A Honest View of the Efficacy of the 4-H Program
 

People around here are always trying to get me to enroll my children in the 4-H program. Now when I was a kid, I participated in it and so I guess I know a little of what it's about, but I don't want my children involved in it. Our whole family is involved in our agriculture here already. I don't see how participating in this would benefit us at all.

But taking a realistic look at this program, which has been around since 1902 (so Wikipedia says), I think it's about time to consider it an abject failure.

Many rural towns and communities are virtual ghost towns if you're looking for anyone between the ages of 18-40.

The average age of farmers in America today is 57.

I think the evidence shows that 4-H's ability to foster a love of the farm and agriculture cannot compete with the constant drumbeat of "go to college, get a good job, live in the city."

Thoughts?

Once you go to college and get a good education, then you can become CEO of a farming corporation, and not have to know a thing about farming..

They are able to sell their animals for unbelievable amounts of money and then find that ain't the way it works in real farm life. They are also conditioned that an animal cannot be raised w/o bagged feed.

My dd is in it because it's a way for her meet some kids. She's homeschooled and I am a serious anti social hermit. She is allowed on project, her animal, to sell at fair. Anything else she wants to do we'll do, but not through 4-H. As it is, her animal sells for next to nothing (not related to anybody local) but I am also showing her how to raise the animal correctly. In my view at least. :) So her input is minimal.

I did 4-H as a kid and only thought of it as a cash cow. They keep telling kids it isn't about the money. Yeah, right. If you can sell a lamb for $400-$900, how is it not about the money. At our 4-H there is nobody to teach the kids about the animals anyway. If the parents can't figure it out, too bad.

As you can tell, I have a very low opinion about 4-H.

My grandma and mom both were advisers. All their kids and my siblings and I participated for years. I thought it was good for rural kids to be able to get together and participate in group activities and projects like booth planning and set-up. I enjoyed it very much when I was a kid, in one county. The other county was terrible. Project and demonstration winners were picked by who they were, not their project or demonstration.

My son participated in one group one year. Group was very clicky, and there was only one he was allowed to participate in due to our address. There were no real group activities and booth set-up and design was done by the main click. Still he enjoyed 4-H. He didn't take any ag projects but he did well in the ones he did take.

I think the books and project objectives are set up so kids can learn on their own at their own pace. All the books I saw were very well written and encouraged independent study and record keeping. I still use some of the knowledge I gained in my years of 4-H.

I had similar experiences with 4-H as a child. I was the only member of the small 4-H club whose family actually raised livestock. One year I very proudly won Grand Champion at the fair for a lamb I raised. It fetched $65 (in 1970's prices). The top selling lamb went for over $800, was purchased by the grandparents of the kid who raised it, and then the lamb was given back to the kid as a pet.

I dunno what lesson was to be learned from that, but when my continued participation in 4-H was brought into question the following year, I declined. I had enough to do with feeding the cows, horses, and working in the garden without adding in the feeding and halter-training of a lamb which wasn't going to financially break even.

The local 4-H group is only as good as the unpaid, under appreciated volunteers who run it. Some kids have an excellent experience, some not so much. But even if they have a less than stellar leader, that in and of itself is an opportunity to learn.

The business side of a 4-H project should still help those kids who go to college for a career off the farm. When you feel those dollars going out versus what is coming in, it has more impact than just reading about "expenses".

If you don't want your kids in it, everyone should respect that. That is your own family matter. But don't wish for its demise for all kids.

Is FFA as bad as what ya'll are making 4H to sound?

Well, I never participated in that ... but if you consider how many of those "Future Farmers of America" instead turn into "Future Factory/Cubicle Workers of America" then I would guess it sort of has the same problem.

I'm not saying that 4-H is a BAD program, by any means, nor am I calling for its demise. Its existence is not harming me and I don't pay for it.

But I think that agriculturists probably ought to start looking at it with an honest view of what it's really doing ... which apparently is jack-squat.

I would venture to say that probably more members of the high school chess club go on to continue to play chess than participants of these juvenile agricultural programs continue to participate in agriculture.

My experience with FFA was part of my course at the joint vocational school. Not as many group activities, no fair participation, individual projects were non-existent. We did a fruit sale and attended meetings. Although I did get to participate in a state contest and brought home a trophy.

People are also suggesting to me that our kids should be in 4-H. After having been in it I don't know what kids would learn except that the parents do the work for their kids.

We have a variety of animals for our kids and they will learn work ethics that way. They also get to help farmer I work for.

Pretty much the same as Boy Scouts and the Pinewood Derby... I didn't know many kids that built their own cars... or actually earned half their badges their selves..

