So confused about pasture

Tall fescue is still a valuable pasture grass. The endophyte infected K-31 type grasses should not be available to mares in their 3rd trimester, and can cause some other issues in beef cattle, but many still use it because it is a really good pasture grass...it's drought tolerant, and can withstand abuse.

BUT, there are novel (aka friendly) endophyte tall fescues now that do NOT cause problems and it is safe for all animals. It is a little more expensive, and slightly harder to get established, but it is a really good forage. Like I said before, Max Q is one of the more common varieties.

Toxic endophyte fescue may not be recommended in some areas, but novel or friendly endophyte fescue is highly recommended.

Here you have to watch what kind of lime you out on. We have high calcium and high magnesium. The magnesium causes the soil to become very tight. You should also have your compost/manure tested for nutrient value. Be aware that the n is very volatile and needs to be worked in to avoid that. Are you planning on haying it or just grading. What about feeding bales in the pasture?

We plant Bar Optima Tall Fescue E34, very long lasting, will not cause endophyte problems with any ruminants etc. Throw it in w/ some clover and it makes a fine cool season pasture. Top dress in early fall to stockpile some over the winter.

A lot of us don't like getting into the cycle of buying chemicals and then having to buy more chemicals and then more.....
We're not all worried about maximum output and bushels per acre.
We're looking to exist with nature rather than tromping all over it.
Like Paisley, I'll leave the chemicals up to those that want them.

The thing is though, this train of thought is an untrue fallacy. You DO NOT need to continue to put more and more on. If you get the grass growing well, by making the soil healthy, by adding the nutrients it needs to promote good growth, here is what occurs:

The soil produces more biomass. More biomass = more grazing days. More grazing days = more manure production, and root growth. More manure production and root growth = more soil organic matter. More soil organic matter = more nutrient release potential, and more water retention potential, and simply put, better soil.

On my long term farmed land, since the advent of no tillage, my nutrient needs from outside sources have gone down, because the soil is rebuilding, and getting better because of more biomass production, due to proper fertilization and feeding of the soil.

As organic matter levels go up, the nutrient supplying capability follows along, drainage gets better, soil life gets more abundant:

Many folks think once you put commercial fertilizers on land, you then are somehow "trapped" and have to put more and more on. This is an urban myth. A Food Inc. phenomenon. A Michael Moore theory.

It is simply not true. The opposite is in fact true, for the above mentioned reasons. For if it were, the same thing would occur with manure use, legume use, etc. Because a nutrient supplied is the same in the soil, no matter where it came from. Some are man made, some are animal made, and some are plant made. That is the ONLY difference.

Finally, I realize we are not all trying to get the most out of every acre. This is not what this is about at all. It is about stimulating good grass growth, in the best way possible. And once the grass is healthy, a new equilibrium occurs, where as the soil improves, it becomes more efficient at releasing nutrients on its own, because it was fed with what it needed to produce more biomass.

I hope this helps to explain how soil health can be stimulated and improved by using ANY form of fertilizer that contributes to better growth.

Cheers,

Dale

i worked on some damaged ground for a local dairy that was so destroyed it wouldnt even grow a pine tree..not even a bull pine....the solution to this was we let it go fallow with anything...first thing to grow was poke berry and a wee bit of fescue..as it fell and decayed over a few years i was able to get young white pines established.

on my place i had a small 1/4 ish meadow that was very poor....it had some fescue and covered in broom straw....i put down....going on memory about 100# of fert and 500 or 700# of lime....it stopped the broomsage and boosted the fescue enough to spread..i let it grow all year and bush hogged it..i have NOT added anything on it since and its been several years.i dont have broomsage in it and i have kept on doing basically what permaculture calls chop and drop....term used my Geoff Lawton and the fescue has increased steadily.i dont have grazing critters other than deer and other wildlife.....i want it to be a field of legumes but theres no way until i build more fertile base its going to grow it.one other option i have been doing is planting vetch..it grows real nice and has mass and deer eat it extra good after first frost.but its super expensive and spreads like wildfire once going so you dont want it near a established garden area.

