EPA and your home made pond

joebill · #21 02/12/14, 09:34 AM

Heads UP......

This is the commerce clause on steroids. Just how much land do you own over which no water ever runs? I live in the desert, and during monsoon, we get sheet flooding over ALL of it, but if you happen to have a dry spot, which I can't imagine you do, THAT will be the spot where you can legally pen your goats or maybe take a leak after supper.

Of course, it's unenforcable, which is it's only blessing....Joe

Gravytrain · #22 02/12/14, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebill

Heads UP......

Of course, it's unenforcable, which is it's only blessing....Joe

Oh, you're wrong about that. It may be unenforceable on a macro level, but on a case by case basis, you better bet your sweet bippy it CAN and WILL be enforced. All it will take for you to get on the radar of one of these bureaucrats is to have the wrong party affiliation, the wrong bumper sticker, engaging in activities on your property that someone, anyone doesn't agree with.

A son-in-law of a local landowner hired a bulldozer to clear some brush in a lower fairly wet field. The bulldozer pushed the brush up into several piles and the son-in-law stacked some tires around the outside of each pile. The local EPA administrator was driving by and hollered for the dozer operator to stop and he walked up to the road to see what was up. At this time the son-in-law saw that the dozer had stopped and came to see what was going on. The EPA guy told him that he couldn't burn those piles and the son-in-law told him he could do whatever he wanted on his property and told the EPA guy to take a hike. The EPA guy calmly smiled and drove away. He came back the next day with a $30,000 fine for the actual landowner (the mother-in-law), and a $10,000/day additional fine for every day the tires were stacked up around the piles. Keep in mind, nothing illegal was done...the tires weren't lit. The son-in-law just ticked off the wrong bureaucrat...and the old lady had to pay a large chunk of her savings. Stuff like this happens every day, all over the country.

fishhead · #23 02/12/14, 05:41 PM

While it's true that bureaucrats can reek havoc on businesses and property owners it's pretty clear that what we are doing to the land is sometimes unsustainable and is the same as stealing from future generations or if you prefer 'putting it on THEIR credit card'.

I'm no fan of the government after MN DNR retaliation destroyed my life long dream fish farm despite complying with EVERY requirement but I'm also no fan of allowing people to 'dump' on the people downstream.

Gravytrain · #24 02/12/14, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishhead

I'm no fan of the government after MN DNR retaliation destroyed my life long dream fish farm despite complying with EVERY requirement but I'm also no fan of allowing people to 'dump' on the people downstream.

So, you'd rather have an unelected federal bureaucrat making the decisions of what you can and cannot do on your land? I think I'd rather decide those things for myself. If I'm going to alter my land in a manner that will impact my neighbors, then I personally would rather have a county official making those calls...you know, someone that you'll run into at the diner every now and again. I'm not saying that corruption can't happen at the local level too, but it's much easier to affect local government than it is a federal bureaucrat. Call me crazy, but I don't see many lucent decisions coming out of Washington D.C. these days.

Letting cow manure run off into the local trout stream is much different than building a lane in your field, or digging a ditch through a wet pasture....all of which will be subject to E.P.A. scrutiny. Be very careful what you wish for...

fishhead · #25 02/12/14, 07:39 PM

I've seen how local control works or doesn't work. It's hard to get someone to stand in the way of their brother-in-law or community leader even if it negatively affects people downstream.

I've also seen too many examples of people altering their land with no understanding of how it impacts others. Many times those impacts may not show until decades later.

Locally there was a landowner who clearcut their property and that resulted in the neighboring property flooding because the trees were no longer sucking the water out of the ground. That's not an impact that most people consider when they are making decisions on "their" land but it had a negative impact on their neighbor even without setting foot off their property.

rosehaven · #26 02/12/14, 09:15 PM

EPA is making laws which is unconstitutional. Agenda 21

joebill · #27 02/13/14, 09:35 AM

I'm sure it IS enforcable some places, which is one of the reasons that those places are losing population.

On the other hand, many areas are situated in such a was as drainage washes run closer together than 600 feet, thereby making entire occupied areas eligible to be plowed under and vast ranches and farms vacated.

The feds are on a balance wire. Every time they try to push too hard, they "wake up" various industries, especially ag, and especially in the West. A lot of it did not make the news (wonder why?...

) but I recall during the last sagebrush rebellion, in certain areas, feds could not park a truck on federal lands without somebody watching it or it would be either toasted or wrecked when they came back.

Several Western states are moving in the direction of repoing federal lands within their borders right now. It's a long road, but stuff like this makes folks want to turn in that direction with gusto. This is not the first time the EPA has tried to assert claim to all waterways and ditches, and the last time they tied it, it just sort of dried up (scuse the pun) and went away.

