The Great Debate

If you had healthy soil you would have healthy plants and no need of the 'cides. I do no use them and have no problems while the neighbors are plagued. Personally I love my poison organic methods.

No pictures?

If you live in a region that has lots of Commercial vegetable gardens that fight Colorado Potato beetle with insecticides, you might have less of a problem because others have killed the bug for you. Sort of like vaccinations. If everyone in your town gets a flu vaccination, you are safe to go without getting your shot.

Conversely, if you harbor harmful plant disease and damaging insects on your small holding, Commercial Orchards nearby will need to use more chemicals to fight the outbreaks caused by the overwintering pests you protect.

Wade, there are pesticides that persist in the environment and can be found in compost a year later. It is not glyphosate and is not in any way connected to GMO.

A person can be against persistent pesticides. A person can be against fungicides used to treat seeds at planting time. A person can be against corn seeds modified to resist corn borer. A person can be against corn seeds modified to resist the herbicide glyphosate. You can be against all these things. But when you start mixing them up into the same discussion, everyone ends up confused.

Bees don't pollenate corn. Bees pollenate fruits. Glyphosate isn't used on fruit trees. There are no GMO fruits.

Glyphosate is absorbed through the foliage. It's in everything sprayed by roundup. Since a strain of GM crops (yes, we know there are more than one) are resistant to roundup, what do you think most farmers choose to keep the weeds down on hundreds of acres of crop? The increased use of herbicides is directly related to the use of Glyphosate resistant crop. I left a link in my first post about a junior in high school who found that Glyphosate does increase bee mortality. In this study, it is found to cause a four fold increase in birth defects, which ironically, is the same increase in bee mortality rates.

Since Monsanto does it's own studies, and has ulterior motives other than people's health, I have a moral obligation to reject any study conducted or linked with the same company trying to sell the product in question. 3rd party sources seem to confirm most people's suspicions yet are constantly "debunked" by corporations and general consensus rather than actual scientific study.... 2+2=4 no matter how many people argue it's 5.

Www.siegers.com

The Obsession II sweet corn is great, but I'm sure too long for your growing season. Works exactly as advertised, haven't had a corn borer or had to spray for them since I started growing it. Which kinda runs contrary to the whole "GMOs mean more chemicals used" fallacy.

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The internet - fueling paranoia and misinformation since 1873.

I'd never eat vegetables made by GM or Oldsmobile. I did have to replace a spider made by GM once.

The Catholic Church had a different idea. It reclassified puffins as fish so that they could be eaten on Fridays.

I'm not going to post my comments on yet another Trolling type of thread, I thought these would end after Pretty Paisley was banned.

i kind of thought "troll", too.
When an OP with single-digit post-count poses a question like "Which one do you believe in, Christianity or trigonometry?" and then doesn't post back, you gotta suspect.

Paisley got banned? I was thinking about her literally 5 minutes ago, wondering why I hadn't seen any posts from her in a while. There you go.

Heirloom when ever we can, do have some seed that goes back to my great grandmother and we also buy heirloom seed. and spray as needed.

There are thousands of studies done by private companies as well as foreign governments and none of them have a problem with gmo.
http://www.geneticliteracyproject.or...ct-in-science/

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Deja Moo; The feeling I've heard this bull before.

Technically, there are very few vegetables that are gmo. Mostly it is grains that go to livestock feed or export.

I'm glad we live in a world where we can have both. It doesn't need to be only one way or another.

So I vote for both.

Myself, I find gmo crops use less harsh chemicals than conventional crops use. So I appreciate the safety that gmo crops provide for me, the farmer. The gmo insect controls mean I don't have to handle harsh insecticides. And the roundup ready weed control or Liberty link weed control means I use less chemicals, and less harsh ones, for weed control.

Conventional crops are very safe for the livestock and food processing, but a farmer like me has to handle a bit more types and harsh weed and insect control chemicals.

