Government committee to look into aquifer regulation
 

So a water committee is being established by the county to look into regulating water usage by those not on city water. Oh boy, here it goes. Big Ag won't be touched. I bet the oil companies who are using mass amounts of water to frack won't be touched. Poor Joe Schmoe with a few acres is going to get crucified. Government interference at the best!

They're saying in 48 years wells will be coming up dry here. It's unnerving to say the least. Learning permaculture and basing my land management on that I know who is to blame, and it won't be those who get regulated.

I absolutely love this since there is an electronic waste recycler in jail right now and they keep telling me they can't clean up the hazardous waste because they don't have money for it. So they're cool with the water being poisoned but they aren't cool with us using it.

So get involved. Apply to be on the committee. Attend meetings. Do your research. Talk to other like minded people. Organize. Or keep complaining on an Internet forum.

They've already mandated they are not going to have outside people on the committee. They've formed it against the opinions of many. So that's out, though you can bet I'll be at meetings.

As for the rest, bah to you! I've been so active with things that the electronics waste guy is probably in jail because of me. He even sent a private investigator to my house to try to scare me off. Lack of involvement is not an issue here.

This committee was JUST announced. Please allow me a moment to be outraged will ya. I'm already harvesting my own water. That's part of the reason it grates on me so.

welcome to agenda21

I humbly accept my well deserved bah. I'm glad you're involved and wish you well. Too many times people spend time complaining when they should be spending time working towards solutions.

The amounts of water being wasted in ethanol is crazy also. I'm right between the two, oil to the west-ethanol to the east.
20 yrs ago, I would have never thought you could sell a bottle of water in the store.
This water issue is going to come to be a BIG problem in the not so far future.

I am wondering if I will notice anything in my well as a huge hog operation and barn setup was just put up and will have 5800 sows. One barn is 2 football fields long, that is huge. Total acreage under roof when all buildings and barns are combined is close to 5.5 acres ~!
They drilled Two 8 inch wells connected together so if one can't do the job the other one kicks in.
Oh and BTW this barn is little over a 1/4 mile away. LOL

Big Ag, don't bother me at all. I have a 2k cow+ dairy a mile from me. They are one of my customers~they are very good how poop is spread, water usage is little. The water is used for animals to drink.
The fracking, water is being trucked in, the ethanol plant around Eau claire, wi dumps A LOT of fresh water to make ethanol everyday. I don't know the #'s, but its huge.
My town went to 100% chlorination, but I wouldn't blame it on the dairy's just yet.

Crazyfarm,
Good to vent sometimes so go ahead. Elkhound is correct. Good you are doing what you are doing but I wouldn't tell anyone that you are harvesting w@a@t@e@r. They don't like that and could give you some grief, some have even done jail time for doing so. Here is a link to one case and there are others.
http://www.naturalnews.com/036615_or...maculture.html
Keep us posted on any developments.
nosedirt

Read up on state water laws. The western states have a long history of water rights regulation. Many of the big ranches of Wyoming were established by owning only the creek-bottoms; whoever controls the water controls the land.

Can I ask what county you live in?

Crazyfarm, I admire your courage wish I had mine left.
My wife and I have more or less got out of the public
discussions. Or family business has taken a hit over the
last two and we just want to hibernate. Now you have
me venting. The first one had to do with wind tubines
and involved life (what I thought were good) long
community friends. My wife privately did not want them
but she agreed with my stand and it was that the area
farmers have the rights to their use of there property.
I did not and still don't agree the subsidy side. We believe
EVERY biusness should survive on its own.
The second one involved our local small rural high school
and our LEGALLY adopted daughter from the Phillipines
and got very personal and nasty. We even got our State
Rep. to try and fix things.
We are still PROUD to be AMERICANS and still hold our
hands over heart for national anthem (we are the minority
doing this) but we don't believe GOD and our Constitution
gave our government the right to do things the way they
are done now.

Give it time, and I agree with that article, the govt will claim to own the sunlight.
In Germany, if memory serves, citizens there are taxed for having solar panels.

I think at the rate commercial waste is going (I count commercial agriculture and industrial uses) America will be desertified in no time and everyone will be left wondering what happened.

Our government taxes the wind already so I'm sure water will be next. I can modify how I talk about the water harvesting I'm doing and just call it erosion prevention. Who could object to that? Scary world though!

Laramie

I don't want to get political and off track but these are the republicans doing this in my state. The anti-government party regulating private citizens more and more. /sigh I'm not 100% positive but so far everyone named on the committee doesn't live in the country, they're all city folk. I'm sure they want to see us regulated just like they are. How dare we use water for free and freely!