PP and others i would not plant this but only on the most abused piece of ground...its not for your situation...just elaborating on the damaged ground i talked about above.
http://www.southernstates.com/catalo...vetch-1lb.aspx

__________________
i went to the woods because i wished to live deliberately to front only the essential facts of life,.......,and not,when i came to die,discover that i had not lived...Henry David Thoreau

I do not recall where you live in NC but I remember it is not far from me. You are welcome to visit. PM me if that interest you. This pic was taken this afternoon.....4 April 2014

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Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!

I am guessing here that PP meant non-commercial / man made fertilizer, not really with no chemicals. Everything has chemicals if one wants to get technical.

Some of us, though, do not want to contribute to the petrochemical process involved in manufacturing modern fertilizer. Not only for the oil/coal/gas used in the product itself, but also the large amounts of energy burned in creating it. I have been indirectly involved in the clean up a super fund site not to far from here, it is a fertilizer plant that closed. The waste created (in more ways then one) doesn't go away because it is ignored.

Salt building up in your soil can and does happen for a variety of reasons, and when it does get adequate moisture to dissipate you get run off. Run off is not a part of the natural process and can be bad for the land / water bodies around you.

I do know that for large scale commercial farming it is "necessary" but I also think we need to be working on a better process for the future, and not just go along with "hey it works" because when it stops working there is going to be trouble.

Lime is most likely going to be the best single thing you can do. That broomsage is a pretty good soil test as far as lime is concerned. Five hundred pounds to the acre at least. In our area we have nice organic limestone crushed up to spread on our ground. Then you can kick up actual nutrition with other organic fertilizers. Manure of course really helps in the nitrogen dept. If you have access to quantities of fish.... they can provide bunches of nitrogen as well as other goodies. Sea weed is also a great soil builder.

__________________
"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

Yeah-I figured that spraying the raw milk would be something I have to do on a weekly basis at least. I bought a 4 gallon backpack sprayer just for that task. Now the goat manure I'm not so sure I can do. I can't afford the feed enough goats to come up with 4 tons of poop. I'm just not that gooda woman.

I don't know about the cyclical requirements of "chemical" fertilizers - and I happen to think Michael Moore is a pig. (Why is it when I talk about living in harmony with Mother Nature I get labeled a liberal?? I've never, not. one. time. pulled a democratic lever in my 43 years!!!!) I'm not a liberal! I might have some serious hippy inclinations but heavens ... I'm *NOT* a liberal. But I digress ....

I do know that chemical, manmade, commercial whateveryouwanttocallit fertilizers are petrochemical based and no, I'm not interested. But also - I don't care if chicken litter from the houses up the street break down into lush pastures ... I'm not putting that crap on my land. Heavens knows what those birds were treated with and what they ate and what came out the other end. No thank you! So yeah .... "chemical" or not - it matters to me the source.

Clearly I need lime. But that goes back to my original question. Do I lime now or later? Should I plant legumes now and then lime when the lime will break down and do the most good in the cooler temps? The article I was reading is what threw me into the confusion ... I was good to go with gobs of lime right now until I read that and talked to my free lard buddy.

Thanks for the help. Agmantoo, I'm about 1.5 hour from you. I will definitely take you up on the offer to come see your awesome pasture! I went to visit another HTer last fall that you guided in pasture rotation and learned a lot but I wasn't ready to start rotating like I am now. (and let me know if you've got any cows for sale! )

I was under the impression that potash and phosphate were mined from the ground instead of being man-made.

RE: Lime..... Yes, get it started now. Actually, it is generally recommended to plow it under with a moldboard or chisel plow so the lime can get down to the root zone where it will do more good in a shorter time. But, no matter how you spread it, it will eventually cause the chemical reaction that reduces pH..... (that's a dig, you know...)


As for the legume and fescue planting, you might consider mowing the pasture in question, then dragging a spike tooth harrow--or a spring tooth field cultivator, or a regular disc set to straight, to get some scratching done so you can seed it. Didn't you buy a tractor? If the area isn't too big , say a large lawn size, even a pull-behind lawn dethatcher from a rental place might do the job. Then, get rigged up for irrigation....As the comedian said: "Gitter done!"

