As to small farms and chickens

I follow the writings of a very wise old lawyer/farmer, Perry Mann, who firmly believes we will soon see a shift in wealth from the cities to the land holders that produce food, small and large. Set yourself up properly and you will benefit in the long run. In the mean time, enjoy the wonderful produce you are growing on your own.

IF an old man and woman can keep up with 1000 chickens, why cant young men and women, especially with close hydrants for water, and newer ideas on hauling or delivering feed that they have nowadays.

like a great many other things....FBB.........lotta folks now don't have the want too....or the gumption to work..........besides laws that keep folks held back...........just like hogs if the law ain't changed I can have around 250 without being bothered......at the moment

I probably should read the whole thread before replying.....

1 Not that many people want to work that hard. There is a reason small farms went away, the kids couldn't wait to go to town fast enough....

2. Manure and dead critters - looking at your numbers you are making a whole lot of manure more than 5 acres could absorb - as well as more feed than 5 acres could produce. Doesn't pencil out for me?

3. In my rural big farming county, we need permits for as few as 10 head of livestock. Because part of my livestock is within 300 feet of a county drainage ditch I need a special 4 year permit extra above the normal permit for very few cattle. So you will run into govt with this. It's what people want, regulation on ya.

4. Folks complain about the big hog operations a little. Around here my county is the 4th highest pig numbers in the state. Nearly all are 1000 hog barns these days, with 4-5 of those barns on a site. The truth is, they don't smell all that bad, they are engineered pretty good. I remember back in the day on the bus route in school, traveling an hour down gravel roads, every 4th farm stunk bad with 30-40 hogs, brought tears to your eyes, but it was just 'normal' back then. We will not return to that, no way, no how. The McMansion folks won't allow that!

5. I'm not against you at all Bill, sounds like a nice idea really. If you adjust your nipumbers, you got too many livestock on too few acres. But anyhow, we are where we are for a reason, I don't see it happening much. But I'm not against it.

Paul

Can't be too far away tho, in New York don't they regulate how big your soft drink can be? Might cinnamon rolls be far behind?

Paul

Thank you Wendy.

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Actually post #7 was Farmer Dale, not Farm Boy Bill.

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I can't believe I deleted it!

Ill address the individual arguments best I can

(Back in the old days, kids couldn't wait to get off the farm and into the big cities fast enough)
Well, back in the old days, Grandpa and dad were born raised and died on the farm. They didn't have a DIRECT link to what city living was like, OR working for the man. Today, Grandpa, and dad have been born raised and maybe died in the city, and they have DIRECT experience in working their life away for someone else, and not having much when they left this mortal coil. Their able to tell the kids to do something else if you can. Get a higher education so you don't have to live and work like me and your grandpa did.
For those not able or willing to go the higher education route, who might have a desire to come back to the land, such as im guessing 1/2 on here have done, then starting a farm can be a viable option.

(Theres no place that can handle individual farmers eggs, meat and veggies.)

I helped start a farmers market in the county seat town of Creek Co Okla. Course, there wasn't nothing to it, the city providing a lot, and we providing the rules and regulation for setup/ The city provided whatever seed money we needed.
BUT It was the Sapulpa Chamber of Commerce who wanted to see it started. My point being, If Farmers could get together, and show CoCs that they had or could produce a product that would add employment to their cities in various ways, they would be the beginning of getting a receiving point for these things. In this, it just was a way for the chamber to get people to come downtown again and shop.

Wathena Kans started the Wathena Apple Growers Assn cause hauling apples 5 to 10 miles to St Joe Mo was too much of a trip for the apples to last in good shape in, OR setting by the railroad tracks waiting for a train to drop off cars, waiting for buyers to show up to buy and load the cars was too insecure. Also, they, individually, had to take what the buyers offered. As a collective agent, banding together, they hired a permanent seller for them, they built a building by the tracks, they hired me and my dad, at least if not grandpa in his day to help work for them amongst around a good dozen others to store, load, sort and grade incoming apples from their members. They made much more money than by selling individually, and I never knew of a farmer to leave them once he had joined. Before the growth of the apple industry in Wathena, Grapes had been big, but to my knowledge, they never organized. I can remember, in the late 50s, in a lot where the bank sits now, was a large open air shed filled with grapes from farmers with their pks parked alongside. I assume they waited for buyers from St Joe to show up and pick and choose the grapes they wanted, and pay what they wanted. I think the success of the WAGA convinced grape growers to do away with the grapes and go with apples, cause by then, it was hard to find a grape field, tho I knew of at least one 10 acre thereabouts field outside of Troy Kans.