I am curious at what you are really upset about?

The idea of the committee?

Wyoming and your county in particular has a serious water problem. Developers have carved that area into 40 acre lots in areas that just can't be supported properly because of water rights. People move in from other states, that don't understand that their prairie homestead can't be the next garden of Eden with out impacting their neighbors.

In fact Laramie County Wyoming might actually be the first County to restrict new wells for domestic use. That means you can not just subdivide your land and sell it because they won't automatically get a well permit.

I am upset that the regulation isn't likely to go where it needs to go, commercial farmers and industrial uses. That is what they need to look at because that is what is desertifying the landscape. Instead they'll tell me what I can and cannot do with my water while the farmers around us pump the water up and sell it off for fracking or waste it on monoculture crops.

I do know of many areas where wells weren't able to be dug and people have large water tanks instead. So I'm not unaware that our water is limited.

Those farms and industrial uses were there before all those 40 acre lots. Fracking is a problem but a short term one. In reality it is all those new 40 acre lots using far more water then the previous agricultural owners used.

The little guy is the problem in this area. The studies prove it. There is a reason those lands were barren prairie.

So true. and good post PW

I guess it rather depends on your ideology on this one. I believe the way commercial farming is done is killing the soil and preventing rainfall from seeping into the ground and replenishing the ground water supply. I firmly believe that. I believe it has been proven over and over and over again. So the wheat fields surrounding me are doing far more damage to the environment than I am. If it wasn't for chemicals that wheat wouldn't even grow the land is so dead. The way farming is done now is not sustainable and it is responsible for the decline in ground water and the environment as a whole.

As far as how long it's been done, well look at Egypt, Jordan, Israel, etc and tell me that commercial farming isn't going to lead to an expanding desert that will one day be a problem for all of humanity. The fertile crescent, not so fertile anymore.

President Roosevelt saw it during the dust bowl and he sent workers out swaling the land to try to bring it back. Right now I'm watching my county dig up a swale berm so they can use the dirt on the roads. So yeah, I refuse to believe it is me that is the problem. I'll be the one taxed and regulated though.

Of course I realize going into a water meeting and proclaiming farmers the problem isn't going to get me anywhere. I'm strategizing.

All those were a Shift in the Climate, been happening on earth since man. Man did not cause the desert to expand in those areas Climate Shift did. And Still Is as far as that goes as the dunes are expanding etc. Earth never has been a planet that sat still with nothing changing. Climate change brought on by mountains rising causing the rain to be shut off and bingo you have a ever expanding desert. Noting man can do about it, nothing man has done caused it either.
The desert in the northwest is the Mountains ranges shutting off the rain, man sure didn't do it. mountains are still rising all over the world as the earth is in constant Change. As the Continents continue to Shift and Drift.

I think this is a good discussion and I hope we can stay civilized. I would like to ask some questions.

Do you have irrigation rights?

Do you have an irrigation well in addition to your domestic well?

The reason I ask is because a domestic well only gives you rights to water one acre of land.

Actually many people have "stopped" the desert with permaculture land management techniques. You can do a lot with a shovel and some plants to change the world.

Realizing I sound a bit hippy like here, which is kind of funny because I'm pretty darn far from a hippy, but there ya go.

I'm collecting rain water in swales and retention ponds so I shouldn't have to water at all. Mark Shepard calls it STUN farming: Sheer, Total, Utter, Neglect. Then only the plants that can survive drought and disease remain. Of course I did run soaker hoses along my 2 swales this year and I was planning on doing more but STUN makes more sense to me and is a lot more appealing than my current, labor intensive approach. Even with having the hoses I only watered twice this summer. Once when I first planted and once before this snow we just got because I transplanted a bunch of plants to the swale.

So I guess I have no idea what kind of water rights we have with our well. I'm not watering much as I've only planted 32 trees so far and the swales, just amazing! I also did a test of a bunch of bushes in the back of my property, well away from watering ability, planted in holes and mulched. 90% of them lived through the summer and I only watered them at planting. We shall see what winter brings.

Now 2 years ago I dug a duck pond and THAT was water intensive. I haven't filled it up in 2 years though, as the stupid thing never did hold water particularly well. I'm a crappy engineer!

As far as the neighbors, other than tree lines for wind breaking purposes, only one of them has a garden or other plant that needs watering and I can say that with 100% certainty as I've been to all of their houses for one campaign or another many, many times. Only a few of them have livestock as well. Mostly it's just people living out in the middle of nowhere and driving 4-wheelers like they want to die a horrible death.