The local populace is not without powers. For instance, a particularly nasty local EPA gal in a certain New Mexico city who kept messing with the local folks had a sewer valve below her house get closed somehow and all of the sewage higher than her elevation somehow came up through her drains into her house. Tragic.

Ag is a force to be reconed with in the West, with some ranches holding over 500 square miles, and even little tin gods walk softly.....Joe

Ozarks Tom · #28 02/13/14, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rosehaven

EPA is making laws which is unconstitutional. Agenda 21

Rosehaven is absolutely correct, the Agenda 21 goal is to force people into micro-managed cities and clearing human habitation from the land. It's a stretch of credulity, but since your well is connected to an aquifer/water table, and the EPA writes it's own rules concerning those, what twists of logic will be put into regulation regarding tapping into "nature's" water supply? They've already devastated huge areas of California's agriculture to save a 4" fish.

There are several civil remedies to address someone devaluing your property already in place. Do we need some EPA bureaucrat, a lifelong member of the Sierra Club, deciding what you can do with your property?

Forerunner · #29 02/13/14, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebill

I'm sure it IS enforcable some places, which is one of the reasons that those places are losing population.

On the other hand, many areas are situated in such a was as drainage washes run closer together than 600 feet, thereby making entire occupied areas eligible to be plowed under and vast ranches and farms vacated.

Don't think they aren't aware of this.....and that it isn't part of the goal....

Quote:

The feds are on a balance wire.

Ag is a force to be reckoned with in the West, with some ranches holding over 500 square miles, and even little tin gods walk softly.....Joe

Those semi-powerful land barons are few, and far between, and homeland security knows where they live and when they sleep.
Make no mistake as to how far the gap between "ruling class" and "citizen" has spread in recent months.

Until those AMERICANS who are persecuted in one particular area are stood up for by those AMERICANS in areas not so (seemingly) heavily regulated.... none are safe.

Living in Illinois, and having stood my ground, thus far, against all odds and OUTSIDE of the will of civil government, it bodes not well with me to have AMERICANS in other portions of the country thumping their chests over their perceived illusions of liberty........

When the lightly shackled Nebraskan is willing to sacrifice for the tightly-bound in New Jersey, simply on basic principle, we will again have some slim hope of American liberty.

So long as it's looking out for #1, coast to coast, we will continue in this free fall.

ABSOLUTELY no offense intended to you, Joe, but the basic premise had to be laid out.

fishhead · #30 02/13/14, 01:33 PM

Regulations are the alternative to letting people finish destroying what is left.

There will ALWAYS be people who want to drain the last wetland or dump their polluted water onto the guy downstream. Sometimes it's because of ignorance. Sometimes just plain selfishness.

davel745 · #31 02/13/14, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishhead

Maybe they are trying to control the runoff that is destroying the huge area in the Gulf called the "Dead Zone" that is the result of poor land practices upstream.

I am willing to bet the dead zone is from the oil spill and that this is a cover up.

65284 · #32 02/13/14, 02:00 PM

fishead, it's the gross OVER REGULATION that folks object to.

joebill · #33 02/13/14, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forerunner

Don't think they aren't aware of this.....and that it isn't part of the goal....

Those semi-powerful land barons are few, and far between, and homeland security knows where they live and when they sleep.
Make no mistake as to how far the gap between "ruling class" and "citizen" has spread in recent months.

Until those AMERICANS who are persecuted in one particular area are stood up for by those AMERICANS in areas not so (seemingly) heavily regulated.... none are safe.

Living in Illinois, and having stood my ground, thus far, against all odds and OUTSIDE of the will of civil government, it bodes not well with me to have AMERICANS in other portions of the country thumping their chests over their perceived illusions of liberty........

When the lightly shackled Nebraskan is willing to sacrifice for the tightly-bound in New Jersey, simply on basic principle, we will again have some slim hope of American liberty.

So long as it's looking out for #1, coast to coast, we will continue in this free fall.

ABSOLUTELY no offense intended to you, Joe, but the basic premise had to be laid out.

No offense taken, either, but if you were the lightly shakled nebraskan (or new mexican) and observed how eagerly the average hevily shakled Illinoisan marched to the cattle-call of slavery, how eager would you be to sacrifice yourself for his benifit? I was born and raised in central Il, and left for that very reason. Most folks seemed to live for more regulation and more government, and i had about as much luck making myselof heard there as you do now.

