptions. Different lifestyles.

So we all make our choices. The cost of living here is very low. The taxes are not high and that can be managed more with prudent choices.

What ever the original poster's reasons or places I think they'll probably do well because they are thinking it out seven years in advance. Long term planning pays off.

Cheers,

-Walter

dltasig7 · #24 02/17/15, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highlands

There is a car dealership about 7 minutes from us, another about 15 minutes and several more within half an hour in multiple directions.

It is important, no matter where you go, to go in slowly. This is true of Vermont, NH and all sorts of places. The problem, the reason "flatlanders" get a bad name is they come into the town and start trying to change things and tell people what to do. That's the worst way to do it. New people need to ease in slowly. Be nice but don't be trying to change the local government, zoning, regulations, etc. That really ------ of the people who have been there for generations. They rightfully feel invaded.

Funny, I live on a farm in VT and see the opposite. Lots of work, taxes are reasonable, most people around here are around a reasonable income distribution. Perhaps you're in one of those places like Woodstock that I noted above which are pockets of great wealth.

A great many folks around here make their own jobs. Lots of small employers who employ a few people and lots of people who work for themselves doing things, like farming, forestry, carpentry, roofers, electricians, plumbers, lawyers, doctors, dentists and even some car dealers.

Most of all, Vermont is not uniform, it is not vanilla, it is not all the same. Pick your location carefully to match your goals. If you want high cost of living and fancy then Woodstock is the place to be. If you want least expensive then the North East Kingdom fits the bill. Lots in between. What there isn't any of in Vermont is cities. What we call cities here in Vermont would be called small towns in most of the country.

Have fun planning your move. It's a journey in many ways.

-Walter

Thanks Walter!

I too smell a rat...

We have planned a trip to VT this July, and will be staying about 1/2 hour from your farm.

dltasig7 · #25 02/17/15, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highlands

Aye, so making what I would consider good choices resulted in good results. I purposefully researched the town taxes before I bought property and bought in a low property tax town. I purposefully bought property that was valued lower as it is mountain but fits my personal needs. I purposefully built a house that is small and built with low grade materials (masonry) because I read the appraisal book and knew ahead of time what I would get appraised like. (Masonry is also low maintenance and long lasting - added benny.) I live low on the hog.

Interestingly, all of these things would have been more expensive in neighboring NY, NH, MA, CA, RI. Cheaper in Maine. I priced it all out. I had already decided that I wanted to be in this area as I have family in VT, NH, ME, MA so then it became other choices after that. My research does not agree with the cite you listed so my suspicion is they have different assumptions. Different lifestyles.

So we all make our choices. The cost of living here is very low. The taxes are not high and that can be managed more with prudent choices.

What ever the original poster's reasons or places I think they'll probably do well because they are thinking it out seven years in advance. Long term planning pays off.

Cheers,

-Walter

We intend to do WHATEVER it takes to make this work, and if that means candle light and rain barrel showers for a while, so be it.

dltasig7 · #26 02/17/15, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtwhelen

I live on a farm in Vt and harry chickpea has it right. No jobs,high taxes and large disparity in income. If you dont have a goverment job its real hard. We also dont need any more flatlanders. Flatlanders move to the state for the "quility" of life and then vote to make this statr just like were they came from

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I847 using Tapatalk 2

We might just be the flatlander exception. Some of the main reasons why VT is on the table is exactly because we like VT politics, life, etc. just the way they already are. Isn't that what America is all about? Freedom to come and go, and make whatever life we want for ourselves - ANYWHERE? But thanks for the encouragement and vote of confidence!

dltasig7 · #27 02/17/15, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjon

if u ignore Cuomo,we here in cny have cheap taxes-decent crop growin climate-easy access to garden markets.heres the but-tillable ground here In Cayuga county is climbing quickly in price.our road is only 4 miles long-rural still, north end=$5000 an acre,south end - just brought $4500 an acre.all above is sandy loam.and I sit in the middle with my 31 acres. retirement plan?don't know yet,but not Vermont or n.h.been there liked them,maine also-nah-too cold.my point is u can homestead here in n.y.

Been in Rochester all my life, but have travelled (and hunted, visited, camped and fished all the rest of NY. Know it all like the back of my hand.) It's a beautiful state, but IMHO has corrupt government on ALL levels, stupid gun laws, high taxes, and too many people among many, many other complaints I have.) Thanks, but no thanks.

sdnapier · #28 02/17/15, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dltasig7

7 Years may seem like a ways away, but that's when my wife and I will have the last kid out of high school and can move to "the country" to start a homestead. We are very seriously considering Vermont. We know we can't jump in with both feet right away, but we need to begin planning, saving, visiting the state to see where we'd like to purchase land, etc.

Mostly we want to know what we'd start up right away, gradually get into, and what we need to read up on in the mean time.

We'd definitely be starting up on a budget!

We're NOT "city dwellers." For instance, our idea of camping luxuries are a water source, dry wood, a tent and a sleeping bag. I'm an experienced hunter and fisherman, and have gardened all my life. I'm very handy with construction and carpentry and have done a lot of landscaping (including tree care.)We are both very experienced in Outdoor Skills.