I'm not sure how you think 4-H is going to keep kids on farms. The economics of farming are one of the biggest reasons why younger generations leave the farm. Our kids were involved in 4-H, 1 lives on a farm, 2 live on land in rural areas and one lives in suburbia. They all have animals and gardens, none of them farm.

I always thought TN 4 H was pretty good...saw it on the news several times. Here is a list of their current events. And you are always seeing the same thing for FFA in TN always showing projects in the news. UT Extension puts on the 4H so maybe that makes a difference.

Maybe it is regional...and YMMV

4H Events
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/4h/ev...ties/index.htm


Doesnt look like it is all about farming either...

I was in 4-H from age 10-18 and I loved it (so did my sister). DSS and DSD are in 4-H now, this is their 2nd year. We love it. They love it. They get to meet friends, do projects, learn how to raise and show animals, go on trips, etc. Nothing but good experiences, with me and the kids so far. 4-H is pretty big in our area, and both farm kids and city kids participate. There is something for everyone...small animals (like gerbils, rabbits, etc), dogs, horses, livestock, firearms, arts & crafts, etc. :happy2:

The 4H program here has literally, no exaggeration, saved my younger son's life. He has suffered for most of his life with severe, crippling migraine headaches. Before he got involved with 4H, he said many times he wished he could "just die and get it over with". I was afraid that he'd end up doing something that caused that to happen. He hadn't found his passion in life at that time. Through a very odd turn of events he got involved with 4H. Since we live in the suburbs right now (bought our property about 2 years ago and can't live there yet) 4H was not in our experience. It changed DS's life and gave him something to look forward to and a reason to go on. I have seen that kid cleaning stalls and exercising his animal with a raging migraine because he knew his animal was counting on him. He has made more friends and developed more leadership/responsibility skills in the last 4 years than he had in all his previous years. He has found his passion.

He is currently involved in a vocational program through the county and is exploring a career in agriculture although he isn't quite sure what area of agriculture that will be. Currently he is thinking of greenhouse management. So, I'd say that 4H has been successful for him.

Greenhouse management would be my DREAM job.

LOL we have people pester us about that stuff too. "Oh you raise rabbits. Do the kids show them for 4H?" When we say no we get hounded. Or "oh so yall really like to shoot. Are you in the 4H shooting club?" Why would we sign our kids up for something that will have us driving to meetings or competitions, when we do all that stuff at home already? I have a range in my backyard and we can have family competitions any time we want. No gas money necessary. Some people seem to be quite obsessed with getting others to sign up. Maybe there are bonus points for bringing in new members. :-)

Mine did! He only stayed in scouting for a couple years, maybe that is why???

It's a big deal around here, some groups are great, others cliquey and snobbish and all in between.

A lot of the kids end up at MSU in ag programs of one kind or another, my horse trainer is a young guy who came up that way and is at MSU now, he started out pursuing a phd in pig nutrition, but he's decided to switch to a large animal DVM track.

Huh.. many of you seem to be have a different expectation of 4H than we do...

I could be thermopkt's twin... we homeschool and I am no social butterfly, so this is a way for our kids to meet and interact with other kids. I have 5 kids though the oldest is not in 4H this year as she is now doing College through an online college (majoring in Women's Ministries) She will be doing this while working as a nanny for a couple in a small rural town - she leaves next week!

With 4 children each doing at least three projects, they know they have to do the work themselves. Yes, I do have to help where needed, and yes, going to meetings, etc. takes up time, but it has been SO worth it for our family. Two of my children are really shy and I have seen them really come out of their shell and take leadership positions.

This year our kids are in:

Outdoor Adventures - two are in the Hiking (3 day hike!) project and two are in the Camping project. My husband and I lead this project. This is the second year for my children involved in the Hiking project. Last year we went on a three day hike and it was wonderful planning and executing this hike with them.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...psea1e6d6f.jpg
Map skills

Cake Decorating

Poultry - our kids care for their poultry themselves and get to show them. Only market animals can be auctioned at our Fair, so our children have only shown their well cared for poultry, not sold it.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...psf330f742.jpg
Winning a blue ribbon was pretty exciting ;)

Computers

Muzzleloading - unfortunately for my two that signed up for this, we don't have an instructor this year because the class was full, so they have to sit it out

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...psb3f1ce9a.jpg
Waiting to have their projects judged. They don't always get Grand Champion, they don't always get blue ribbons, and they don't always go to State, but they always learn something from each project they take part in.. even if it's how to graciously take someone else's honest criticism.

