Animal Dignity
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/14/op...pgtype=article

hope the link works.

It does.

Scary.

Paul

Thanks for posting the article. It was good to find the link to the new website "The Dodo For The Love Of Animals" in there. https://www.thedodo.com/

Caring people who have genuine understanding and empathy with animals will relate to many of the animal stories at that Dodo site.

Of course animals have emotions. Dogs laugh and cry. And they grieve and remember. When a dexter cow died, DH put her in the tractor bucket and raised it up until she was picked up. The bull hated that tractor bucket. He would snort and paw the ground at it.
I just hate to see things go off the deep end.
I am all for preventing suffering in farm animals, that is a disgrace how we allow meat to be raised and eat it without batting an eye as to the suffering involved. One reason why we raise our meat.

Um... yeah... I raise my own animals and I am trying to get to a point I don't have to participate in buying from big ag because I care about how animals get treated. But these city folks are insane. I'm sorry, I might very well like many of the stories and much of the content on that Dodo site but I'll never be clicking there because I cannot support the mentality of places like that.

I care about my animals, I care that they have good lives and are well kept and meet their ends as well as it is feasible. I don't even understand how whether animals have emotions or not is even a debate but I won't say that animals are equal to or greater than humans. Well meaning people will be the death of us all.

To me, a cat that looks up while licking nether regions to ask "What? What are you looking at, fool?" has a lot more dignity than most PETA people.

Man is an animal, just slightly smarter than the rest.

Our dog knows that whenever we go upstairs, it's time for her, to want to go outside to, do her thing. :rolleyes:

Yah, I more or less share that perspective. I think that animals are here for our use, but that they deserve to be treated fairly throughout the duration of that use.

I'll even go so far as to say I will not eat octopus because I think they are too intelligent to be used as food. Also porpoise and other cetaceans and gorillas, not food animals because of their intellect. Chimps I would never eat because they possess all the negatives of humans without the positives and they disgust me too much. (and yes that is my opinion but I am repulsed by them so horribly I cannot describe how vile I feel and think they are... unfortunately some humans make me feel the same way)

Jerry Clower does a funny bit about a guy that hunts coons with a dog and a pistol toting monkey. One of the locals wouldn't let the monkey in his truck, " Creeps me out, looks too much like folks." Funny stuff.

It is the responsibility of humans to care for all animals, to have dominion over so to speak.
But we are a slippery slope when we raise animals up to humans. Because it was never intended to be a level playing field with humans and Hedge Hogs as equals.

But beyond the reported intents, there is a motive. A developer wanted to buy a chunk of ground in New York, near Central Park. Very valuable land. Currently it is stables for the carriage horses of Central Park. Suddenly a 501C3 Non-Profit Group is formed to "protect" the horses by eliminating their jobs. I guess this way they can roam free on the open plains? So, the first order of business for the new Mayor is to outlaw carriage rides in Central Park. So, the land will soon be available for further development.

Is it the developer that formed the non-profit group?

Often times difficult to connect the dots, but a worthy contributor to their cause.

These guys can't stand a creepy old monkey, either.

I love it when people blast something they quite obviously haven't even read. I also love when someone sees a story that might be about animal rights and assume its "city people" and that they are "insane". You don't have any idea of the mentality of either the story or the Dodo site, because you have not read either one. Blindly criticizing something you haven't even bothered to look at , is just as bad as PETA and the things they say.

You really believe Man is the smarter one? The dogs and cats here all get their monthly allotment of food and snack rations but they never pay for it and they all get 10 to 14 hours more sleep a day than I do and I set aside an afternoon nap for myself. :rotfl:

The article is an editorial opinion reflecting on a growing trend in the U.S. toward the awareness of the complex thought processes, and the intelligence of animals. The scientific findings shouldn't come as a surprise, most of us living among not just cats and dogs but pigs and cows and goats and chickens.... I don't think any of us that walk our pastures can ignore the obvious. The article doesn't make a case for equality.

There is always some rumbling when something disturbs our status quo. History records what we have done to those who dare disturb our worldview, It takes a long time to assimilate a difference. We live in the foothills of monstrous facilities where animals are raised in barbaric conditions: look at Tyson or Smythfield. Walmart is the nation's leader in food sales, receiving 1/3 of the U.S. food budget. Because food is cheap there. It's gonna take a while to dig ourselves out of this mess.