Organic seems to be people talking out of both sides of their face, I just can't really embrace it. Heck, my garden is vertically organic, but just because it happens to be a good patch of dirt and a hoe is about as easy as trying to do much spraying in a row by row deal. But folks selling organic get so wound up and out of touch,mi just can't follow the buzz words and slander. Good for your own use, but seems to corrupt people who get into selling the stuff. And really is hard on the environment, erosion and picking the good land only, lower yields in tough times and using up nutrients from other land to build yours. I find the claims of organic sellers to be an odd collection of fables and illogic and misinformation. I see prime examples of it in this thread. It seems organic sellers need to use fear to sell their products, and that is what saddens me about their corporate world. I think about turning a field or two into organic sales on my far PM every few years, but finding a buyer is challenging, I'd have to haul my grain much farther to the special markets, and ia really just struggle with the negativity and fear mon gearing of much of the organic crowd.

An organic garden is a wonderful hobby for the back yard, but a poor way to feed a nation, I guess is how I view it.

This is my view, based on several decades of running a small family farm, attending seminars and meetings on all types of farming, growing up farming vertically organicly because dad was too cheap to buy fertilizer or herbicides, I resisted planting the gmo beans for a decade until I understood them better, I liked cultivating corn but now I see how badly it damaged my type of soils, and on and on. Dad grew 9000 bu of grain on this farm in his day, mostly organic back then. I grow about 22,000 bu on the same farm, same variaty of crops, with my soil testing better and healthier and richer than it used to be with some herbicide, some fertilizer, less tillage.

This is my life, farming is what I love, I want my farm better next year than it was last year, I want a new generation to care for it and progress with it as I have. I think gmo is helping make it safer and healthier. Along with cover crops, and rotating crops, and manure when I can get it, and a thousand other things I want to improve and work on.

But, clearly, for your own use, do it how you want, its up to you. Glad we have choices, want it to stay that way.

Paul

This has nothing to do with gmo crops, it has nothing to do with roundup. That is wild eyed folk getting the story all mixed up and trying to frighten people.

At times in different areas bees die off, and no one has figured out why.

One theory is that many commercial seeds are now coated with insecticide - last 50+ years or so.

It has never bothered bees because we put the seed in the ground and cover it up - zero exposure for the bees.

But the last decade our planters have changed. The big new ones use air to move the seed from a big bin on the tractor out to the different rows. There the air vents to the atmosphere, while the seed drops to the seed slot in the ground.

The theory is, the dust that knocks off the seed as it is moved around and blown through the planter gets vented out into the atmosphere and blows around and is picked up by bees.

This is one of many many things they are looking at to try to figure it out.

So far real science can't make this theory work. Bees are dying in areas that do not use any treated seed. Other areas that use a lot of treated seed has almost no bee die offs. The evidence does not support this theory.

They are still studying it tho, see if there is any connection at all.

Again, this has nothing to do with gmo or roundup. If there would be a connection, then we need to stop using the air setup with the treated seed. Treating the seed wouldn't be so bad, if we go back to non-air setups.

Paul

It's not an "either/or" thing. I believe that the OP may have confused definitions of the terms he's using.

Sure - you can buy "organic" seed. I see no need - if that's the only way I can get a variety I want, I'll pay the extra dough, but don't see the point. After all, you don't eat seed, so what difference does it make how it's grown?

As to "GMO" veggies - like others have said - there are no GMO garden veggies. Are you instead talking heirloom or open-pollinated (two different things!) vs. hybrid? Again, check the definitions. Some hybrids are "heirlooms" in that my Grandpa grew them 75 years ago, and I still grow them today. Some consider only "open pollinated" as heirloom. You have to watch the variety descriptions if you are "religious" about that - because "heirloom" is NOT a scientific term - it's a marketing label. Open pollinated are nice if you want to save seed, because they breed true as long as you aren't growing another similar variety that will cross-breed. With a lot of garden veggies, I don't save the seed if the variety is commonly available. I save seed from one variety of squash and one variety of tomato right now, because I often can't buy it anywhere (even online) . But that's it.

I don't sweat that "label" baloney. I try varieties I hear or read about (some brand new ones every year) whether they are open-pollinated or hybrid. Hybrids are often a VERY good thing when you grow in a difficult climate (Zone 3). Hardier, better production, shorter season, more disease resistant. In other words, I grow the varieties that my experience have proven work in my garden, and keep looking for something better. That's the gardener's mission in life!

This whole "organic"/"GMO"/Heirloom issue is too much like a religion to a lot of people with no logic or science behind it. If you are depending on your garden for food, it pays to be a little more pragmatic and open minded.

