So I am going to grow wheat organically?

Interesting responses.......

The non-responses are even MORE interesting

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The internet - fueling paranoia and misinformation since 1873.

There are plenty of people on this board that claim they know how to farm organically and usually extremely willing to share.

My point is that I and others who farm conventionally, get hammered on here at times, because we are wrecking the soil. People CONTINUOUSLY state, that if we all were organic, the world could be fed, because it yields the same.

I am simply wondering if any of those same people, who tell us how wrong we are to use fertilizer and herbicides to grow the big crops that make all of our food economical and safe, will come tell us how to farm organically.

They just KNOW we are wrong. They KNOW we are killing the soil. They KNOW our product is unsafe. They KNOW that organic grain yields as high or higher than conventional grain. They KNOW all wheat is sprayed with glyphosate before harvest.

Yet now I ask them how to grow my grain organically, and I hear crickets.

Crickets I tell you.



It is telling is all. I hope they see this as much as I do.

This is true. But I think it may also be true that there are no people on this board who grow organic wheat on a large scale to sell commercially. For that matter, I believe that there are very few, if any, other people on this board besides Dale who grow any wheat or other grains, organic or not, on a very large scale for commercial purposes the way Dale does.

Dale can correct me if I'm wrong but it was my understanding from his first post that he's trying to impress upon the organic crowd that it's next to impossible to realistically do it on a large scale for commercial purposes.

Organic is fine for the small grower who is farming for their own family or the commercial organic grower who is providing on a small scale for their community and nearby local areas. But it's not realistic or practical to attempt to do it in an effort to feed multiple millions of people, especially not with such a high demand staple product like wheat.

The only way the world can go organic is for each and every person to be growing their own food instead of having other farmers growing their food for them. And that just ain't gonna happen - not ever.

First lets not lose the point... That's to make cash.



Do you have a ready market willing to pay double? It certainly sells for double. Organic wheat sells for twice the price from a bit of looking. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-...x.html?go=Home


I did a bit of checking around... 400 acres should net you about 60k (best guess. But use your number.) You will have to find a way to direct market. You want to capture the high price. Fortunately with direct marketing you won't need to produce near so much. At a dollar a pound retail you need to make about 120,000 pounds. (this supposes 30 bushel an acre and that it will cost 50 cent a pound to grow.) You need to plant about 70 acres. This seems reasonable to me. But I'm no grain farmer.

Next your no longer a commodity farmer. You will market a premium product. What is your niche? What will set you apart? Are you especially young and attractive? Works at the farmers markets here in the north east. Maybe you will endeavor to use less inputs... Remember this is about image not truth. Take pictures of your farm and the clear sky's and beautiful fields... Sell the dream.

Direct market to bakeries in the area and work at Internet marketing. A bakery can easily use 3-4 hundred pounds a month. 10 good accounts can be 25-30% of your crop. Now direct sell some on amazon for instance. 50 pound sacks with your picture on it... or a picture that would inspire. A few bags a day will quickly deplete your inventory. Lastly market to health stores, you can likely capture 75-80% of the selling price. A few pounds can sell for 10 dollars if fresh ground.



This is the way growing organic was sold to me. Don't worry about growing it. Worry about selling it at the price you need. Grow less. Sell more. Make more money! Add to the bottom line.

Good luck.

I honestly want someone to respond, though. I do not think it is trolling, when I AM sincere in trying to get some answers. It is a sincere question. I do have a few hundred acres of land that I could certify, and I am toying with the idea of dabbling in organics on some of this land...

I do see how you perceive it though, point taken. Believe me, I thought long and hard before asking, because I can see it being taken wrong. But if people KNOW what a conventional farmer is doing wrong, they must obviously KNOW how it should be done.

I do apologize to those who I did offend. No offense was desired to have been given.

I appreciate your thoughts on this, jtbrandt, thank you.

A little follow up...

Organic NPK costs about double what conventional do. IS NPK a real significant cost when your produce sells for twice the amount? I know for myself fertilizer is about 10% of the cost. So doubling both yields the same 10%. As far as you sprays ect. I just don't know. There are some good organic fungicides available for vegetable crops. Maybe they would work for you as well. Crop rotations and the like will be easy. Your planting a lot less ground.

Before you say it... "Feeding the world" AKA lower production.
Your a farmer, farmings a business get used to it.

Found a fungicide..
http://www.agr.gc.ca/eng/about-us/of...=1376433116809

You will have to start small and build from there. Organic is not sustainable with 1 product, ever. You will need animals to provide manure for fertilizer. Other crops to rotate, crops that return more than they take to build soil fertility. That is how it was done for centuries. Hard work and a good understanding of what plants need and return. I grew 200 acres organic for 12 years on a separate farm before I had to quit farming in 1992. It was a lot more work than the other 1000, a lot of manual labor. Returns were starting to come around but not near as profitable as the conventional farms returns. The organic land was in as good a shape as the regular farm ground, both before and during cropping, there was no soil mining (using more fertility than returned). Here we farmed near the same as far as tillage, plowing and bare ground farming. No no-till or min-till. Everything was planted down before winter for cover. We used a lot of covercrop in the fall, cut for silage and then replanted to row crops and silage corn, some plowed under for organic, depending on last and next crop rotation. Of the 200 acres about 30 would be wheat at any one time, with rotation, wheat could only be planted about every 4th year to keep fertility. Wheat is a fairly heavy feeder of nutrients to maintain a good crop and maintain soil.

