So confused about pasture

BlueRidgeFarms · #**181** 04/17/14, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLFarmMI

Thanks BlueRidgeFarm. There's currently nothing growing in the place I want to make into pasture. We were renting our fields out to a neighbor and he grew corn so there's nothing there right now except for cornstalk stubble. We're gradually taking over our fields little by little so we're starting from nothing in terms of pasture. A soil test is definitely on our list of things to do this year. I've been doing a little research on pasture plants that do ok in MI so I think I know what I want to plant. Now I'm trying to figure out how much to plant because of course each thing seems to have a different seeding rate. It's been a long day and I just can't seem to wrap my brain around the math tonight.

Well, it sounds like you're well on your way then. The seeding rate math is a pain, if you want to PM me I can try to help with that, but a good night's sleep and a fresh start might be the best help you can get.
I would try to get the soil test done soon. That way, if you choose to spread lime or other soil amendments, you can do it before seeding.
Otherwise, I think you're on the right track.

haypoint · #**182** 04/17/14, 10:46 PM

"Ok, I'm off my soapbox now and I'm asking if perhaps we could return to the discussion of how to improve pasture. I'd kind of like to know what my options are because I'm new at all this farming stuff and I need all the ideas and help I can get."

As you already said, what works for one, might not work for you. To get an answer that fits your situation, I'd need to know a lot more about your pasture. Where is it? Annual rainfall? Zone? Soil type? Soil test results? Soil ph?

Then I'd need to know if Monsanto is the Devil or Savior in your mind? What are you pasturing in this land? How many per acre? Do you intend on leaving it pasture for three years or thirty years? Intensive grazing and lots of moveable fencing?

For me, in zone 4, heavy red clay, not cropped in 30 years, I would spread as much manure as I had and could buy from neighbors. Then plow it as soon as it was dry enough to plow. Disc it a few times to get it level. Broadcast 5 or 6 tons of calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate (Lime or Dolomite). When the early grasses and yellow rocket sprout, drag a spike tooth drag over it. After the late season weeds start up and the canary grass tries to take over, I spray a pint per acre of glyphosate per acre. Then in a couple weeks, around Labor Day, I use my drill to plant 80 pounds of Spelt and 8 pounds of timothy and 8 pounds of medium red clover per acre. I use a cultipacker behind the grain drill.

If it gets too dry to plow, I rototill, but that takes a lot of horsepower and goes slow.

Then I fight the Sand hill cranes from pulling out the sprouted grain, followed by the migrating Canada Geese that fill up on the green sprouts. Next the Whitetail deer herd up on the field.

The following year, I walk the field and pull weeds before they go to seed. I use a shovel on thistles and amaranth, to get the roots.

I harvest the Spelt with an antique 1953 hand crank start, Self propelled combine that has a Scour Clean that catches weeds seeds before it goes into the grain bin. I rake and bale the straw. The following year, I have a lush pasture or hay field.

If I wanted, I could burn the dead grass from a field in early spring. When it starts greening up real good, spray it with a bit of glyphosate and broadcast 100 pounds of 0-0-60 commercial fertilizer and when the soil is wet, run my grain drill over it with the cultipacker on behind. I'd plant 15 pounds of clover, timothy mix. Each year that I pasture it, I broadcast a couple tons of lime. A couple times a year, I'd walk the field and pull or spray weed infestations.

rambler · #**183** 04/17/14, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLFarmMI

we could return to the discussion of how to improve pasture. I'd kind of like to know what my options are because I'm new at all this farming stuff and I need all the ideas and help I can get.

One thing is, there is a corn herbicide that kills grass weeds, and it persists in the ground long enough if used last year, it could affect your hay seeds this spring yet. It is not nearly as common as it once was so probably nothing to worry about, but would be good to know if they used atrazine on the corn last year......

Otherwise, pick a few species of plants, local seed seller likely has a good mix, and put them in. Most of those seeds are very tiny, they like to be only 1/4 inch deep in firm soil and want a good cool damp spell to start growing, so plant early. Or wait until early fall.

A legume - alfalfa, clover, birds foot trefoil, etc. are good in the mix to add N to your field.

As you add more different seeds to the mix, you cut back on the amounts. You don't want to get too carried away with many different kinds, usually.