BB Gun Shooting

Rabbits - my 13 year old DD is in this project and she has amazed me with how well she cares for her rabbits. She is constantly reading rabbit related literature and we've never had to remind her to feed her rabbits, clean out the cages, etc.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...pse016390f.jpg

Photography - through this my DD17 entered a rather big State competition last year and she won first place. She has entered and won some other smaller competitions as well. Our photography teacher has been excellent.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps80e320a5.jpg

Clothing: Clothes You Buy - last year my DD17 did this as well and went to State. She didn't place on the State level but it was a good experience for her.

We've also done robotics, woodworking and goats. Some projects have been better than others.. it really does strongly depend on the volunteers.

Three of my children are serving their club as officers this year (treasurer, photographer and recreation leader) and two of them are on the Youth Council and one (shyest of the bunch!) is an officer on that (vice-president.)

If we decide to do a Meat Birds pen this year, it will be the first time my children sell anything in a 4H auction.

Maybe it's because we are not US natives, so had no previous experience at all with 4H. We looked into it and saw all the projects the kids could be involved in, and we thought it looked worthy. We didn't even find out until last year about the auctioning of the market animals, so that's never been our focus.

Then there is Demonstration day where they get to speak to a room full of people and demonstrate a project, skill, etc. Granted, that has a small monetary reward, but the experience and confidence it builds far outweighs the small amount they get.

Now, some of the projects we have had to lead because our kids were the only ones in the projects and/or no one else was available to lead... and some of the events have been very pro whatever college was hosting it, but we've never been sheeple so we just shrug it off and make the best of things. Our club tries to do one community service project a month and our children have been able to be a part of that, alongside their peers.

From wikipedia: 4-H is a community of young people across America learning citizenship, leadership, and life skills.

Perhaps 4H has come a far way from when it started.. but it's not just about farming anymore.

PS. Sorry about the huge photos... I did try resize.

My spouse was in it as a child and had poor experiences. His family found that unless you were a member of certain clans your animals didn't win. When we moved here we got the same sales pitch to join 4H and we did since we wanted to give the kids a chance to meet other kids. They were bored out of their skulls the first year and asked not to have to go back.

My only real problem with it is the whole thing with raising and showing animals is so unnatural from start to finish. So we let the kids pick animals they wanted to raise and then raise them naturally and they enjoyed it.

It's the same with 4-H and Little League and Scouts. It is TOTALLY dependent on the adults involved. It's not the program that is good or bad. It's the leaders.

My expectations are irrelevant. 4-H had, as its original charter, promotion of the farm life through public school education.

I can see now, from the experiences y'all are posting about, that it has morphed from its original charter to create future farmers into more of a social "farm club". So in reality, it has no more value to the community at large than say, chess club or debate club.

That said, if it's fun then there's no real harm in doing it, but I have yet to understand all the impetus in rural communities to drive people into it.

Do chess clubs and debate clubs do public service projects? Because most 4-H clubs do public service projects.

I think a lot of it is expectations and college. I'm constantly pressured to put dd in more projects because people see all the things she is learning/doing at home and think she should be doing it for 4-H. When I ask why, I'm almost always told it looks good on a college application. That, and that it supposedly teaches kids responsibility. I figure they already get that at home, or they don't. In which case, 4-H isn't all that likely to instill it. Although I'm sure there are exceptions, always are.

I so wanted to get my kids in 4-H, but after I started looking at it I decided no way. I don't believe in raising animals the same way they do, I'm not interested in raising mutated muscle bound animals that cost $50 a day of special feeds to keep looking like that, I like slow growing, healthy animals raised on more natural foods that taste great when they come out of the freezer.

So do a lot of juvenile correctional facilities. :)

Sounds like scope creep to me. I'm not sure how washing the local firetruck or picking up trash on Route 270 instills a future love of farming.

Directly from the 4-H website:
I'd say they're doing a fine job, even if you think it's worthless or a waste of time. I don't see anywhere in there where it says it's goal is to promote young people to stay in agriculture. 4-H is bigger than just agriculture now, and it's not just for farm kids.

It's all about money money money

:D

There's a LOT of things that I think are a waste of time, but that's not the point either.

Clearly the goal they state on their website NOW is different from their charter goal in 1902.

So let's analyze then the impact they're making today, with their current stated goal.

Oh wait. I don't think we can. Those stated goals are pretty dang fuzzy. They read like every corporate mission statement I've ever seen.

Do you 4-H members pay dues?Is there a cost associated?

I'm not really IN the secular community, but I don't think I've ever seen any local 4-H children actually doing anything. I see Girl Scouts selling cookies, and I see kids in orange jumpsuits picking up trash on the highway, but I don't think I've seen the local 4-H clubs do anything. And I suppose, if they're like most organizations, if they did do anything there would be signs up about it all over town.