Sooner or later you will have to come to grips with the nitrogen question in your homestead plan. Lightning is the only free source of nitrogen--at about ten pounds per acre per year. (Well, maybe a tiny bit from overhead flying bird's poop, or racoons and squirrels and rabbits...) Most crops and grasses need a minimum of a hundred pounds per acre per year. The rest--will have to come from a bag, from the hind end of an animal, or from the nodules of a legume. It's entirely your choice, but you will have to figure out how much nitrogen you will need and how to produce it. If you and your family eat anything, or you sell the animal products that come from your soil, it will need replenishing--that's the law of Nature. It takes both passion and knowlege to be a homesteader...And as the comedian said............

geo

As a part of the educational part I suggested before, please go to the chicken farm down the road and see if they put hormones or antibiotics in their feed. I'm guessing you will find they do not. In Michigan it is illegal to add antibiotics or any other medication. You will learn that there are no added hormones in chicken feed. Perhaps, you can learn that what falls out of the back of those hens isn't so different from what falls out the back of your goats.

While I can understand a mind set that top production is not a goal, please understand that a pasture that is growing lush plant material is subject to far less run off and the resulting erosion. Modern farming methods, no-till, reduces run off and has reduced the loss of topsoil by 300% as compared to conventional farming (plowing, disking, cultivating).

As you learn how whatyouwanttocallit is actually manufactured or mined, you will be able to make choices that suit your ideals.

Elks hit on the head, broomstraw equals need for lime, and if your crafty and it's nice straw.....nice brooms.
Sling it out on your pasture now, and find out if your getting burnt lime or this ground up limestone they use alot now.....it takes 3750 lb to equal 1 ton of burnt lime.

there is a bagged fertilizer called tiger that is labeled organic you might check into.not sure of the expense of it though as i got a few bags when my local mom and pop feed store closed.

__________________
i went to the woods because i wished to live deliberately to front only the essential facts of life,.......,and not,when i came to die,discover that i had not lived...Henry David Thoreau

Both ways........

Don't forget that potash has been made for centuries by pouring water through wood ashes.


Just check Wikipedia.

geo

Its only "organic" if the regulating body says it is.

Like ''milorganite''? Sometimes you need to be careful what you ask for. This is an organic that has been around for some time!

Education is the key, here and with most things. There is far more to decisions than natural vs. manmade. Bt exists in soil nearly everywhere, always has. It is in each and everyone of us. It is permitted as an organic pesticide. I can pour it on my cabbage to kill cabbage worms.
But it is also in some of Monsanto's GMO corn. For some, Bt suddenly becomes a toxic pesticide in Monsanto's corn, responsible for leaky gut in humans, but safe enough to be organic when used on salad ingredients eaten fresh. I see that as a conflict worthy of further education.

When you make choices that effect your family and your animals, educated choices are vital. If you avoid doing what your successful neighbors do, based on false information, you do a disservice to your family and your animals. However, if, after learning that the neighbors are not using antibiotics or hormones on their chickens, then learn that bagged fertilizer isn't killing the bees and butterflies and is the same thing as the stuff in your manure you love, you choose to reject their methods, fine. It is a free world. But when you post here, it is generally an attempt to gain knowledge. What you do with what you learn is, again, up to you.

Seems to me that weeds tolerate poor soils better than the stuff I want to thrive. But if I can fill my soil with an every day Thanksgiving for the desirable grasses and the desirable clovers, weeds will have a harder time taking over.

I know a guy that grew a beautiful field of Medium Red Clover. Just as it was time to make hay, an old-timer suggested he plow it down. Reluctantly, he plowed it under. That action added so much plant material and nitrogen from the roots, that he had record hay crops for many years afterward. If you can afford to plow down thousands of dollars of potential hay or access to many tons of composted manure, with additional organic P and K, your pasture will thank you. If you aren't so lucky, plus want to avoid toxic chemicals, buy a few bags of 16-16-16, your goats will thank you and it will save supplemental feed costs.

That is completely incorrect. It is not illegal in MI. It has been talked about ad nauseum in many places, but currently is still legal and used prophylactically in most industrial agriculture including MI chicken.

And many of us DO know how commercial fertilizer is manufactured and thus have chosen to avoid it's use.