Emergency portable generator hookup
 

OK here we go again. More questions about using an emergency generator during a power outage.
Thankfully for everyone reading this no mention will be made of a suicide plug.
Since our latest outage of 20 days ago I purchased an 8500W, 10K surge, gasoline portable generator. I'm in the materials acquisition stage before hooking up to my house. My plan is; to connect to circuits that I need to operate, such as, well pump, furnace pump (in winter), fridge, a couple of lights and maybe TV and DVD player, as well as HW heater.
Now, my plan (and question) is this. I want to run a power cord from the generator to a 50 amp receptacle outside the house which connects to a separate breaker box within the house. The generator has a 50 amp, 120/240 volt plug and I was hoping to run the generator off of that connection into the separate breaker box inside the house. The breaker box would be hooked up as a 50 amp, 240V main breaker and have individual 15 amp breakers to run to each needed appliance. There would also be a separate 30 amp, 240 volt breaker to operate the HW heater, as needed, probably for one hour a day while cutting back on other circuits such as ref., or freezer. Almost all circuits would be 120 volt and each connection would be made through a separate pug in at each appliance. The well pump, fridge, and etc. are already plug in. I would need to put a plug into the furnace pump line as well as the HW heater and my plan was to run dedicated wiring to each necessary appliance to be unplugged from the main power and then plugged in to the generator power.
I have, in the past installed a sub panel to my home wiring when remodeling my kitchen and bath. This would be a similar operation but remain completely isolated from the house until I unplugged each house circuit and plugged in the generator circuit.
I think this will work BUT can anyone give me solid reasons that it won't? I don't want to waste time and money if it's not feasible.
All comments and maybe even criticisms are welcome.

Good for you.

An 8500 watt is a pretty sizable rig, that should power the whole house if you are careful.

As such, I think it would be cheaper to get a transfer switch and just go in through your main breaker, and not run new circuits to where you think you need them?

There are simple ones that plug in under your meter base, -if- your utility accepts them. Here is an example with pic:

http://www.central.coop/products-ser...ansfer-switch/

Otherwise, a transfer switch on your main panel would maybe be as cheap as the route you are planning?

Paul

Rambler, if the figures I'm collecting are correct I can actually run Romex where I want it, install all of the plug sets I need and still save money over the cost of a transfer switch and the electrician labor cost of installation. Except for the fridge location everything is located in my, rather small, basement. No long runs of wire.
My real concern is learning whether or not there may be operational or safety issues with the plan that I have outlined. I'm hoping that a knowledgeable pro or amateur electrician can give me some insight. I'm not an electrician I just play one when I'm doing home remodeling. Everything I know and have learned has come out of books. It has stood me well but this layout isn't covered in any book.

In essence, you're running a bunch of extension cords to the appliances, with breakers on each cord. Sounds labor intensive, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Leave a light plugged into a regular outlet so you'll know when the regular power is back on.

I run my whole house on an 8.5kw unit, with the exception of the AC with no problems.

You can get a ten circuit transfer switch for about $300 to mount next to your current panel. That eliminates all the new wire runs, new second panel and breakers, plus you will have some wattmeters to manage loads. Also you won't have to unplug and move everything you want to power in an emergency. For me that convenience element would be worth something.

Yes, in effect, that's what it is. I was concerned to not overload the generator that's the reason for the individual breakers. Labor intensive, yes, but I'm working for myself in this so I work for free.
I can purchase Romex a lot cheaper than extension cords of the same gauge even adding in the plug sets. A breaker box, with breakers, can be had for $75.00.
I'm hoping that this setup will last for the long run and the only piece the may need replacing at some point would be the generator itself.
As far as air conditioning, I have two free standing indoor air conditioners and I would have enough juice to power at least one when hot weather hits as I would be excluding the furnace pump circuit.

It sounds like you are not listening to advice you asked for, but rather trying to justify your own set-up ideas.

It sounds like you are not listening to advice you asked for, but rather trying to justify your own set-up ideas.
The safety issue is that if you screw up, you could kill a lineman.

It is far easier to "load manage" with the proper transfer switch.
You just stand there and flip the switch on and off for what ever circuit you wish.
Far easier when you want to power (heaven forbid) a water heater making sure all the other loads are off.