The one neighbor with trees planted them in the flood plain which is pretty smart if you ask me. We got a massive flood this year because of snow melt. It almost completely flooded out the road and these particular neighbors had it BAD! The trees will do a lot to help them with that in the future! I blame the flood on the wheat fields too. A massive amount of snow was on those fields and it melted very quickly. With nothing to slow the flow and allow it to percolate into the ground it just rushed around. I have a pic, here, of the neighbors property during the flood. Also is a pic of what my land looked like with the swales collecting the water.

Interesting rain water harvesting link for anyone interested. It talks about the states that regulate it:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/environ...arvesting.aspx

So, you have no water rights and you only have a domestic well. You would know if you had an irrigation well because of what you went through to get it.

You are in a flood plain or your neighbor is. Did you know that building swales or any alteration of the land in flood plains exasperates the problem? Did you know that your neighbors could sue you if the work done on your property causes increased flooding on theirs because it changes water flow?

It sounds like you don't have a good handle on what your or your neighbors water rights are and yet you have prejudged the water committee?

You may have a lot to offer the committee but right now, you are the perfect example of why they need to have this committee.

Really? is this a Wyoming law?

Yes. Water, domestic and irrigation is scarce here and there are limits. One domestic well allows water for three single family dwellings and only one acre of land.

Stock watering is another well permit as is irrigation.

I will add. Laramie County is considering not allowing new well permits and I have heard also they might make you put a gallon meter on your well as well. Right now you are allowed 325000.00 gallons per year but they don't measure it. That however might just change because too many people use way to much out of their domestic wells because they don't have a clue about the regulations.

I'm not in a flood plain, they are. The flood plane goes no where near my house but goes directly through their property.

As far as the well, we moved onto established land. We are 2nd owners. The tree line, well, electric, house, barn, etc. were already there. So we didn't do anything to get any well.

As far as the rest, guess there went your effort at civility. :P

I did a screenshot for ya of the flood plane.

Sure was easy to find out.
Domestic and Stock Water Uses
(Ground Water)

The law defines domestic use as household use, including the watering of lawns and gardens for noncommercial family use, where the area to be irrigated does not exceed 1 acre. The quantity of water to be pumped for family or stock use shall not exceed 25 gpm. A well may supply water to more than one, but not more than three, single-family dwellings and still be considered a domestic use provided that:

The yield does not exceed 25 gpm
The total area of lawns and gardens to be watered does not exceed 1 acre
No charge, hidden or otherwise, is levied for the use of the water
The water is not used in conjunction with a commercial endeavor.

And in AZ it is Less Than TWO Acres.

http://library.wrds.uwyo.edu/wrp/90-17/90-17.html

You also have to have permits for flood water detention, stock reservoirs and other water retention or storage if you don't own the water surface rights. You can collect water for domestic use but I am not sure how those surface water rights clash with that.

I might have been a bit blunt but I am being civil. You don''t know the regulations and I don't know if you understand the real implications that go with those regulations. You might not be in a flood plain but what you might do with your property still might cause problems for those in the flood plain.

I'm not sure what to say to you. I didn't know anything about oil and gas and did not even know I had my mineral rights until we got served with the lawsuit over them. I learned real quick then. I didn't know anything about electronics waste and how to recycle it until we had one move in. I learned very quickly. I had no idea water was going to be an issue (as they just had a meeting saying there was enough water to last 100 years at current use) but I will learn really fast about that now as well.

Your concern for my neighbors is nice but unneeded. The only slope to my property is away, to the wheat fields. I'm not altering that flood plain at all.

You don't have to say anything to me. I contributed to this thread because I thought that you were unfairly tarnishing certain water users in our State when I could tell that you really did not have a good grasp on what the real problem is.

You are right, I did not know that was an issue. The county does own the Archer complex and grounds and they've been parceling it out into 40 acre estates for the last 5 years. You'd think if it were a real problem they wouldn't be doing that.

Correct me if I am wrong but those are 40 acre industrial lots not residential. Not really subdivided land where out of State buyers are going to come in and think they can have a farm and raise a bunch of animals on a domestic well.

They are building houses. It's the "Archer Estates" now. Lots of houses have gone up there just this year. A few barns. Seen a few horses moving in. I drive past it every day.

They can't actually deny those kind of subdivisions right now because of water. They are working towards trying or placing restrictions about water. That is the kind of thing that committee will be working on.

They have to balance the wants and needs of all water users and find some kind of solution that ensures water for future generations of families and farmers.

Laramie County is kind of at the forefront of this in Wyoming because of what is happening. Lots of scrub land sold off as "ranches" to people that have not lived with the water realities. It is happening all over the state and what happens in Laramie County may become the blueprint for the rest of the state.

It is a very important topic and the whole State will be watching.