I hope it inspires readers with confidence and makes a case for urban market gardens to include neighborhood hens and dairy goats. I hope inspires people to take weekend drives to the rural neighbohoods to purchase honey and goat milk soap and learn how they can purchase the meat of humanely raised livestock. It is a battle at the homefront waged against corporations which have usurped local economies leaving a trail of unemployment, poor health and massive suffering. The emerging local agriculture, is the leading edge of sustainable farming and humane treatment of livestock.

And why not extend our compassion to those who will be waiting in line at the slaughterhouse? They are God's creatures too. To reduce animals to unthinking, unfeeling "units of production" is not only barbaric, it s is insanity. It is a mirror of the moral and ethical compass of our nation, which bears a striking resemblance to a dollar sign.

As long as we believe that "barbaric conditions" are the norm, those spinning the stories will have control.
In my experiences, I've seen commercial hog operations where pigs were kept in far better conditions and care than 9 out of 10 backyard attempts at farming. Your experiences may differ.
The same can be said for most commercial poultry operations, but since they work to keep them healthy, you can't wander around in one. That leads some to fill in the blanks with their anti Big Ag agenda.

Yes, I do have an idea of the mentality people have who elevate animals to equal or more than humans. Animal 'rights' and animal 'dignity'? Those are things to devalue and dehumanize us, not to lift up the animals involved.

Some years back when I was a research assistant at a major university we were doing a study on getting hogs bred back earlier than they typically would be. The goal was to increase farm productivity in small scale operations. Did a lot of comparisons in terms of how they were set up, feed, control groups, etc.

Not surprising, the groups that turned out the best (comparing a number of factors such as weight gain/ rate of feed conversion, illness, conception rates, rate of live birth, etc) were the ones that had much more freedom of movement than what you will find in most large commercial farrow to finish operations. In many of those operations the hogs go from birth to market and their feet never touch the ground.

Our best groups were sows that had individual pens to farrow in rather than a farrowing crate where they can't even turn around. We had guard boards up along the sides so they didn't lay on their piglets - but not surprising the experienced mothers rarely had such issues anyway. They had a run out where they could get some fresh air. There was a boar housed in each "wing" - so the pheromones were there to get the sows to cycle back in earlier.

Commercially viable on a large scale? Not likely. Too labor intensive, not enough animals per square footage of the building. Healthier, happier and more humane? Absolutely. Commercially viable on a smaller scale? You betcha. It's why I try to buy local from folks I know.

I have a friend who raises beef cattle. I asked him one day about an older cow he had that he was having trouble getting bred. "I suppose you'll be sending her down the road then..." He leaned back and took the cap of his head and scratched his graying hair a little. "Well, I suppose I can keep her a little longer." My eyes spoke the question. Then he told me about the calves she had given him and how the sale of those calves had helped pay the mortgage and put shoes on his kids feet. "I know her...and I owe her." Nuff said.

That's the sort of connectedness you find in smaller operations that the larger ones just can't offer. I think there was a certain dignity in that for both of them.

Having a conversation about these things is good. Then we can make informed choices. Being humane and recognizing the value of treating other living creatures in a humane manner doesn't make me a person with some agenda to do away with animals as food and it doesn't make me a control freak wanting to tell others what to do. It simply means that I try as best as I can in my own small world and in my own small way - to live a mindful life. To be aware by choice.

To me, some things are just wrong. Like keeping killer whales in what to them is a bathtub. I think doing so dehumanizes us. In my belief system we are to be stewards here on earth. It doesn't mean I am elevating animals to "human" status. It's not an all or none thing. I'm not a vegetarian. But I think I would have to be blind of heart and soul to fail to notice there is "somebody home" when I look in the eyes of a dog or a horse or whatever.

Just sayin'

"hogs go from birth to market and their feet never touch the ground." You mean they are on concrete their whole lives? Right? Or by a few years back you mean they were on elevated steel mesh? Wow that's a ways back in time. You mean their feet never touched dirt?
I have no argument with your story, just didn't want folks thinking they spent their 7 months on earth in some sort of hammock.

