So confused about pasture

I was under the impression we were talking about commercial fertilizer, which has more than potash and phosphate in it.

Nitrogen is made utilizing natural gas. Many homes are heated using natural gas. I wonder how many folks who shun nitrogen fertilizers, shun warm houses? lol!

Seriously, natural gas, methane, and a catalyst are used to capture some of the 80 odd % of the n in the air we breathe, and make it into available form. Here is a blurb on how much gas is used to provide how much nitrogen fertilizer. And pay close attention to what this process has meant for food production, and what it has done to spare the environment from further harm.

The Haber process now produces 500 million short tons (454 million tonnes) of nitrogen fertilizer per year, mostly in the form of anhydrous ammonia, ammonium nitrate, and urea. 3–5% of the world's natural gas production is consumed in the Haber process (~1–2% of the world's annual energy supply). In combination with pesticides, these fertilizers have quadrupled the productivity of agricultural land:
With average crop yields remaining at the 1900 level the crop harvest in the year 2000 would have required nearly four times more land and the cultivated area would have claimed nearly half of all ice-free continents, rather than under 15% of the total land area that is required today.

I mean, what is the negative here? I just do not really get the concern over the production of n fertilizer. The air is 80 plus % n. We capture some of this nitrogen. JUST LIKE A LEGUME does, only way more efficiently.

Herbrick Corp, near Ionia, Mi, provides millions of eggs daily. They are what you would call factory farming.
Give them a call and ask them. I was interested enough to get to the bottom of this rumor. I talked with the owner. I talked to local Veterinarians. In order for them to medicate their hens, it has to be prescribed by a Veterinarian to treat an illness. Those hens would be quarantined and their eggs not marketed while medication remains in their system. Contact the USDA, contact FDA, contact MDARD. Get the facts, stop the rumors.

You elude to knowing how commercial fertilizer is made, but then, in your next post , "I was under the impression we were talking about commercial fertilizer, which has more than potash and phosphate in it." implies that toxic chemicals exist within chemical fertilizers. Yes, absolutely, there is more to commercial fertilizer than potash and phosphate. That would be the nitrogen. Sometimes when needed and desired, sulfur or boron or other natural micro nutrients are added.

I doubt you'll bother to seek out the facts and will continue to believe commercial fertilizer is evil. You are free to think what you want. When I reply, it isn't to argue with you, but to help the OP and others facing these critical decisions in making their farming attempts successful in preserving what they have dominion over.

Which analysis "commercial fertilizer" are you meaning? There are dozens of them. Some have one nutrient, some have four. Some have high n, some low n. Some have sulfur and n, some have just sulfur. Some have potassium, some have no potassium. Some have phosphate, some have copper, some have manganese, some have zinc. All these nutrients and more are NEEDED by all plant life. Where it comes from is of no consequence to the plant or to the soil, all else ( application rate in lbs per acre), being equal.

I personally get various blends made for my soil, based on soil tests done, that will make my crops healthy and strong, and grow well, based on what each crop needs for strong health and superior growth. Healthy cops do not need fungicides. Healthy crops can outgrow pests. This facet, makes good rates of fertilizers, most farmers first line of agronomic defense. Each crop gets its own "blend", because each crop has different needs to produce optimally and build the soil, and maintain healthy soils and ecosystems.

Probably that last statement seems like an oxymoron to those who think commercial fertilizer is the devil incarnate. Yes, commercial fertilizer done right, promotes healthy soil, and healthy plants, and healthy ecosystems. Healthy plants produce organic matter. Organic matter that improves every single positive soil property know to man. Half starving, "organic" crops, like Pretty Paisleys grass, like my very own current hay land I took over from a neglectful neighbor, like many situations where shunning the use of commercial fertilizer, produced much less biomass, and allowed the soil and plant life to suffer.