Paul

**highlands** · #**184** 04/18/14, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDKatie

Family owned doesn't really mean anything. A family owned chicken farm makes hardly any decisions about how their birds are raised. Oh wait, they're not the family's birds, they're the integrator's birds. There's a family owned dairy down the road that milks over a thousand cows. When people think "family owned farm", I bet most think small farms with animals on pasture, etc. Family owned is like sustainable or natural....there's no real definition.

Which is why it's important to know your farmer, beyond just the terms on the label.

For farmers, reach out and let people know what you do. My way of doing that is my blog. It describes our family, our land, our livestock, what they eat, how they live, our ways of doing things and very clearly states what things mean such as sustainable, family owned and operated, etc.

This education thing goes both ways. Farmers need to educate the consumers and consumers need to educate themselves.

SLFarmMI · #**185** 04/18/14, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

Where is it? Annual rainfall? Zone? Soil type? Soil test results? Soil ph?

Northern Monroe Co, MI. Annual rainfall is about 35 inches. Very wet in the spring. Plan on eventually tiling the fields if we can ever afford to. Most folks around us have tiled fields. Zone -- we straddle 5b and 6a if I recall correctly. We have that oh, so lovely Michigan blue clay. Haven't done a soil test on the area we want to make pasture yet but we did on the area we have the garden and the P and K were ok but needed N. Don't recall the ph because the test results are down at the farm.

Then I'd need to know if Monsanto is the Devil or Savior in your mind? What are you pasturing in this land? How many per acre? Do you intend on leaving it pasture for three years or thirty years? Intensive grazing and lots of moveable fencing?

Monsanto is neither the Devil nor the Savior in my mind. Just a company. Not planning on many animals since it will be just the two of us when we move there permanently and we ain't getting any younger. Thinking about a handful of sheep, a few goats and maybe a calf or two. We have about 6 acres available to turn into pasture but we plan on doing it a little at a time following our motto of "start small and don't go broke". Once it's pasture, it's staying pasture. Planning on rotational grazing.

For me, in zone 4, heavy red clay, not cropped in 30 years, I would spread as much manure as I had and could buy from neighbors. Then plow it as soon as it was dry enough to plow. Disc it a few times to get it level. Broadcast 5 or 6 tons of calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate (Lime or Dolomite). When the early grasses and yellow rocket sprout, drag a spike tooth drag over it. After the late season weeds start up and the canary grass tries to take over, I spray a pint per acre of glyphosate per acre. Then in a couple weeks, around Labor Day, I use my drill to plant 80 pounds of Spelt and 8 pounds of timothy and 8 pounds of medium red clover per acre. I use a cultipacker behind the grain drill.

If it gets too dry to plow, I rototill, but that takes a lot of horsepower and goes slow.

Then I fight the Sand hill cranes from pulling out the sprouted grain, followed by the migrating Canada Geese that fill up on the green sprouts. Next the Whitetail deer herd up on the field.

The following year, I walk the field and pull weeds before they go to seed. I use a shovel on thistles and amaranth, to get the roots.

I harvest the Spelt with an antique 1953 hand crank start, Self propelled combine that has a Scour Clean that catches weeds seeds before it goes into the grain bin. I rake and bale the straw. The following year, I have a lush pasture or hay field.

If I wanted, I could burn the dead grass from a field in early spring. When it starts greening up real good, spray it with a bit of glyphosate and broadcast 100 pounds of 0-0-60 commercial fertilizer and when the soil is wet, run my grain drill over it with the cultipacker on behind. I'd plant 15 pounds of clover, timothy mix. Each year that I pasture it, I broadcast a couple tons of lime. A couple times a year, I'd walk the field and pull or spray weed infestations.

We have no plow, tractor or any type of the equipment described above. We're the weird neighbors who decided to buy a farm in our 40s. Whatever we do has to be able to be done with a wheelbarrow and hand tools. And a scythe because DH just bought one because we're not weird enough! So far, haven't found a source of manure. Nobody anywhere around has livestock with the exception of the neighbor who has a handful of chickens. I'd rather not spray a bunch of chemicals, not because I have anything against Monsanto, but because we are trying to live as natural a life as possible.

I noticed that you said you try to get rid of the canary grass. Is canary grass a bad thing? I ask because it was one of the things I was thinking of planting but if it's not good, I'll cross it off my list. I was also thinking of trefoil, clover, orchard grass, rye grass and fescue.

Thanks for your help.

farmerDale · #**186** 04/18/14, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highlands

Which is why it's important to know your farmer, beyond just the terms on the label.