It is most certainly NOT, at least not in my area, and neither is FFA, gosh they even let girls be in FFA now, OMG!!

I think that the real value that a good 4-H chapter can provide children is safe, organized, adult-overseen social interaction that can help bring to flower qualities and traits that might otherwise remain dormant. It can help kids develop their confidence, responsibility and leadership. There are so many different areas of interest available that there really is something for everyone.

Bonus points if it gets/keeps the kids interested in agriculture.

You know Ernie if you are not interested in your children going what does it matter except to carry on a conversation on HT or argue.

I read on HT all the time about kids not learning responsibilities etc etc, growing up to depend on the government...but yet here is something that helps teach kids responsibility and what not especially if they dont have the knowledge at home from their parents...and all people do is berate it.

Are you bored and having nothing else to do? Just curious.

That's the great thing about 4-H. It's so broad because they don't want to exclude anyone. Everyone is welcome, and there is a HUGE selection of activities. To narrow it down to one type of subject (like agriculture) would prevent many kids from feeling like they can join.

Our county has a $10/per year fee for joining, and that goes to cover all sorts of costs like administrative fees, supplies, etc. Most of the workshops they teach are free, but sometimes they'll ask a small fee to help cover supplies. For example, this past December they had a cookie baking party, hosted at the 4-H park which has a large commercial kitchen. They asked a $5 fee, which covered flour, sugar, etc. People were welcome to come and bake cookies all day. There is also a summer day camp here, and that costs a fee since they provide so many activities, and also feed the kids.

And when I was a kid, we picked up trash along the highway, we walked in a 5K once to raise money for a charity, we cleaned barns and the fairgrounds in preparation for the fair. This past Christmas, my kids' club filled boxes with supplies and a few toys to send to an orphanage in Haiti. Those are just a few examples of public service projects...I can't name them all.

At this point, I'm not even sure why I'm telling you all this though, because I'm pretty sure nothing anyone says matters, you've got your mind made up.:cool: I'd think any club that teaches things like gardening, canning, sewing, etc (you know, skills we like here on HT) would be a GOOD thing. I guess not for some people...

I think that a lot of the 4-H "recruiting" is for their talent pool. If there's someone in the community that is good at something, it is very likely that a 4-H leader will try to recruit or headhunt that person. As others have said, a chapter is only as good as its leaders. If there's no muzzleloading experts to be had - no muzzleloading class. If the people doing dairy goats only know how to do it on bagged feed, that's all that's going to be taught. So if people are hounding you to join 4-H, take it as a compliment!! They want your expertise.

I was in 4H for a very brief time when I was a kid. It sounded good, my parents encouraged it. But with chores [weeding and harvesting, milking], then I had to make the trip into town for the meetings, and try to be back on the farm before dark. I guess it may depend on how far your farm is from town, peddling a bicycle like I did. And with the seasons, some times farm work is way too much for a kid to be doing much of anything off the farm.

We had cattle at home. I was thinking about picking a project that I could do between chores so I said rabbits. My father wanted me to do cattle. So after the bruises healed and I could return to school, I signed up for cattle. Then I had to find pasture I could lease and buy a calf. I was not allowed to touch any money that had earned [it all had to go into the bank for my college fund]. My father would not lease me any pasture to use. And then it was harvest time again. I never attended any more 4H meetings after that.

20 years later, with our children, we got into 4H. We were 4H leaders. Our children seemed to enjoy it. But we took them to the events, and we paid for the stuff.

Now days I sit on the Board for our Cooperative Extension Office. I was shocked to learn that we have full-time hired staff that run 4H. It is no longer volunteer.

It has gone the way that Boy Scouts went.

When I was in 4H 50 years ago I only had to go about a mile to the leaders house. Many of us here that have worked with 4H got a measure on the ballot and it passed to fund 4H and youth programs in this county. Passed by 80/20 margin. There are cooking, sewing, leadership and livestock programs and clubs. Kids get out what they put in....James

Seems they teach a lot of the things people here are always complaining kids are not taught any more.

I think it comes down to where you live, 4H here is a joke. The ONLY project that is seen as acceptable in my county is cows. If you want any other project you are "on your own".

There is a lot more to 4H than just farm-related things. There is art, crafts, woodworking, raising small animals, dog training, events and a lot more. And the kids that get into leadership roles can use that to help earn a scholarship - a local kid got a Yale scholarship and his 4H leadership played a role. Also, we have a local theater group and there are also kids productions for 4H. Also, the ballet lessons in our local area are part of 4H "cultural arts" and they do a performance each year at the county Cultural Arts Festival each spring - my daughter is in this. It is all what you make of it.