I think a better understanding is what is needed here, by folks who think they know a whole lot, but unfortunately do not, having been not at the receiving end of the whole, balanced picture. The two sides to every story scenario, if you will. I am not trying to be negative here, but it shows by the lumping "commercial fertilizer" into one big family, as being really, really bad, and having certain nutrients, shows how little a lot of folks truly know. What happens to the nutrients upon entering the soil, being the exact same as what happens when nutrients are added in ANY form, manure, legume, etc., is often lost on people, which is too bad really...

Hope this helps,

Dale

The FACTs are that is it NOT illegal to add antibiotics to chicken feed - which is what you claimed above. The facts are that those hens were given shots of antibiotics before they even hatched. The facts are that there were feed medicated food after they hatched. The medication is stopped before they begin laying to allow for the the required withdraw time. The only rumor here is one that you keep trying to start about it not happening in MI. I have posted several links for you in the past proving this but you chose to ignore them.

I didn't elude to anything, I said I know about the process and I do. I was replying directly to a quote which I included in the reply so people would know what I was talking about. There was not implication in the reply - the quote, however, did imply that manufacturing CF was as innocuous as mining some phosphate.

Funny I don't remember saying it was evil. Perhaps you can point me to that quote? As for not seeking out the facts? I really don't think you are one to talk.

There is an alternative to liming. There is a low input, low cost, slow method that does work.

Our soil started out very acidic. Our land is steep, stony, stumpy, sandy, sloped soil - not conducive to machine work. Area lime companies refused to run their machines on our hills. I don't blame them. I won't take my tractors across them either. Log skidder yes but those are designed to be able to roll and re-right themselves.

The local extension agent suggested that I simply graze animals and hand broadcast behind them. She said that over time the pH would come up and the pasture forage diversity would improve. She was right.

It took longer, about a decade, than if we had done what the lab said of pumping in a lot of fertilizer and lime but we got there. We how have great pastures. The legumes suck nitrogen out of the air. All the plants suck carbon out of the air and build the soil. Now we have thriving clovers, alfalfa, many grasses, chicory, brassicas, millet, etc.

Cheers,

-Walter Jeffries
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/

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So why not plant a legume that doesn't have to heat the air to high temperatures under high pressure, remove the carbon and sulfur, and pollute the air and water around the plant at the same time?

Seriously though - My concerns with the production of ammonia (for fertilizer) are that it is polluting, uses more than 5 times the energy annually as 'warm homes' (just in the US), creates large tanks of a dangerous compound, is long term non-sustainable, and of late has been off-shored to a large extent to countries that contribute to an already uncomfortable geopolitical dance.

In addition, I personally don't think the the fact that without said CF about 1/3 of the current world's population would starve is a good thing - but that would be a whole other long tangled thread.

Again, the quote I was replying to is important context when addressing my reply. And I was lumping all CF into one family due to this not being a thread about the various CF's but on a whole other subject. Since 80% of CF used contains nitrogen and that generally comes from ammonia, it was a reasonable generalization. I did not vilify CF, I was simply trying to help clarify for people - who would keep insisting on the need for CF - that some people do have valid reasons for not using them.

Why do you need to assume I don't know what I am talking about because I don't agree with you on the subject? You have no idea of what I do or have done. I'm not here assuming you are using CF because you are ignorant or evil. I am not assuming you are just looking to destroy the environment for more money. Rather I assume you are trying to raise your family the best way you know how, that you truly care about the patch of land in your keeping and are trying to learn as you go - like we all are. That we just have different takes on the subject due to our different life experiences and views of the world is not a bad thing, why can't we discuss it without the snark? You may remember that I am the one that pointed out that large scale farming was pretty dependent on CF and that I didn't say it should disappear from the earth, but that we we need a better production process.

For clarification I have been to ammonia production plants and know about the business.

We do not use CF on our land and we have no need for them. Our organic methods (not certified, simply for our own peace of mind) have created healthy, productive habitats for our animals. Properly done, organic fertilization typically adds organic matter in the initial process so they tend to have more organic matter from the start rather than having to wait for a planting to grow and produce it. And while well managed CF may not be as harmful to the environment around the land it is used on, that is the exception rather than the rule, sadly.