For farmers, reach out and let people know what you do. My way of doing that is my blog. It describes our family, our land, our livestock, what they eat, how they live, our ways of doing things and very clearly states what things mean such as sustainable, family owned and operated, etc.

This education thing goes both ways. Farmers need to educate the consumers and consumers need to educate themselves.

I try to educate people on here about what I do. Some listen and show respect for my career, some never listen. I agree we need to better educate the public. I have a friend who does an exemplary job dispelling myths on her blog. I have thought hard about starting one of my own, but to get good exposure, you need a lot of time.

I have mentioned many times I would love to do farm tours, but I am so far from anywhere, getting folks out is impossible.

Maybe I should blog...

idigbeets · #**187** 04/18/14, 12:18 PM

haypoint,

we seed reed canary grass in various places around our farm. It can withstand standing water for long periods of time, so it goes in those low lying or drainage areas. It does take some time to establish, but once in it is very hardy. The cattle trample it every fall and it comes back no problem, biggest issue is to let it reseed itself every other year. It will spread via seed and rhizome.

BlueRidgeFarms · #**188** 04/18/14, 05:29 PM

I think there was a mix up in the formatting above. If this isn't the correct formatting, I apologize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

As you already said, what works for one, might not work for you. To get an answer that fits your situation, I'd need to know a lot more about your pasture. Where is it? Annual rainfall? Zone? Soil type? Soil test results? Soil ph?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLFarmMI

Northern Monroe Co, MI. Annual rainfall is about 35 inches. Very wet in the spring. Plan on eventually tiling the fields if we can ever afford to. Most folks around us have tiled fields. Zone -- we straddle 5b and 6a if I recall correctly. We have that oh, so lovely Michigan blue clay. Haven't done a soil test on the area we want to make pasture yet but we did on the area we have the garden and the P and K were ok but needed N. Don't recall the ph because the test results are down at the farm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

Then I'd need to know if Monsanto is the Devil or Savior in your mind? What are you pasturing in this land? How many per acre? Do you intend on leaving it pasture for three years or thirty years? Intensive grazing and lots of moveable fencing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLFarmMI

Monsanto is neither the Devil nor the Savior in my mind. Just a company. Not planning on many animals since it will be just the two of us when we move there permanently and we ain't getting any younger. Thinking about a handful of sheep, a few goats and maybe a calf or two. We have about 6 acres available to turn into pasture but we plan on doing it a little at a time following our motto of "start small and don't go broke". Once it's pasture, it's staying pasture. Planning on rotational grazing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

For me, in zone 4, heavy red clay, not cropped in 30 years, I would spread as much manure as I had and could buy from neighbors. Then plow it as soon as it was dry enough to plow. Disc it a few times to get it level. Broadcast 5 or 6 tons of calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate (Lime or Dolomite). When the early grasses and yellow rocket sprout, drag a spike tooth drag over it. After the late season weeds start up and the canary grass tries to take over, I spray a pint per acre of glyphosate per acre. Then in a couple weeks, around Labor Day, I use my drill to plant 80 pounds of Spelt and 8 pounds of timothy and 8 pounds of medium red clover per acre. I use a cultipacker behind the grain drill.

If it gets too dry to plow, I rototill, but that takes a lot of horsepower and goes slow.

Then I fight the Sand hill cranes from pulling out the sprouted grain, followed by the migrating Canada Geese that fill up on the green sprouts. Next the Whitetail deer herd up on the field.

The following year, I walk the field and pull weeds before they go to seed. I use a shovel on thistles and amaranth, to get the roots.

I harvest the Spelt with an antique 1953 hand crank start, Self propelled combine that has a Scour Clean that catches weeds seeds before it goes into the grain bin. I rake and bale the straw. The following year, I have a lush pasture or hay field.

If I wanted, I could burn the dead grass from a field in early spring. When it starts greening up real good, spray it with a bit of glyphosate and broadcast 100 pounds of 0-0-60 commercial fertilizer and when the soil is wet, run my grain drill over it with the cultipacker on behind. I'd plant 15 pounds of clover, timothy mix. Each year that I pasture it, I broadcast a couple tons of lime. A couple times a year, I'd walk the field and pull or spray weed infestations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLFarmMI

We have no plow, tractor or any type of the equipment described above. We're the weird neighbors who decided to buy a farm in our 40s. Whatever we do has to be able to be done with a wheelbarrow and hand tools. And a scythe because DH just bought one because we're not weird enough! So far, haven't found a source of manure. Nobody anywhere around has livestock with the exception of the neighbor who has a handful of chickens. I'd rather not spray a bunch of chemicals, not because I have anything against Monsanto, but because we are trying to live as natural a life as possible.