As far as growing wheat conventional, we fertilized in the fall through the grain drill as starter fertilizer, 150 lbs 11-52-x-x. Wheat was sprayed, to kill grasses, after planting, (after Oct 15th) before emergence and harrowed in. IF broadleaves were a problem it was sprayed in the spring with 2-4d or such, with rotation broadleaves could be controlled pretty good. Fertilizer was applied in Feb as a dry and again in May as a liquid. Wheat yields could be maintained with fertilizer and heavy applications of lime, for about 7 years and then a 2 year rotation with red clover to improve condition and fertility. At that time we didn't use roundup anywhere on either organic or conventional crops. We did use other sprays (worse in my mind) for fence rows and roadsides on conventional farms. Organic farm was all mowed, as needed, never saw a sprayer. Fuel was 40% more on organic farm/acre cropped. We also had seed costs on top of fuel and higher equipment maintenance cost, for crops plowed under, all moldboard plowed, much more costly/acre than conventional cultivation. A lot of fall plowed land could be S-tine cultivated, only, 2 passes after cutting covercrop for silage.

Crops grown conventional, corn silage, wheat, peppermint, grass seed and legumes as seed and soil building. Organic crops, silage crops of oats and peas, barley and vetch, legume crops for rotation, seed and soil building. Row crop vegetables, sweet corn, green beans, carrots and beets for the cannery. Pumpkins, squash, cucumbers and sugar beets for cannery and seed. Seed wheat and barley for brewers mash. And dill for oil. We pastured cattle and sheep on the crops and used grain and grass seed by-products to feed them along with oats, peas and barley as grain and silage, also used for the pigs we raised. Both conventional and organic.

There is no corn grown here as grain, silage and sweet corn only. No soybeans....James

I see it as pure trolling too.

I do appreciate the point that he is NOT making.

And I will still prefer my food from soil that is amended with bone, blood, manure, ash, rock phosphate, and green sand, and seed that is heirloom.

Its been said that farming conventually is what feeds the world AND makes cash.
Well, now they say theres a glut of corn, soybeans and wheat, so that will make the prices go down, same as weve seen gasoline prices go down due to a surplus currently and for the future on hand.
IF there IS a glut of these grains on the market, wheres the profet in continuing to farm conventually

I appreciate the point that Dale has made. Many people want to criticize conventional farmers, but nobody can offer any useful suggestions on how to "fix" the problems with conventional farming. If you want to put down conventional wheat, then maybe have some idea on how to fix the problem.

I don't see his thread any more "trolling" than I do of the other wheat thread...you know, the one where the OP "asks" questions pretending to want to learn the answer, when in fact she never really cared to hear the answer in the first place because her mind was already made up.

When prices are as they are now something will happen. Inputs are very high, commodity prices low. Now is the time when farmers will be tested. The consumer will control more than ever....BUT....with artificial prices and with farmers having less control, how will the free market be swayed. We will see. Pretty hard to farm organic with no-till where nutrients need to be incorporated more and weeds need to be manipulated without herbicides. It can be done but very costly and/or labor intensive. Is there enough/any profit in it? Are there enough farmers willing or knowledgeable to change the way farming is done?

....James

I was hoping for some responses to this. Always interesting to learn how other people do things you never know where your going to learn some thing.

Interesting that wanting to explore something is trolling , sorta points out the difficulties in defining some terms.

to purchase fertilizer
http://fertilizerbrokerage.com/pelle...en-manure.html


Rates are the same as standard fertilizers. Just have to be sure you have the lab results.

The info isn't all that hard to get.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it isn't trolling because I respect you, but I still think it's inappropriate the way you started the discussion. Maybe I misread the tone, but you don't seem to expect a real answer, since you don't believe there is one. The general impression I get from the thread and a few specific posts (not all yours) in this thread almost sound like mocking those who disagree with you. Either way, it's still a far cry from a homesteading topic by any definition.

Obviously, you're not the first one to try to make a point here and apparently it's acceptable, so I won't interfere anymore. I'm still with you on the underlying issues of organic vs. conventional, just not this thread.

That's hardly "Homesteading". Maybe you got messed up and meant to post this on CommercialAgSteadingToday.com? Maybe start with a fleet of commercial harvesters.

I mean seriously ... I'm good at taking my scraps out to the compost every couple of days, but don't ask me how to operate a landfill.

I get that point.

I have been searching for locally available organic fertilizers, but can not find any. Thanks for your efforts.

Been looking on my local organic producers sites and government sites, but not having a lick of luck...