Saint Joe Mo, in my day had 5 meat packing planrts. Swifts, Armours, Sietz, Dugdale, and toward the end Hormel.
They didn't all bounce into St Joe at one time. Likely the Granges around St Joe, both in Mo and in Kan, Iowa and Neb argued for A packing plant to establish there. That was Armours. With the opening of that plant and good railroad access to St Joe, People from who knows how many miles away shipped their livestock by rail to St Joe and Armours. Well, Other Meat packers saw that they could also get in on the Bonanza, and so in their turn and time they located packing plants there also. It became St Joes biggest industry, hiring thousands of people at a time.
Likely, the St Joe CoC persuaded monied interests there to provide land, and some tax relief, ect to entice Armours to locate there, if not the others.

MY POINT< AFTER ALL, IS, It can be done, IF enough people want it done.

Now I'm confused. Initially, you seemed to indicate people should consider intensive farming and now I think you're suggesting a growers co-op. Is this two different suggestions? In either case, folks will still need to meet certain regulations and health standards.

Im not suggesting intensive farming as I understand it. Which is like the feed stores/farm/egg farm I bought my chickens from.
Im suggesting that IF people who cared to, intensified in one major area, with maybe another or so if they found the time and wanted to do that for extra money.

I guess I could be suggesting a growers co op, and also CSAs,

In Okla, I can grow as many chicken s as my state approved chicken house will carry with no other regulations, health or otherwise. My chicken house isn't any longer approved.
I could grow as many acres of vegetables as I choose

I can put as many cows as I want UNTIL the neighbors call me in about it. AND same with hogs.

As to the manure question. MANY farmers would buy manure out here IF it wasn't so far away. Yes, gas is cheaper now, and likely many will buy from the S Mo and Ark chicken farms. BUT, until now, the high cost of trucking it here made it too expensive
Likely, the mega farmers around all these small farmers would continue to produce corn /grain crops and hay, and IF manure was close at hand, they would likely utilize it. Granular fert is HIGH. The egg farm spreads theres now. They used to sell it, but, quit that. Its much cheaper to spread it on the land than to go 30 miles to haul and buy granular fertilizer.

Like they function now, lol?

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What does it take for you to get your chicken facility inspected? If you sell the eggs commercially through a co-op, I believe they have to be graded and candled, etc in order to meet federal or state food requirements. Refrigeration would likely be an important issue.

I'm not saying it can't be done but I am saying I have done it and it's just not as easy as getting up one morning and deciding to do something like this. Raising it is the easy part but meeting food safety regulations is a challenge.

Book: Everything I want to do is illegal.
http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Wan.../dp/0963810952

"Drawing upon 40 years' experience as an ecological farmer and marketer, Joel Salatin explains with humor and passion why Americans do not have the freedom to choose the food they purchase and eat. From child labor regulations to food inspection, bureaucrats provide themselves sole discretion over what food is available in the local marketplace. Their system favors industrial, global corporate food systems and discourages community-based food commerce, resulting in homogenized selection, mediocre quality, and exposure to non-organic farming practices. Salatin's expert insight explains why local food is expensive and difficult to find and will illuminate for the reader a deeper understanding of the industrial food complex."

I have the paperwork here that I guess initially begins the process. I had it done 30yrs ago and it passed. 2 guys came out and looked at it and oked it. I could then buy a roll of kinda stamps to put on every doz eggs I sold that showed that the house where they laid and had come from had been inspected. I doubt if it will pass now, as I havnt changed anything in all that time. As im moving im not going to do anything with it. The sale I go to says I can sell them. IF that turns out to be true, ill do so till either someone says I cant, OR they don't bring enough at the sale, OR I move. IF they don't bring enough, then ill sell the chickens.

Regulations have changed significantly in 30 years but most of the information is easy to find if someone wants to get started.

Not having any running water, or actually water on your place is going to make a HUGE difference now as to 30 year ago.

Well, im moving from here, and wherever I move to, WILL have water, so that kinda makes that topic mute

................You need to get that old flatbed of yours running and stop letting it rust away to nothing ! IF , you get it running with current registration , at some point someone is going to pay you a pretty good premium and drive it home . , fordy

I intend to sell it this spring. That will help with buying a place down payment if I cant find a HUD place. Im selling it, my 1950 Cub Farmall Demonstrator, and my 1935 Standard Twin Garden Tractor.