To paraphrase the old saying......"when in Rome, get the heck out!....and don't head for Pompeii "

I have come to believe that in the coming crunch, some of the states will actively resist takeover by the feds and some will not.

At any rate, I rememmber the ditches back there, running down both sides of every road and street and alley, city and rural. Houses nestled in between, with nary a dwelling far enough from one to avoid federal control. Sometimes there is such a thing as far, far too many targets. THAT is what I mean by "unenforcable".....Joe

Forerunner · #34 02/13/14, 07:09 PM

Now just imagine, Joe.....if you had stuck around, and we might have been neighbors.

What a headache we could have been to the civil minions, together.

Incidentally, my nearest neighbor is a mile away......the next being a mile and a half.
Breathing room is ample.

joebill · #35 02/13/14, 09:40 PM

I'll save you a seat out here! You may need it......Joe

fishhead · #36 02/14/14, 08:41 AM

The Dead Zone is from too much nitrogen flowing down the Mississippi River from poor land use practices upstream. It's existed for decades.

The Zone moves around the Gulf and kills everything in it's path if the fish and shrimp aren't mobile enough to stay ahead of it.

rambler · #37 02/14/14, 10:18 AM

Part of the dead zone is from natural wetlands. Wetlands are the natural bowls of too much material decaying and making over rich peat bogs. In heavy rains, these bowls overflow and wash their nutrients downstream.

Ag practices of the 1950s through 70s added to it for sure.

Fertilizer prices since the 1990s and much better farming practices, as well as the regulation we have in the past 30 years, has greatly reduced the effect man has on the dead zone.

The dead zone is a slow deal, it takes time to flush out, but we are no longer adding to it as we once were. In any event, it will always be there.

It is how the Louisiana delta was formed, long before us humans populated the Midwest.

We have laws governing how we can till hills.

We have laws governing how we can tile land.

We have rules on how to fertilize.

We have laws on where livestock facilities can be located.

We have laws on where manure and how manure can be applied to the land.

Me, I have 20-25 head of cattle. I need to fill out paperwork ever 4 years and get a permit. I need a plan on what to do with the manure.

To tile the fields here, I have to go to 3 separate agencies and get permits from all 3.

If my hills are too steep, I would need to do a HEL compliance. That is Highly Erodible Land worksheet. I would need a plan on how I keep soil erosion from happening on those hills.

Nitrogen used to cost 5 cents a lb, one would pour on more just in case you needed it. Now a days, it is closer to 50 cents a lb. We also understand better how much different soils can hold, and how to apply it in small amounts several times in those types of soils that can't hold it.

It has been my understanding the dead zone is actually phosphorous as much as nitrogen? That is where less tillage because of GMO crops, and farmers holding on to their topsoil much better is keeping the issues down.

All counties in Minnesota are currently going to a 17 foot buffer strip along each side of man made ditches. Us farmers will be required to sell off that strip of land, and keep it planted to a filter strip of grass. Dad and I have had a 30 foot strip on both sides of the ditch since the late 1970s already, so I don't like giving up my land. But I like the point of it.

Anyhow, on and on.

My concern is an office in Washington DC is going to tell me the best way to farm, the best way to manage the soil I have out here? I don't think that is a good thing. I think that office will fall prey to the city vs rural folk, and be the whipping boy of 'there we did something' by passing green laws to appease the city folk, while hurting the rural folk. But nothing useful to man or nature will actually be done.

Just more rules, more regulation, more paperwork, more taxes and more fees.

I don't think this is about helping the environment.

Paul

fishhead · #38 02/14/14, 11:26 AM

This looks like a pretty good source of info on the Dead Zone in the Gulf.

http://serc.carleton.edu/microbelife...one/index.html

MO_cows · #39 02/14/14, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishhead

The Dead Zone is from too much nitrogen flowing down the Mississippi River from poor land use practices upstream. It's existed for decades.

The Zone moves around the Gulf and kills everything in it's path if the fish and shrimp aren't mobile enough to stay ahead of it.

It is not a problem that is best solved by over-regulation and some bureaucrat in DC trying to micro-manage a farm pond in the midwest. It's an education problem.

Also, a lot of the natural wetlands that filtered the Mississippi before it enters the Gulf have been drained, filled, etc. It's not just what is coming from upstream but what has been done to nature's filtering system. Again, another round of oppressive regulations isn't going to help that.

Don't under-estimate the ability of nature to heal itself. When that oil spill happened in the Gulf, I thought it was toast for my lifetime and possibly many more. It has recovered better than I ever believed possible.

jtsummie · #40 06/09/14, 09:54 PM

Saw this YouTube video and thought if this thread.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...pa-regulation/