I did not relate my experiences to PP on how to build up sad (previously conventionally farmed) land, because it involved a cycle that is more of a commercial nature (one starts with planting the field pea of your choice, adds a thousand chickens or so and goes from there to several different critters on a rotational schedule.) and location dependent (we live just on the edge of a fishing village) and I don't have the advice she needs. I apologize for contributing to the derailment of the original question.

You mean you have an alternative to liming with a 5 ton lime spreader pulled by a tractor and that alternative is spreading lime by hand over a period of years. So you followed what the Lab suggested for lime, just in small steps over many years. Right? Good work!

"And while well managed CF may not be as harmful to the environment around the land it is used on, that is the exception rather than the rule, sadly."

Actually the worst problem with CF is homeowners. They create far more fertilizer run off than farmers. Agricultural use of CF is seldom mismanaged. It is far too costly to mismanage. While the small farms lag in technology, most medium and large farms employ the latest satellite telemetry to map crop yields in specific areas in their fields so that CF placement the next year matches the needs of the crop. So don't be sad.

PP....sometimes we(including me) miss the answers we seek...especially when they are in front of us in plain view.


Extreme Composting

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PP > Clearly I need lime. But that goes back to my original question. Do I lime now or later? Should I plant legumes now and then lime when the lime will break down and do the most good in the cooler temps? The article I was reading is what threw me into the confusion ... I was good to go with gobs of lime right now until I read that and talked to my free lard buddy.


There are a couple types of lime. Pell lime is processed and manufactured and likely is not something you would approve of. It is fast acting and will correct problems quickly. But it also gets used up quickly, and needs to be re applied in a year or 2.

Ag lime is something you might approve of. It is mined rock and gets spread on your land, it takes a good 6 months to really break down and start doing anything. So the sooner you apply it, the better. Today, yesterday, whatever, would be good. This type of lime typically lasts 5 years or so, as I said takes time to start doing anything for you, is cheaper, and works for a long time.

There are also waste lime products, some water treatment plants use lime beds to treat their water, and sell the used stuff as lime. Sugar beet processing plants also may have this, and others. Depending on your point of view, you might consider this a very green use of a waste product, making use of something that would otherwise be a waste put in a landfill; or you might think it comes from a business so it must be the most toxic poisonous substance ever created by man and not for you. I really have no idea what anyone thinks on these topics any more, it's all a belief system not any science or actual thought any more.... These types of lime are somewhere in between as to acting a little quicker than ag lime, but not as fast as pell lime.

But if you need lime, apply it. Get it working. Lime is a great big tums tablet for your soil, if your soil needs it, do it! Waiting, or applying not enough over many years is a waste of resources, if you don't feel well do you want to wait or do you want 1/10 of the antacid that would help you feel better? Or do you want the right amount now and get back on your feet and working and feeling well as soon as you can?

I wrote a lot more, but just threw it away. Seems to make no difference anyhow.

Paul

For PP, here is some more good material regarding pasture building techniques from ATTRA. I think it presents a pretty balanced approach that can be done with minimal use of chemical fertilizers or herbicides that is her philosophy. But it does take knowlege and understanding of soils and rotational grazing--of which this publication describes. https://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/sum...ry.php?pub=247

geo

I had to google Milorganite. Urgh. Human sewage, treated and sold. With all the medication residue still intact, I'm sure.

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Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Then I am sure you read this part also.
subsequently dried in twelve rotary driers at temperatures ranging from 900⁰ - 1200⁰F. Any surviving pathogens are killed from the extreme hot temperatures.

The product is sampled thoroughly in our testing process, including over 20 tests per day, which guarantees Milorganite complies with standards for protecting human health and the environment.
If I remember correctly even Mike Rowe did a show on this when he was doing Dirty Jobs.

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Commerical fertilizer does NOT kill birds and bees. You are confusing fertilizer with bug killer. "commercially produced" does NOT mean artificial. It means mass produced.