Transfer switch . . hands down

a roll of romex around here is about 70 bucks, add 75 for a box and breakers plus your boxes staples cable clamps etc. you have to be pushing $200. I bought a older never used 10 circuit transfer switch for my son last fall on Crigslist for $150. You might want to check around a little? It sounds like you are comfortable in a panel, the transfer box is an easy wire right into your existing panel, you just pick which 10 circuits you want to have avialable on generator. If you ever decide to sell the transfer switch will add value, the homebrew setup will probably cause confusion.

Actually using the installation I describe there is no possibility that a lineman could be killed. I repeat; no possibility. Any circuit being powered by the generator will be physically separated from the house power supply. Maybe my description was not clear enough for you to understand. If thats the case I'm sorry.
Concerning your assertion that I am ignoring advice to justify my own ideas, that too is not the case. Having just purchased this generator I'm wondering about operating it on the 120/240 volt, 50 amp setting on a regular basis. Wear and tear on the generator is the unknown for me, not how to run or connect wiring.
I didn't want to make my post unnecessarily long but by way of background my main breaker box is full, I had to add a sub panel when redoing the kitchen and bath. In order to add a transfer switch I would have to add two as there are circuits I need to power from both boxes. Much easier to proceed along the path I had described.
Also, heaven forbid, (whatever you mean by that) the 8500 watts are more than adequate to power the HW heater as it is rated at 5000 watts.

The way you want to do it will work. You say all 15 amp breakers? Some circuits may require 20 amp breakers and of course you will run 14 gauge wire for the 15 amp circuits and 12 gauge for the 20 amp circuits. Volts X amps = watts so a 15 amp circuit translates to 1800 watts max but code requires a safety margin. I am not sure what the margin is so look it up. Say it's 20% so a 15 amp circuit may handle 1440 watts. If the total of all appliances on the circuit exceed the capacity you will have to go to the appropriate size breaker and wire for that wattage.

If you are going to put in special outlets for the genny, make them a different color. Easier to tell which is for the genny.

Most gennys don't put out clean enough electricity for some things. I know your computer printer won't work and may be damaged if you try to use it. Motors on tools may run hotter than normal. Some gennys, called inverter generators, generate DC electricity and invert it to pure sine wave AC current. This is often cleaner power than your utility provides and will power anything if it puts out enough power.

Electric motors draw 2 to 3 times the wattage to start than they use while running. If your genny can't provide enough juice to get them started, the motor will sit there and hum and heat up and melt. My little 3000 watt genny can't start the compressor or the table saw. If you are running other things and there is not enough power left to start a motor, say the well pump, then it could fry without you knowing.

Nimrod. I just generalized and said 15 amp circuits. You are correct that each circuit will be checked for load to determine correct fuse/wire size. You are also correct that the circuit safety margin is 20%.
I don't plan to load the generator too much or too often. When all is said and done I plan to err on the side of caution to try to protect the generator to prolong it's life. After countless hours spent wondering when the heat will come back on I know I will appreciate having heat and water when needed.
Also, good idea about the plug color and the info on clean electricity.

what happens when you trip on that spider web of romex . . .??

Like has been said----why bother asking for advice when your mind was already made up. . . ????

I don't know how you do things or what your place looks like but my plan is to run the wiring like any other, through joists and mount a breaker box to the wall, again like any other.
I started this thread to ask whether or not this installation has any inherent problems, safety or otherwise. From what I've read there seem to be none. EXCEPT for your thoughtful post reminding me what a mess I'm going to make stringing electrical cable along my basement floor. Thanks for your constructive advice.

Yea, didnt mean for you to get beat up on this.

I'm a simple dirt farmer not an electrician, so my view doesn't hold much water...

But your plan should work. I'm not sure if it is to code to have a plug in on a water heater or a furnace, might look at that.

I think the transfer switch would be cheaper and easier and allow others to use it but that wasn't your question.

Paul

I've developed a thick skin over the years so the trolls don't bother me.
As stated earlier a transfer switch isn't viable in this situation.
Anyone who wants to continue to use this setup will find everything in place and ready to use.
I'm also not too worried about anything being easier to use. With a transfer switch I would have to go into the basement, throw a switch, go outside, plug in the generator and etc. With my proposed setup I would just plug in the items I want to power as opposed to going to a box to initiate the transfer.

