Have you built a Butt and Pass Log Home? Planning to...

logbuilder · #41 03/10/14, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorichristie

DH told me that same thing, prefers to use mortar. That isn't set in stone, but will be decided before he begins to build. Yes, galvanized is the way to go. All your input and advice is excellent, appreciate you posting and would enjoy seeing pics of both the homes you built!

Here is a thread from 2012 that has pics of the little cabin and also some of the larger swedish cope house.

Building a small log cabin

logbuilder · #42 03/10/14, 11:35 PM

Also, here is a website I started when I was researching log building. I haven't kept it up to date but there is still some useful info.

http://www.ourloghouse.com

ChristieAcres · #43 03/11/14, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logbuilder

Here is a thread from 2012 that has pics of the little cabin and also some of the larger swedish cope house.

Building a small log cabin

That cute cabin had potential, but your larger home is outstanding, rather majestic looking with that impressive view to go with it

Do you mind posting the pics on this thread? I am just beating someone else by asking, since this thread will be ongoing...

I liked the technique pics, since they showed detail. Time really flies, doesn't it?!

On your site... I had already seen it while I was up researching on the net (looking for pictures of Butt and Pass homes), read a lot of your content, and emailed you at the site addy, LOL. Yet here you are!

I had emailed you to find out the "end of the building story..."

For others following this thread, be sure and check out Logbuilder's Site as there is excellent information.

wharton · #44 03/11/14, 11:35 AM

Lori, Unfortunately the whole concept of butt and pass has a lot of negatives associated with it since there have been massive failures in the kit home industry, and typically it involved that style of construction. The issues typically involve a lack of accommodation for settling, air and water infiltration, and insect damage due to poor design and maintenance.

As for your understanding of shrinkage and settling, it seems to have some gaps. Your hubby waited several years to chink and did so specifically to wait until the majority of shrinkage had taken place. That said, shrinkage is a factor in all decisions from allowing for it in plumbing installation, to door and window frames, stairs and attached porches. Bottom line is that shrinkage ( and often severe shrinkage) happens in all but standing dead logs and particularly in green ones.

On the positive side, you seem to be heading toward a hybrid of butt and pass and chink style. This addresses many issues, since the vast majority of butt and pass structures are not chinked, and often suffer accordingly.

I have worked on crews doing new butt and pass kit homes, and on hand hewn products. I have done electrical and plumbing in them, and unfortunately some repairs and consulting on a really, really poorly done lodge. It is a ten bedroom home from one of the major kit manufacturers, and it was, and is, a patched up disaster.

When it comes to the down side of log ownership, the most telling comments came from a few contractors I do business with. One is a very successful builder who lives down the street from me, in a stunning log home. I asked if he prefers to build log or stick. He told me that, after all the years of owning and building them, he really tries to talk his potential log home clients into a stick frame with log siding. I was shocked and asked why? He then said it would take a few hours to really answer the question, since there are so many issues that can be avoided buy staying away from logs. The other comment came from a specialty contractor that does refinishing and rot repairs on them. I asked the crew foreman if he would ever own a log home. He smiled and said never. His comment was that you can't spend five days a week repairing these things and not get a good understanding as to why you don't want one.

ChristieAcres · #45 03/11/14, 12:31 PM

Quote:

On the positive side, you seem to be heading toward a hybrid of butt and pass and chink style. This addresses many issues, since the vast majority of butt and pass structures are not chinked, and often suffer accordingly.

I have worked on crews doing new butt and pass kit homes, and on hand hewn products. I have done electrical and plumbing in them, and unfortunately some repairs and consulting on a really, really poorly done lodge. It is a ten bedroom home from one of the major kit manufacturers, and it was, and is, a patched up disaster

Thanks for posting and also pointing out potential issues. Fortunately, we have plenty of time to meet up with DH's old buddies, who still live in the Butt and Pass style log homes they built themselves (30 years ago...). This gives me an opportunity to not only assess how they have held up, but also discuss any issues the guys have had with them. These homes are built with round peeled logs, Butt and Pass method, DH's was chinked with mortar while the other guys went with Permachink.

Since DH is becoming a member of the Log Home Builders Association, there is a wealth of information and access to resources. In addition, there is a forum where the public can post and ask questions. This allows for me to get plenty of information from other builders and inquire about their experiences.