Having said all that, we can't believe what we read about Vermont being so expensive that it's impossible to "make it" there from scratch. One of us would have at least a full time job to start, and we plan on eating as much of what we hunt and otherwise produce on our own as soon as possible. Anything beyond plumbing, electric, a land line, a pick-up and a gun store will be considered extreme luxuries. (Heating with wood, etc.)

Anybody want to talk us out of it?

I have visited Vermont several times for work and I am always asked if I am from Vermont (I am from Maine). When they find out I am not a native the attitude changes. You will have a very hard time being accepted.

Seriously??? How could EVERYONE be from Vermont? It's a tiny little state!

dltasig7 · #29 02/18/15, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdnapier

I have visited Vermont several times for work and I am always asked if I am from Vermont (I am from Maine). When they find out I am not a native the attitude changes. You will have a very hard time being accepted.

Seriously??? How could EVERYONE be from Vermont? It's a tiny little state!

That's just fine with us. I haven't looked for acceptance from anyone since kindergarten. We plan on minding our own business for the most part anyway.

"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away." -- Henry David Thoreau

99% of Vermonters will never even know we're there (unless you count the bears and deer in a census) until they need something from us (like taxes or help changing a flat.)

dltasig7 · #30 03/10/15, 10:20 AM

Back to the subject of moving to VT to ruin it by re-creating the mess that is NYS, we wouldn't dream of it! As I said in another post on HT, much of what motivates us to look at VT is it's current political climate.

However, I'm hearing some things from a close family member who is very aware of our desire to move there (and has in fact been talking about making it a two- or joint-family venture) that are disconcerting; concerning the direction that VT politics are headed. It may not be enough for us to change our minds, but it does give one pause.

Gravytrain · #31 03/10/15, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dltasig7

Back to the subject of moving to VT to ruin it by re-creating the mess that is NYS, we wouldn't dream of it! As I said in another post on HT, much of what motivates us to look at VT is it's current political climate.

However, I'm hearing some things from a close family member who is very aware of our desire to move there (and has in fact been talking about making it a two- or joint-family venture) that are disconcerting; concerning the direction that VT politics are headed. It may not be enough for us to change our minds, but it does give one pause.

Just out of curiosity...what about its current political climate do you like? Other than Vermont having the best gun laws in the New England... what else is not New Yorkish?

**highlands** · #32 03/10/15, 01:05 PM

One thing I would hazard is that while we have a fairly liberal left leaning political climate we also have less government regulation and interference than New York state based on conversations with other homesteaders and farmers I've had over the years. Vermont is an interesting mix. Keep in mind, it has not always been liberal. It swings around the mid-pole not being particularly extreme in either direction.

-Walter

dltasig7 · #33 03/10/15, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravytrain

Just out of curiosity...what about its current political climate do you like? Other than Vermont having the best gun laws in the New England... what else is not New Yorkish?

Our political leanings are a bit of a conundrum. We are obviously not in lockstep on every single issue, but we feel very much that some of the best years have passed America by. We hate having to chose the lesser of two evils at the polls, which should be telling in that we don't follow party-line either. Even the term libertarian is not fully descriptive...

To directly answer your question, more centrist less government interference, overregulation, etc. More for the taxpayer and environment than the big businesses. The new GMO law for one is very appealing for instance. The fracking ban is also commendable (except I understand a moot point as there is no frackable shale under VT.) As you have pointed out, we LOVE the gun laws. We like a lot of what Sanders has to say as well. There is also no NYC that heavily influences the political climate as it does in NY.

Gravytrain · #34 03/10/15, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dltasig7

Our political leanings are a bit of a conundrum. We are obviously not in lockstep on every single issue, but we feel very much that some of the best years have passed America by. We hate having to chose the lesser of two evils at the polls, which should be telling in that we don't follow party-line either. Even the term libertarian is not fully descriptive...

To directly answer your question, more centrist less government interference, overregulation, etc. More for the taxpayer and environment than the big businesses. The new GMO law for one is very appealing for instance. The fracking ban is also commendable (except I understand a moot point as there is no frackable shale under VT.) As you have pointed out, we LOVE the gun laws. We like a lot of what Sanders has to say as well. There is also no NYC that heavily influences the political climate as it does in NY.

I was with you all the way until you got to the fracking ban and Bernie Sanders. The reason you have crippling government interference and overregulation in NY is because you have an overly socialistic state government. Bernie Sanders is a REAL bona fide, loud and proud socialist. If ole' Bernie had his way, Vermont would make NY look like Texas. The fact that Vermonters reelected the man raises my eyebrows...as well as his counterpart Leahy.

I used to do a lot of business in Vermont in the past, but haven't spent much time up there in several years. I have a couple different relatives that I visit up there occasionally. They tend to disagree with you on the level of regulation that exists in Vermont, but everything is relative I suppose.

**highlands** · #35 03/10/15, 07:58 PM

I vote for Bernie Sanders because I have seen no viable opponent. Are you running?

Gravytrain · #36 03/10/15, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highlands

I vote for Bernie Sanders because I have seen no viable opponent. Are you running?