No problem with a gen plug and backfeeding it to the box if you are careful, any lineman worth his salt wont touch a powerline without checking to see if it has power. Secondly, there is now way in hell a 10k generator would put enough power to a line without tripping the circuit breaker...especially in my case (considering there are about 50 houses feeding off my same line)

My house has a main disconnect that I disconnect prior to plugging in the generator.

The whole lineman electrocuted this is way overblown...that would be like me crossing the street without looking both ways or since I never see cars at an intersection I cross daily that I assume there will never be cars and its safe to run the stop sign.

With common sense it can be done safely. When using my generator my entire home is disconnected from street power, when off that circuit is disconnected in my circuit box...all circuits are labeled and detailed instructions are written on panel box...an idiot could hook up my generator.

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>. an idiot could hook up my generator.

Perhaps one did.....


(Now, that was all in fun - it was too easy, you have to admit, to let that pass without comment?)

You started out with, a person only needs a little common sense.....

And there is where you lose far too many of the population, unfortunately.

I hope you take this lightheartly. I realize very many people do things the way you do, right or wrong.

Paul

Yes, common sense to run a wire to breaker box, and after that its almost idiot proof. I think most on here are pretty capable folks.

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Hi! I'm a licensed electrician with generator certifications from Briggs and Stratton. Your plan is overly complex. Why not just install a manual transfer switch for your main breaker and then you can use the other breakers for load balance/control? You can purchase all the parts (outside receptacle included) as a kit and have an electrician install it in an afternoon... I think you should definitely have a licensed electrician do the work since the work involves pulling the bubble on your meter.
PS. Make sure they are insured. Meters can explode.

The problem with back feeding isn't so much that it will fry the line man... Though that is what they tell people for some silly reason? The truth is that often there is a floating neutral, hot ground, or some other issue that we can't troubleshoot if someone is feeding power onto the line/ transformer we are trying to work on. We can't fix the problem and get your power turned back on until we figure out where that juice is coming from.

For your stationary appliances such as the water heater you could put side by side 2 pole disconnects, fused or not, and open or close each appropriately. The advantages are the visibility of the switch arms. Plus if you were to use male plugs, the one not plugged in would be live, with exposed prongs. Because when you hook both feeds to the AWH terminals, they are now parallel. I don't think plugs and sockets will last as long as being hard-wired either.
As far as the boiler and it's pump goes, you probably have a regular 15a light switch on it now. Just install another in parallel and make sure one is off while the other is on. There could be such a thing as a double rocker switch with a mechanical interlock to prevent both being on at the same time. I know there are 3 phase contactors, paired, with such a setup. Those were industrial; for a 600# washing machine and it was used to reverse the rotation cyclically.
A dual power distribution sounds ok to me, as long as you pay attention to any junction points between the two.

Yes, I will agree that this may be overly complex but why just do something when you can overdo it!
Concerning the meter connection, I don't know if that is used or allowed here. I never really considered that type of setup due to location of the meter on the house.

" Plus if you were to use male plugs, the one not plugged in would be live, with exposed prongs. "

That is easily overcome by using the female plug on the powered side. The item to be powered would use the male plug. That way no exposed live prongs.

Both feeds would have to connect to the stat terminals, no? When powered by house current the genny current should be 'unplugged'. They are in parallel, hence live. That's why I suggest 2 disconnects.

Like this => http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g3...ps9ee9adae.jpg

That's a very tidy hookup. Also a nice schematic.
My only concern with such an installation is the possibility of both switches being in the on position at the same time. You know that you wouldn't do that and I know that I wouldn't do that but would you vouch for the actions of anyone else? I know that I wouldn't.
Not being able to connect a transfer switch, simply, to the circuits I need to power has prompted me to build the installation that I have described. It will be physically impossible for power to backfeed or have two power sources in the on position at any time.
I've read the comments of those that dislike (hate) my proposal and that's OK with me as I really don't care.
I appreciate the suggestions and will employ all of those that I can.

There are pull boxes you can use for disconnects. Just leave only one insert in the area, and hide the other for a spare.