Most are just articles of opinion linking someone else's experiment. It took me a couple of tries to find a working link as most of them are hosted via doi.org. However once I began to see that it's really not 2,000 studies but more like 2,000 opinions referencing studies I did a quick google search on the most recent links (or lack thereof) to cancer and GMO. Apparently Environmental Sciences Europe republished Seralini's study. If you read through, he references Glyphosate multiple times while feeding them BT corn. 5 fold increase in liver necrosis and 3 fold increase in mortality over 2 years. The problem with the Seralini affair is it was sold as BT causing the cancer, when it was actually Glyphosate.

If you are going to engineer a plant, might as well engineer it to be resistant to your number one selling civilian product. It's not about feeding the world, it's about money. The GMO plant in itself is harmless. How it's grown and used is not.

Politically I'm non GMO...I just don't like messing with Nature or the things I've researched about it all. I do my best to have chemical free and heirloom (or organic seed or starts) and enjoy and feel good about it. BUT...We can't grow 100% of our fruit and vegies. That being said, whatever we get when we eat out(once a month) or buy from the store(salad vegies and broccoli in the winter) "is what it is". I'm not always willing to buy organic,due to prices, but do for lettuce and celery that are such a high % water. I accept too,that anything processed we buy might have Possibly unhealthy traces of this and that in it. For health and aging I just do my best! The fact is that I don't know What was in our soil from those here before us Either, but I suspect it's not good since a bulldozed burned house is under us. I have relatively "clean" raised beds but the fruit and nut trees just had a "clean" starter hole with good additives and Then the roots go into whatever is down there. That's OK.
I'll just always do my best with what we have or can afford to keep us as healthy as I can.

I'm Anti-GMO because of the way it abuses the patent law.

As a example,
I plant Bloody butcher.
You my neighbor plant Monsanto GMO.
Your Monsanto Cross pollinates my heritage seed, that GG GranDad had originally started with.
Monsanto's goon squad pulls me into court and ruins me.
When in Fact it was my neighbor, that ruined a generations old open pollinated variety.
Who do I sue?
With what do I sue with?
Do you see the quandary?
I can't very well go toe to toe with Monsanto...
I could possibly sue the neighbor.
Not sure where that would go though...

GMO as it sits is a bad thing.
And I'm only speaking of the legality's and abuse of the system.
I kind of have some Ideas on how to address it but they are a little mucky at this point.

I have a few things to check out on this thread. After checking it will be deleted or reopened.

Angie..

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"Live your life, and forget your age." Norman Vincent Peale

I can understand this.

I don't agree a living being should be patented as well.

Not that anyone asks me or cares - well, you know, you weren't consulted either.

Going to get more interesting and thorny when gmo animals come out.

Paul

Paul

I don't take issue with a patent being issued for someones hard work in developing something.

Disney back in the 80's got copyright laws changed and ever since corporate America has abused the system.

the Intent of the Law was to protect Intellectual property and allow the creator to have a protected period to profit from the work.
Though once over the work became public domain and open for any one who wanted to use it.
As its treated now there is no drive to create.

Though to hold other to honor your patent, I would think you must be able to control it, I am thinking about introducing a ordinance at county level to prohibit GMO's.

I also need to contact some state official as well about creating GMO free zones for the Preservation of heirloom and open pollinated species.

I would think it would be possible to file a class action against monsanto as well,the lawyers would be payed by the action,they normally take the lions share any way.
The premiss being I have a animal and I let it loose, I am due for any damages it causes... why not a plant?

They need a slap to the head.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...gmo-foods.aspx
I found this link helpful. 85% of gmo plants are glyphosphate resistant(round-up). Glyphosphates have been shown to make minerals unavailable in the food it is used on.
Bees lacking minerals become disoriented and die. Anyone else noticed bees doing the spinout thing?
I posted earlier about a friend who got a bushel of sweet corn form a friend. Her cows, goats and pigs would not eat the shucks(usually scarfed up). In a nosey way she spoke with the grower and he advised her it was his best corn crop ever. "Got that new kind you can spray roundup on, didn't weed one time). When the rats leave the ship........
Something is causing childhood developmental disorders, increased mental problems in the elderly, obesity, increased rates of Parkinson's etc. I have an idea we will find out much more after the fact as was the case with products like DDT.