Yes, there have been some real nightmare stories resulting from building with log home kits. I have never had any experience with them, so can't really post opinions from what I have read. Other log home owners who built with kits can chime in. I am sure not all had such negative results. I prefer not to compare building types, respecting others can make their own informed choices.

While DH was reading one of our log home books, he started pointing out the errors being made, namely the foundation, but also others. Fortunately for DH, he has the prior experience to draw from, and can see firsthand how his own log home held up all these years.

I would encourage any who are considering building the type of log we are, to visit this site and do their research carefully. No matter what type of home is built, it is a decision that shouldn't be made lightly.

http://www.buildloghomes.org/

DH lived in the log home he built for over 15 years and told me he had no real issues with settling, door frames and windows weren't distorted, but he told me, "It is real simple. I took a class and built it exactly like Skip Ellsworth taught me to." When DH was building his home, Skip brought his classes to see the progress. I have posted this link before, but here it is again:

http://www.buildloghomes.org/why-goo...es-dont-settle

Here is another link that relates to your post:

http://www.buildloghomes.org/warning...-kit-log-homes

#46 03/11/14, 12:49 PM

I can't offer much help but I can't help being curious why ( properly built ) log homes doesn't need any sealer & doesn't need any outside maintenance . Raw , bare wood is just that , raw bare wood .

logbuilder · #47 03/11/14, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wharton

Lori, Unfortunately the whole concept of butt and pass has a lot of negatives associated with it since there have been massive failures in the kit home industry, and typically it involved that style of construction. The issues typically involve a lack of accommodation for settling, air and water infiltration, and insect damage due to poor design and maintenance.

As for your understanding of shrinkage and settling, it seems to have some gaps. Your hubby waited several years to chink and did so specifically to wait until the majority of shrinkage had taken place. That said, shrinkage is a factor in all decisions from allowing for it in plumbing installation, to door and window frames, stairs and attached porches. Bottom line is that shrinkage ( and often severe shrinkage) happens in all but standing dead logs and particularly in green ones.

On the positive side, you seem to be heading toward a hybrid of butt and pass and chink style. This addresses many issues, since the vast majority of butt and pass structures are not chinked, and often suffer accordingly.

I have worked on crews doing new butt and pass kit homes, and on hand hewn products. I have done electrical and plumbing in them, and unfortunately some repairs and consulting on a really, really poorly done lodge. It is a ten bedroom home from one of the major kit manufacturers, and it was, and is, a patched up disaster.

When it comes to the down side of log ownership, the most telling comments came from a few contractors I do business with. One is a very successful builder who lives down the street from me, in a stunning log home. I asked if he prefers to build log or stick. He told me that, after all the years of owning and building them, he really tries to talk his potential log home clients into a stick frame with log siding. I was shocked and asked why? He then said it would take a few hours to really answer the question, since there are so many issues that can be avoided buy staying away from logs. The other comment came from a specialty contractor that does refinishing and rot repairs on them. I asked the crew foreman if he would ever own a log home. He smiled and said never. His comment was that you can't spend five days a week repairing these things and not get a good understanding as to why you don't want one.

Shrinkage in log homes is surely a consideration. I have a butt and pass cabin and swedish cope house. They very different in terms of shrinkage and the ways you deal with it.

First, let's make sure we understand how logs shrink. As logs dry out, they shrink. They do not shrink in length, they shrink in diameter.

In swedish cope, since the logs are stacked on each other, the top of a wall will loose height due to the cumulative shrinkage of all the logs in that wall. If each log shrinks 1/4" and there are 12 logs stacked, you will loose 3" from the top of the wall. Any window or door openings will be reduced also. With swedish cope, you have may different ways you build to account for this shrinkage. Interior framed walls need to 'float' since the surrounding walls and roof (or second floor is two story) will get shorter. Trust me, it is complicated but if you do it right, things will work out in the end. Generally, with swedish cope you want your logs to be as dry as possible when building.