Lime takes an average of 7 years to break down to the point plants can use it so get started ASAP.

I poisoned our garden by adding too much horse manure. Guessing rather than using tests. Using commercially available fertilizer means adding the exact amounts your soil needs. If you had 2,000 free range chickens that you were collecting the poop from and selling it that would make you a commercial producer of chicken fertilizer. Does the word "commercial" turn chicken poop into poison?

Get smarter and quit listening to the hippie hype that commercial fertilizers are BAD. How does grinding up a rock turn it into poison?

There sure are a diverse assortment of opinions on this topic here aren't there? That's good, its not good to have everyone think exactly the same.

I hope PP got answers to her pasture question - lime is good sooner than later, and enough of it now but you need a soil test to figure out how much is 'enough', and there are several types of lime pick the one that suits your needs, and worked into the soil is better than just spread on top. That is pretty much the lime question in a nutshell.

As to the commentary, I really appreciate that everyone can farm their little patch of ground how they want to, and in no way do I want to tell them what they should be doing.

However, we get into these discussions of what is 'best' or 'right' and I just get puzzled.

I tend to run on logic and science, after strongly considering those then I go on my gut feelings.

If we ever want to be remotely sustainable, we have to be recycling our human manure. I understand the yuckiness and the concerns on other things in that waste stream, but I don't believe you can talk about being sustainable and also not ever allowing human manure to be used for fertilizer - that does not compute.

I also don't believe you can say no to commercial fertilizers, but be importing manure and organic fertilizers from other places and think of yourself as 'sustainable'. I think all of farming/ gardening is one a d the same; we take N, P, K, micronutrients, water and turn it into feed and food. We can either grow crops at top production using the tools around us, or we can grow poor yields per acre and use less fertilizers, but have far less production. One way is not 'good and sustainable' while the other is not. Both ways have issues, and concerns, and things to learn from. But neither is a bad thing in and of itself. I am just totally puzzled by the 'sustainable because we have poor soil that takes decades to rebuild' line of thought. That isn't sustainable any more than regular agriculture. It is just using more land to produce less crops, no other way to view it. Again, I'm not against those ways, but it is wrong and bristles a person to hear it is somehow better or 'sustainable.'

Either way, you add fertility to the ground, and you harvest a crop, one like the other.

Commercial fertilizer is just P or K or N is a small salt solution. Lime is mined rock used exactly like a tums in your tummy. Its not like a person is spreading crude oil on your land, jeez. It takes more fuel to spread manure on land than it takes to get good commercial fertilizer on your land, manure is 2-8% nitrogen, while commercial fertilizer is 28-78% nitrogen, much less stuff to move and haul and run over the land..... It uses some petro chemicals in its manufacture, but its not a puddle of crude, it is the rock or the N from the air that you are getting on your land.

Sometimes the lime or rarely the fertilizer comes from a place that did something else with it first. It is wonderful to recycle these products and reused them. Of course one has to be careful of heavy metals, or other bad things that could pop up in them. For the most part these recycled lime and fert products are well tested, but I and you do need to be careful on that.

Manure and human sludge again, its a great product, much better to use it to make a crop than to put it in a landfill. Of course a person needs to be careful, if there is a lot of heavy metals in your town manufaturing ten it could be contaminated, and raw fresh manure doesn't work well with root crops of course. But man, these are good and valuable and recycling ways of using good products to create more corn, soybeans, alfalfa, and other feed crops for livestock, how can anyone bad mouth these manures as a vital part of our circle of food growing? One needs to be smart and careful, but these are -good- sources of fertilizer, not something to bad mouth. If you are growing carrots then no, I would not use fresh manure or human compost either, but you shouldn't be bad mouthing them as some sort of poison, either. They are a valuable resource for others, and work well as fertilizer.

And I think that is the problem in these threads. We all are worked up into our own back yard and what we want for what we do, tat we can't see the big picture any more.

Can we say commercial fertilizer works for growing good crops, but its not for everyone?