I have a 6 circuit transfer switch powering a sump pump, (110v)water pump,oil furnace, one half kitchen outlets, two bathrooms, and a living room circuit. I ran a No. 10 wire from the outside female plug box to the transfer switch. Plug in the generator, start it, and turn each circuit on one at a time after each surge. I also run an extension cord to my computer UPS. I have never heard of this happening, but my generator manual states it must be connected to the house ground or a seperate ground rod since the generator is grounded to the frame. If the generator faults, one could get electrocuted. Hooking up the system was breeze.

Why do people always feel doing the work yoursel , you are working g for free.

It's still labor and your time has value too.


Personally, I think it makes sense to do our own work, not for the cost savings, but for the knowledge of knowing the system and how it's assembled and functions.

If you use a transfer switch to energize existing circuits those are already grounded (hopefully) by a ground to a cold water pipe (copper).
If you run separate circuits ground it the same way by attaching the box to the copper cold water pipe. That way you need not buy the outdoor ground rod to pound down (not in my rocky yard) the required (not sure about the depth) 4ft.

I agree completely. I enjoy learning by doing. I would rather know how to deal with a situation rather than calling someone in to do deal with the situation for me. I know the kind of work I do and you never can tell what the outcome of a repair or installation will be when someone else does the work for you. Everyone has a horror story about contracted work. I do too but I won't go into it.
The reference to free labor was, of course, just a joke. It's an old one that we all use at one time or another. Having said that I will say that, as I am retired and on a fixed income, I consider my labor to be excluded from the final cost of whatever I do. Add up the material costs and I've gotten a good deal.

When I do work for myself, I write it up as a regular job invoice. Materials, Labor, mileage; all as if it was a regular service call. This lets me take advantage of exemptions in home owner's taxes. They haven't auditted me yet, Bwahahahahaha... :peep:

Charging mileage working on your own property eh? Just one more disreputable contractor.

someone's gotta run into town and get material....

Or do you use your transporter?

As another licensed electrician I agree with this post, and need to expand a bit. First your plan is not "overly complex" it's flat out ridiculous. You will waste days of your life, and significantly more money that the cost of a transfer switch to do something strange and of questionable value. You are proposing several serious code violations, and seem to want to argue with posters here who are actually thinking clearly and providing some rational advice. First, you don't clearly state that you understand that each circuit will have to be cord connected with two separate receptacles and circuits for normal and emergency power, INCLUDING 240 volt loads like the well and water heater. You will burn through $150 just doing this silliness to the water heater alone. Second a copper water pipe is NOT an acceptable ground, hasn't been for decades, it's a code violation. Third, if you are not at home, or incapacitated, in an emergency you will probably find that your generator goes unused, since few others will be capable of safely getting this mess up and running. Finally, when you do execute this dumb idea, please be aware of the massive liability you create for yourself. Double feeding the water heater without proper transfer protection? Great, until there is an accident or fire and the state and/or your insurance company starts to look into it. Want to know what happens after a fire when an insurer discovers bizarre, half-axed rewiring "science project" done by a homeowner who decide to invent a new way to run emergency power? Give it a shot.

BTW, in most installations I now use an interlock instead of a transfer switch. It provides a lot more flexibility to the end user, installs faster, and the parts are a lot less than a transfer switch OR the cost of the Romex you seem bent on wasting.

Thank you Wharton. I was trying to be nice and didn't think the individual had enough knowledge of the subject matter to even attempt a full explanation. That is why a contractor was my advice. I don't always recommend a contractor. I think people forget how dangerous bad wiring can be!

Come on now. You seem to be holding back. If you don't like the idea just say so.

No problem. When it comes to proponents of crazy electrical ideas here on the forum, I'm done being nice. Nothing wrong with having a bad idea, and even take the time to run it past the crowd here, but getting argumentative about doing something dumb, dangerous and illegal, sorry but no.

BTW, something was bothering me about the whole concept of unplugging a water heater, so I dove into the books a bit. As I suspected there are several angles any well versed inspector would take when red tagging this idea. First ,cord connected appliances are limited in amperage due to arc flash when disconnecting while under load. (typically 15 and 20 amp. 120 volt applications) Second, it is permanently installed equipment, not a portable appliance, and wired under such rules. Third, there is no listed appliance cord (dryer, range, etc...) labeled for use on a HWH. If that doesn't fill up the violations pad, we could head toward labeled and lockable disconnecting means, and a few others I certainly have missed.