Butt and pass is an entirely different animal. First you can build with everything from green to bone dry logs. Here is the special sauce. When you stack a log on another one, you drill a 1/2" hole thru both logs. Then you take a piece of 1/2" rebar and pound it thru both logs. You put the rebar about 3' apart and do it on every round. Turns out 1/2" rebar is not round. It is somewhat oval. When you pound it into a 1/2" hole, it gets tight. It effectively locks the logs together from top to bottom. Now when the logs start to shrink in diameter, it turns out the walls do not get shorter. The gaps between the logs gets wider by the amount of shrinkage of one log - usually about 1/4" depending on diameter and initial moisture content. If you have already chinked with mortar, it creates a little gap at the top of the chinked joint. When that happens and you want to fix it, you mix some mortar a little wetter and fill the gap with a cake icing bag. Skip said to use a motorcycle tire filled with mortar and squirt it out thru the valve stem. I never tried it that way but found the concept interesting.

As a result of how butt and pass logs shrink, openings for windows or doors retain their original dimensions. Other than having to do the chinking touch up, shrinkage really isn't a problem. Also, because of having all that rebar holding things together, it is an incredibly strong structure.

Hope this helps.

On the question about not needing a sealer on the outside, you have to realize that the worst enemy of wood and logs is moisture. If you keep something dry, it won't rot. That's why most log homes have really big eaves. It keeps everything dry. However, I do not advocate not sealing the outside. On the swedish cope house, I used a product called Sikens Cetol made specially for log houses. Nasty stuff to apply but it wears really well and has a good UV blocker.

ChristieAcres · #48 03/11/14, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Butt and pass is an entirely different animal. First you can build with everything from green to bone dry logs. Here is the special sauce. When you stack a log on another one, you drill a 1/2" hole thru both logs. Then you take a piece of 1/2" rebar and pound it thru both logs. You put the rebar about 3' apart and do it on every round. Turns out 1/2" rebar is not round. It is somewhat oval. When you pound it into a 1/2" hole, it gets tight. It effectively locks the logs together from top to bottom. Now when the logs start to shrink in diameter, it turns out the walls do not get shorter. The gaps between the logs gets wider by the amount of shrinkage of one log - usually about 1/4" depending on diameter and initial moisture content. If you have already chinked with mortar, it creates a little gap at the top of the chinked joint. When that happens and you want to fix it, you mix some mortar a little wetter and fill the gap with a cake icing bag. Skip said to use a motorcycle tire filled with mortar and squirt it out thru the valve stem. I never tried it that way but found the concept interesting.

Thanks for posting great firsthand information again!

DH explained it just like you did in the above paragraph. One can avoid chink issues with shrinkage to a great degree by using dry logs or by waiting for the shrinkage to occur prior to chinking. Since we prefer to build sooner rather than later AND will be logging the trees right off the property for our home, we will build with green logs. Once our home has been built, only insulation will be placed in between the logs, until they are dry enough to chink. Now, that said, mortar is a more natural choice, ,and much more cost efficient. Permachink is more flexible and less chance of separation when shrinkage occurs.

logbuilder · #49 03/11/14, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorichristie

Thanks for posting great firsthand information again!

DH explained it just like you did in the above paragraph. One can avoid chink issues with shrinkage to a great degree by using dry logs or by waiting for the shrinkage to occur prior to chinking. Since we prefer to build sooner rather than later AND will be logging the trees right off the property for our home, we will build with green logs. Once our home has been built, only insulation will be placed in between the logs, until they are dry enough to chink. Now, that said, mortar is a more natural choice, ,and much more cost efficient. Permachink is more flexible and less chance of separation when shrinkage occurs.

I prefer debarking of green logs. One thought you might think about is to cut your trees down in the winter. The sap is down and they will dry faster.

ChristieAcres · #50 03/11/14, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logbuilder

I prefer debarking of green logs. One thought you might think about is to cut your trees down in the winter. The sap is down and they will dry faster.

DH is on the same page, has always logged in the Winter. Good to post this, thanks, especially for those who weren't aware of that

ChristieAcres · #51 03/11/14, 11:55 PM

Knowing our upcoming move, all the building he will be doing, the future logging, and our home building, DH has really ramped up his workouts. He is determined to be in as good of shape as possible. This isn't a bad idea as there is less chance of muscle strain or other injuries that can occur when working hard. My DH has one speed - hard work, not necessarily fast, just works very hard, and can't seem to take a day off. I am trying to figure out why he thinks it will take him two years to build our home...he built the first one in two years and had a full time job. It is great how excited he is and keeps looking through all the books I bought. Turns out, it was a great idea to distract him from just thinking about our move!