Can we say human waste is much better if we use it for fertilizer on crops that we can, tho of course it can't be used on gardens or truck farms?

Can we say organic ways and slowly building a personal garden is rewarding and fun and a neat way to put food on the table, but its not the best way to produce the food for an entire nation of people and is not really very efficient?

Most farmers have garden and toil on them for more hours than they do on 100s of acres of crop land, because they enjoy it. Organic practices and commercial farming technics interchange and work hand in hand on many farms.

There isn't anything wrong with doing things as PP wants to do. What is wrong is to say those ways are better, or the only way it should be done.

I don't thin, that is true.

To be fair, any time PP (or others) has a question, we jump in on her and try to pull her over to use real fertilizer or what not. That isn't ours to say, she can do things her way on her garden and pasture.

I do hope she can read so e of what we are saying as just giving her different options and the pluses and minuses of those different options.

For example with the lime - your soil is upset with a low ph, and will be sickly until that is corrected. You can live with a sick soil and low production. Or you can fix the problem by picking out a type of lime and the amount your soil needs and use it and make your soil healthy and happy. Or you can do things that take 10-20 years to get your soil healthy, waste your whole productive life trying to get there, have poor yields and be inefficient the whole time....

You can do any of those things you want, your call. But why live with a sick soil, when there are good ways to correct the problem in a few months, and keep the problem corrected for many years, and only have to add small amounts of lime every 5-7 years after that?

Isn't it more efficient, healthier, more sustainable to get your soil healthy with a good ag lime and go from there with a good pasture which makes healthy critters and you can use your time and effort on other things, rather than sit with a sick and poor soil for the next decade?

Logic, science, and then a good dose of making it work for you however you want to get it done. Organic is fine of that's your choice, but you still have sick soil, you need to make it well, and doing so sooner rather than later makes everything else work better.

Paul

No, Haypoint. Not at all. The soil sweetened naturally over time without the need of lime. The lab said spread lime. The extension agent said, don't bother spreading lime instead just have animals graze. She was right. No lime spreading and we still got great soil.

Why do you always have to take such an argumentative stance on things Haypoint and misrepresent and misinterpret what people say? No need for you to be so nasty.

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Aye, I wouldn't touch human sludge from the processing plants with a ten foot pole - or manure from many farms either due to the antibiotics and such they use.

Too many people put chemicals, drugs, paint and other nasty things down their drains and all that ends up in the sludge and then in the resulting fertilizer. Not something I want to spread on my land to grow food. They need to figure out how to get those things out of the sludge path. Leave it for the golf courses. (There's a really good Modern Marvels episode in Season 3 on this that my daughter and I just watched last week on Amazon Prime. Check it out if you're interested.)

I've had people ask to buy our farm's compost. I don't sell it because I need every iota for my own land. With our own compost I know what went into it. I originally got into livestock decades ago because I couldn't find good manure for my gardens. It's gold. Better than gold.

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You wrote, "and hand broadcast behind them. She said that over time the pH would come up".

You didn't say what you were hand broadcasting behind your livestock. It is possible to hand broadcast lime and I couldn't think of anything else that you could broadcast that would significantly change the ph in hundreds of tons of topsoil.

It wasn't my intent to be nasty, I was seeking clarification. So, if not lime, what are you broadcasting on your soil, year after year, that has given you great soil?

Have you had your soil tested, following years of pasturing, surface manuring and broadcasting? Has the ph improved or is the increase in vegetative matter overcome the acidic soil?

PP....go to geoff lawtons website and join...its free and he doesn sell or trade ya email..he just sends updates when he uploads new vids of what he is doing...his farm is amazing....http://www.geofflawton.com/


look up these people.....ben falk....sepp holzer....Masanobu Fukuoka writer of one straw revolution.they have amazing examples of what you are looking for.

for people on steep mtn side sepp holzer is a must see.

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i went to the woods because i wished to live deliberately to front only the essential facts of life,.......,and not,when i came to die,discover that i had not lived...Henry David Thoreau