I noticed that you said you try to get rid of the canary grass. Is canary grass a bad thing? I ask because it was one of the things I was thinking of planting but if it's not good, I'll cross it off my list. I was also thinking of trefoil, clover, orchard grass, rye grass and fescue.

haypoint · #**189** 04/19/14, 03:02 PM

For me, Canary grass matures too early, becoming unpalatable prior to the weather being dry/warm enough to dry. It is better suited as bio-mass for turning cellulose into ethanol.
Creating a healthy productive, weed free pasture without equipment is like building a house without power tools. Possible but so labor intensive to be near impossible. IMHO

SLFarmMI · #**190** 04/19/14, 03:27 PM

Sadly, we have no choice right now about having no equipment. Believe me, I ain't cutting grass with a scythe because I like the exercise.

Tractors and such things are just way out of our price range right now.

logbuilder · #**191** 04/19/14, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arabian knight

Then I am sure you read this part also.
subsequently dried in twelve rotary driers at temperatures ranging from 900⁰ - 1200⁰F. Any surviving pathogens are killed from the extreme hot temperatures.

The product is sampled thoroughly in our testing process, including over 20 tests per day, which guarantees Milorganite complies with standards for protecting human health and the environment.
If I remember correctly even Mike Rowe did a show on this when he was doing Dirty Jobs.

Wasn't there some concern over heavy metals being in the stuff because so many people take medications? Is this removed by the heat?

**highlands** · #**192** 04/19/14, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logbuilder

Wasn't there some concern over heavy metals being in the stuff because so many people take medications? Is this removed by the heat?

Yes. I wouldn't put it on my fields, orchards or gardens. They're using it on golf courses which might be a good place. I'll wait another 20 years to see what the research shows long term. Theoretically they should be able to process it far enough to make it safe. I just feel like being the guinea pig on this one.

haypoint · #**193** 04/22/14, 01:13 PM

A farmer east of Gaylord, MI has a contract with the city. They come out and inject the waste into the soil, about a foot deep, with a big four wheel drive tanker. Spred evenly over the field. His corn seems to love it.

Interesting that many see this as safe, while in California, during a drought, they drain a 35,000,000 reservoir because one guy took a leak in it. But the ducks swimming nearby were not a threat?

**highlands** · #**194** 04/22/14, 04:03 PM

I'd rather drink ---- than city septic. People put all sorts of toxic chemicals, medications, heavy metals, etc down their drains. They think of the drain as being a dumping ground for anything they want to get rid of. Nasty.

rambler · #**195** 04/22/14, 10:20 PM

I don't think we can be truly sustainable unless we do use the sludge, recycle it upon our crops.

But the the industrial items that can get in it are a concern, certainly.

Danged if we do and danged if we don't.

I believe around here the test quite a bit for the heavy metals and such, and rotate the fields they apply it to.

As well it is different if used on a grain crop that goes to livestock, puts it a step farther away, I guess I'd not want my carrots to come from a sludge field either.

Paul

Gravytrain · #**196** 04/23/14, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

As well it is different if used on a grain crop that goes to livestock, puts it a step farther away, I guess I'd not want my carrots to come from a sludge field either.

Paul

I don't think I'd want my beef or pork or chicken to come from feed that came from a sludge field either...I'm pretty sure my customers wouldn't.

**highlands** · #**197** 04/23/14, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

I don't think we can be truly sustainable unless we do use the sludge, recycle it upon our crops.

People need to stop dumping toxins down the drain first. It's a multi-step process. As long as people think of the drain as a dumping ground it isn't suitable for growing food. Maybe for golf courses but frankly I would not want to grow food down water of that golf course.

When people take full responsibility for their toxic wastes and stop dumping it down the drain and dispose of it properly then the sludge may be okay for crops. Not until then. That's what it will take to get sustainable. Frankly, I don't think people will change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

As well it is different if used on a grain crop that goes to livestock, puts it a step farther away, I guess I'd not want my carrots to come from a sludge field either.

Unfortunately with heavy metals and such that makes the problem worse by concentrating it up the food chain. This is the issue with seafood and mercury.