WildPrGardens · #52 03/12/14, 05:13 AM

You don't paint or seal a wooden ladder. If you do it will rot, and you won't know until you fall.

#53 03/12/14, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildPrGardens

You don't paint or seal a wooden ladder. If you do it will rot, and you won't know until you fall.

Was this ladder built out of wet , green lumber & then left exposed to insects & the weather year around ?

ChristieAcres · #54 03/12/14, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildPrGardens

You don't paint or seal a wooden ladder. If you do it will rot, and you won't know until you fall.

DH sealed his log home (30) years ago and it hasn't rotted...

logbuilder · #55 03/12/14, 02:55 PM

Lori,

I'm still curious about how you are going to run electrical for the outside log walls. It can be a challenge with log homes.

Do you know what building codes you will be subject to? I had to adhere to the International Building Code (IBC). They required me to have a structural engineer review and 'stamp' the plans. The building dept said they had no idea of how to evaluate a log home and therefore needed the engineer to approve. That cost an additional $1,000. Then there was an issue with insulation. The outer log walls use the logs for insulation. They couldn't calculate what R value it would be. I had to go find some supporting documentation on the R value of a 12" western red cedar log. I was able to and they accepted it. Point is, building with logs is foreign to most building departments.

just_sawing · #56 03/12/14, 06:43 PM

There is a New development in most states. Log Homes are not code unless they have 8 inches or more of logs.
This is the National code that is being adopted nation wide. I am having to handle this here in TN.

ChristieAcres · #57 03/12/14, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logbuilder

Lori,

I'm still curious about how you are going to run electrical for the outside log walls. It can be a challenge with log homes.

Do you know what building codes you will be subject to? I had to adhere to the International Building Code (IBC). They required me to have a structural engineer review and 'stamp' the plans. The building dept said they had no idea of how to evaluate a log home and therefore needed the engineer to approve. That cost an additional $1,000. Then there was an issue with insulation. The outer log walls use the logs for insulation. They couldn't calculate what R value it would be. I had to go find some supporting documentation on the R value of a 12" western red cedar log. I was able to and they accepted it. Point is, building with logs is foreign to most building departments.

When we close on the property, I am going to be contacting the Building Department in that County and find out exactly what building codes we will be subject to. Also, if allowed, I will also make an appointment with one of the Building Inspectors just to go over any typical pitfalls and glean any advice they are willing to share. Decisions of electrical and anything of that nature for codes, will only be done after confirming what is required.

A friend of DH's is an Electrician, likely the guy who will assist if not do the wiring. DH did almost everything himself with advice from some of his friends. He knows plenty of Sub-Contractors, as well.

The LAST thing I would ever want us to face? Failing an inspection and having to re-do anything major, yikes

#58 03/12/14, 08:57 PM

Off topic but I would like to know after all was said & done , did the water heating part of the wood stove live up to your expectations or do you think it could use some improvements in some way ? I have often thought of doing something similar .

ChristieAcres · #59 03/12/14, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WV Hillbilly

Off topic but I would like to know after all was said & done , did the water heating part of the wood stove live up to your expectations or do you think it could use some improvements in some way ? I have often thought of doing something similar .

DH and I are very pleased with how fast his system works, have plenty of hot water for all of our uses, which includes a big soaker tub being filled every night. The recovery is also excellent, just based on how hot the fire is.

For those who may not know what we are referring to:

DH had designed and fabricated our woodstove, then modified it to also heat our water. It has two heat exchanges inside the firebox, is connected to a closed loop system, including the hot water heater (which we keep off). There are extra PRV's, too, can't be too safe. We have been discussing what type of heat we will use in our log home, but haven't decided yet, for sure.

#60 03/12/14, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorichristie

DH and I are very pleased with how fast his system works, have plenty of hot water for all of our uses, which includes a big soaker tub being filled every night. The recovery is also excellent, just based on how hot the fire is.

For those who may not know what we are referring to:

DH had designed and fabricated our woodstove, then modified it to also heat our water. It has two heat exchanges inside the firebox, is connected to a closed loop system, including the hot water heater (which we keep off). There are extra PRV's, too, can't be too safe. We have been discussing what type of heat we will use in our log home, but haven't decided yet, for sure.

Thanks , you can buy coils to install inside a woodstove to build a similar system to what he built . Has he ever said whether he thought a satisfactory system could be built that way ?