Propane

Seems to me a business owner should have the right to sell to whoever they want at whatever price the market will bear. If some outside force, like a government, wants to insert themselves into the allocation of product, they need to do it as a buyer and fully compensate the business at market values. If they, by force, make the owner do something that costs him money, they need to compensate him for that lost opportunity.

Unless a law is made, no. Now, I realize that a law was created to give them this power, and that is where I take issue. This kind of action should at least have to pass the normal lawmaking process, schoolhouse rock and all that.

I have empathy for those people, but no guilt. There are alternative fuels to do the job available. Most places have laws that electricity can't be cut this time of year, even if you cannot pay now, and payment plans to catch up later. For farms, diesel torpedo heaters aren't that expensive, and can bridge the gap. Layer up, close off rooms you don't need with push pins and blankets. Cut unnecessary expenses, like cable and eating out, to help pay the extra cost if needed. America has lost it's independent and pioneer spirit, in favor of voting themselves comfort. Self sufficiency and self reliance are values that are going the way of the buffalo.

Or the millions that are now ow income and can't get refills or get refill to a partial amount and that is not a national emergency. Yes it is and it IS the government that has the responsibility to make sure Safe in their homes and being without heat is not being safe. I myself applied for and received a energy assistance payment that will help me pay for higher lots higher then normal electric bills. What a nice feeling that was to see my electric bill instead of 180+ this month was only 29 bucks, and next month may be even lower as the one time payment is spread over 3 months the highest in heating costs. Sure I do Propane and that propane is paid for from the rent I pay but i heat a lot with baseboard heaters to supplement the propane usage so I don't run low on the stuff. Yes this is a national emergency for million throughout this country this year. And very glad to see at least some governmental agencies coming to the rescue. This is not a 3rd world country where the government could care less, at least not yet anyway. LOL

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The Interstate Commerce Act has been federal law since 1887. Emergency powers to compel private carriers to deliver or prioritize delivery to interstate customers have been on the books pretty much since our country started. This isn't some hokey dark-of-the-night executive order or some such.

And to be clear, the FERC didn't decide to do this all on their own... the National Propane Gas Association requested they exercise their legal power because they hve been unble to meet customer demands and the shortages and weather doesn't look to be improving anytime soon.

Millions of people potentially freezing is an emergency. It's no different than shunting extra power to NYC during the heat wave or extra water to LA during a drought.

And, really, it's not like they've commandeered his pipeline without compensation... they just told him to prioritize propane deliveries to the MW & NE over non-essential shipments of dilutents. He's still getting paid and not being asked to do anything he doesn't already do, he just had to make some scheduling changes.

I'm a supporter of free market capitalism and don't want a nanny government who oversteps their jurisdiction whenever possible... but FMC doesn't always work on a nationwide scale when there is a crisis and this particular power IS established, prudent and within their jurisdiction.

Can't get refills, or can't pay that much for propane? There is a difference. At that cost, the person can buy 2 $15 space heaters and go on a "budget" electric plan like you describe, spreading the cost out. Why won't they? For the reasons I stated above. Why be personally responsible when instead they know the government will force unsound business practices like partial refills on small businesses, as well as making people like ME pay extra in taxes.

I'm troubled by the government subsidizing heating costs.

IF there is going to be a government program I would prefer that the money go towards better insulation. Better insulation will reduce heating and cooling costs for a one time payment. Subsidizing heating costs for people is a recurring cost to taxpayers that is literally money going up the chimney.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

I'm sceptic even of that. In Milwaukee those on assistance would run their heat high, but cool off by opening windows instead of adjusting the t-stat. Why be responsible when the real grown ups are footing the bill?

That makes me feel a little better, but I still worry about that kind of power, especially if I am footing the bill to make the company whole. There is also the fact that in 1887 people were more independent than they are today.

I really didn't want to get too political, and I don't want people to freeze. I just think these days it's too easy to be useless. This is probably an emergency, but the knee jerk "I need a bailout" is sad. People should at least try to make it on their own first. REALLY try. That isn't asking too much, no matter who you vote for. I'll leave it at that.

I agree that people should try to make it on their own first, and I'd probably be offended if they'd done this back in December when it first started... but the shortages, price hikes and bad weather have been going on for over 2 months now, so I think most other solutions have at least been explored if not executed.

It would seem that a reasonable action to be taken to mitigate the propane problems would be to get more storage. I currently have a 500 gal. I'm pondering a second one. I can usually make it thru the winter on that but it seems to be tough some years. I never want to buy at this time of year. I own my own tank so each year in the summer, I will make calls to each of the propane companies in my area. I tell them I own my tank and I'm shopping for the best price. I can usually get it for less than $2 a gal. This last summer it was $1.69 per gal. It always interests me that the swing between the prices can be up to 50 cents a gallon. And it is not the same people at the top and bottom each year.

Yes really 2 months!. In my part of WI. Dec. and Jan were the 9th coldest on record since record keeping started back in 1883.~!
And now it is going on into Feb. With temps going down -15º and -18º on Sunday night and Monday night. With MAYBE a little break come next weekend. But that is another week off.

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The forecasts that far out have been skewed for over a month. About a week out warmer weather will be forecast, but when the time comes it's just as cold. Then the next week looks better, but no, still cold. I'm beginning to wonder what Spring might look like!

I hope people upgrade insulation and fix air leaks etc this summer, a wise investment

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"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
Upton Sinclair

I pity the fool
Mr T

Well, we're almost out. Hubby is too worried to hook the 500 gallon tank up that HSAs 30℅ left in it. Company won't be delivering until later this week or next, maybe adding in a charge for the tanks being empty - though how are you going to not go dry when they're the ones delaying?

If the national propane association wanted to get propane in the pipelines over other materials all they have to do is pay more than the other industries. Capitalism is based on supply and demand, the pipeline owner deserves to get paid more for the use of his pipe in high demand situations. Sure it would raise the price of propane up over the short term although, If there was more money in owning pipelines there would be more pipelines and hence would be no shortage. This is what happens when the government steps in where they shouldn't be allowed.

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U.S. Constitution -10th Amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I don't see this as much different than the government suppliying energency aid in the face of any natural emergency. A tornado hits, the national guard provides security and cleanup help. I've seen government helicopters dropping hay and feed to cattle stranded in deep snow. Water was distributed by government entities to the people affected by the chemical spill in WV. I'm not asking the government for free or reduced priced propane. I'm just happy that they have some ability to relieve the supply bottleneck.

Well in essence you are getting subsidized propane. It would be one thing if the pipeline was taken offline for some reason but it is still flowing, just flowing with other materials that apparently has paid more for the use of the pipe. Like I said, if propane paid more I'm sure the pipeline owner would give them priority. Yes, it would raise your current price of propane but in the long run it would keep prices low due to plenty of pipeline capacity.

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U.S. Constitution -10th Amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

And in essence ranchers have gotten subsidized transport for the feed for their cattle thus subsidizing beef prices. The government exists, in part, to react in extraordinary circumstances. My opinion is that this qualifies. It is also my opinion that this reallocation is among the least intrusive ways the government can act to aid in this situation.

I have some questions. How many pipelines are there in the US and who owns them? I read that propane came into the US on the east coast from foreign country/countries this year, is this true? I think everybody that is physically and/or financially able will be taking any possible steps to prepare for winter in 2014/2015 but those steps vary with each person's ability. What doesn't vary is each person's need to know/understand ALL the factors that went into making this heating season one we'll never forget...

do the people who's land the pipelines run across get a cut of the action when the fees for using the pipeline go up?

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"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
Upton Sinclair

I pity the fool
Mr T