No. I was going to say I didn't think Vermonters would take kindly to a carpetbagger...but Bernie is from Brooklyn, so maybe I'd have a shot?

If there is a race that doesn't have a viable candidate, then I refuse to pull the lever for that race. Bernie's beliefs are the polar opposite of mine. I'm a free enterprise/free market, personal responsibility/personal reward kind of guy. I don't like corporatism...Bernie doesn't like corporations.

Will you be my campaign manager?

dltasig7 · #37 03/11/15, 09:57 AM

The 2012 Vermont election for US Senator:

http://ballotpedia.org/United_States..._Vermont,_2012

The Republican runner-up got his tail kicked, 3 to 1.

dltasig7 · #38 03/11/15, 10:23 AM

I'm new to HT, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that they don't want political discourse conducted here. Therefore I'll be brief...

I can't see a difference between corporations and corporatism. IMHO it's a "chicken or egg" thing. What I find horrifying is Citizens United and it's legitimization of an oligarchy, finally giving the over class the legal right to buy and sell everything. (If that statement doesn't put me in Bernie's corner in your eyes, I don't know what will.)

Being from Rochester, NY, Kodak's global HQ, people thought me insane when they'd hear me say things like "Kodak is such a huge polluter, they should be fined into bankruptcy or ordered to stop manufacturing the goods/services whose by-products are ruining our environment" (which would essentially put them out of business anyway.) This was because momma-Kodak employed 65,000 people during it's peak when I was school age, and now employ less than 2,000. A few thousand Kodakers (as we called them) took early retirement/buy-outs, but the rest were simply laid off. They are pretty much all back to work elsewhere. We have also seen massive reductions in our workforce from the former #2 and #3 employers too (Bausch & Lomb and Xerox), but are still kicking. If you had told ANYONE in 1980 that these three employers would be among the smallest employers by 2010, they'd have had you committed.

My point is that the death of a corporation or entire industry (fossil fuels for example), etc. will not mean the end of the human race; and the idea that we HAVE TO continue to see just how much our planet can take because "where will these poor people work?" is ridiculous to me.

Socialism certainly isn't the answer, but maybe a "kinder, gentler" capitalism is?

**highlands** · #39 03/11/15, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravytrain

I didn't think Vermonters would take kindly to a carpetbagger...but Bernie is from Brooklyn, so maybe I'd have a shot?

Depends on how long they are here before they try and run. I've seen people come into the state and try and boss around right fast. They get called flatlanders and sent packing. On the other hand, our ex-governor and a very good governor and very long term governor Dean was also from out of state. Difference is he eased in very slowly over decades. When out of staters come in and make a ruckus, trying to take over fast they lose fast. The smart ones get to know people and become part of the state first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravytrain

If there is a race that doesn't have a viable candidate, then I refuse to pull the lever for that race.

I still vote. I vote for the candidate that is the best choice, or in a few cases I write in a candidate. In Vermont you can write in from the other party too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravytrain

I'm a free enterprise/free market, personal responsibility/personal reward kind of guy.

Same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravytrain

Will you be my campaign manager?

Nope. Busy farming.

-Walter

dltasig7 · #40 07/23/15, 02:49 PM

OK folks...We just returned from a 7 day vacation in what we now refer to as paradise.

We entered VT in Burlington, drove across the state to Stillwater State Park in the Groton State Forest (on Lake Groton), and stayed in a lean-to.

During our stay, we had only one "tourist-y" day, which included the Magic Hat Brewery (Burlington), The Cabot Creamery (Cabot), and Ben and Jerry's (Waterbury).

While driving around the state, we drove through numerous towns, and purposely got out of the car in almost every one to randomly go into store(s). Some that come to mind are Cabot, Marshfield, Plainfield, Groton, Barre, Shelburne, Montpelier, Waterbury, Richmond, Williston, etc. - "big" city, big towns, and little towns. We made conversation at many, asked a lot of questions, made our home state known and asked all about moving. The reactions?...ALL good, encouraging, optimistic but above all FRIENDLY! It appears that Vermonters (even those born there or multi-generation descendants of settlers) have no qualms over "Flatlanders," don't really like the term, and don't like fellow VT'ers that do!

Some of Our First Impressions:

1) The people are very friendly (not just the merchants who wanted our business) and helpful.

2) Gas is cheaper, food is the same or cheaper, alcohol/tobacco is the same, the country/general stores prices are like big grocery chains and not convenience stores, restaurants are reasonable outside big areas. Burlington, etc. are more expensive except or gasoline.

3) Larger businesses/employers are far more "Green" than in NY.

4) Drivers are courteous and forgiving.

5) The scenery is GORGEOUS! (This coming from people who love the Adirondacks and the Thousand Islands!)

6) The State Parks are AWESOME!!! (clean, cheap, friendly, quiet, and well maintained.)

7) The air seems cleaner and the waters definitely are.

8) The roads, bridges, highways, etc. are better maintained and there are NO tolls!

9) Gun Laws are GREAT!

10) Farm Market produce looks better.

11) Seems like 50% of homes have some livestock.