LOL. You're joking, right? I doubt that anyone sensible would imagine something as far-fetched as animals living out their lives suspended in hammocks. :teehee:

well I saw the Angora rabbit fur video and it was pretty harsh (rabbit ended up naked and bleeding from the harvesting) I do think people should know- and make their choice... me-- no angora thank you (not that way anyways).... I thank my 10 yr old for showing me the video....

I just have to say... i heard Mark Levin speak out against horse slaughter as if horse where some magical creatures--- not understanding at _all_ what the lack of a meat market did to devastate the horse market in general or how because of that lack of a bottom floor good horses were left to starve.

City people have no business whatsoever in saying how the rural works. They do _not_ understand the practicalities involved and they sure as rat behinds are not offering to pay anyone's mortgage when things aren't just all rose colored and peachy.

You've never had a discussion with a group of animal rights folks then, eh?

Heck, 'Beyond Beef' is illustrated, with about that very drawing almost as you say......

Many comments in this thread are very sensible, middle of the road.

But the animal rights crowd..... Phffft.

And unfortunately they have the media's ear....

Paul

NO, NO, NO !! WHY?

If you haven't seen this already this will crack you up. Blaze says no! when it's time to do his kennel thing. :hysterical:

No! :peep:

I admit I haven't.

But I've had plenty of discussions with many inhumane and omnipotent minded arrogant folks who believe in insanely unreasonable human rights for themselves but decry any kind of humane rights or dignity for animals.

I think the one type is just as senseless as the other.

Karma will get them all. The animals will come back as sensible humans and the senseless humans will come back as meat animals for them.

Phffft.

I tend to think that a huge part of the issue with agriculture and husbandry in the United States is that our low achievers are pushed into careers in large scale farming. "Oh, you can't do algebra? Go back and drive a combine, or take a job in the slaughterhouse." I think that a lot of people in those careers don't have the level of education and intellectual development required to empathize with their animals or their customers. Have any of you ever read Joel Salatin's book Folks, This Ain't Normal? There is a chapter where he talks about this and explains how the Jeffersonian idea of the intellectual farmer is dead. I truly believe that most of the evils in those industries are the direct result of short sighted people with small minds making important decisions on behalf of the industry.

Joel Salatin actually makes a comment in the book where he basically asks whether or not we want our food produced by high school drop outs or highly educated professionals. I'd certainly prefer number two, and I am also noticing that trend in the region that I live in. I know two young men who will likely inherit their medium-scale family farms that are currently working on bachelors degrees in agriculture. My wife went to school with a woman that is going to take over her large scale family dairy farm. In the meantime, she got a PhD in animal science. The landscape is definitely changing and that is part of what is going to cause shifts in the way that farmers think and how they treat their stock. Until that happens, I will keep raising my own chickens, get some goats, and buy everything else that I need from local farms that I can trust.

I'm not an animal rights activist. I do not believe that animals are entitled to most of the rights that humans have. I do believe that they deserve to be treated with respect for the duration of their service to us.

I have a master's degree and know for a fact that I couldn't climb into a combine and make it work!
A college education doesn't necessarily mean you are smart (just persistent) nor does it automatically make you sensitive to the needs of animals.
Somebody who will beat a hog that's not moving fast enough is just mean and will beat that hog whether he/she is educated or not.

Yeah because a high education leads to the development of empathy? How on earth do you come by that assumption?

I think you need to be educated. You obviously have a callous disregard for people who acquire knowledge and wisdom in a way other than some institution of 'higher' learning. If I cared to I could bring up a list of horribly evil people with higher educations and brilliant people without them. However, if you were interested in such information you could easily find it yourself.

I'd just like to post a link to a site that I think is most awesome: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/

Animals have no rights. We do, however, have the duty/responsibility to properly care for them.

My uncle received his AS in Agriculture in 1947, my grandfather was college educated as well (along with my grandmother) all were dairy farmers. To insinuate that all farmers are uneducated is ridiculous.

So farmers are stupid dropouts that don't understand how to care for the soil, their equipment and especially their livestock? So, who is guiding these backwoods hayseeds as they continue to increase soil fertility, break crop production records and create a meat market that is in demand all over the world? Humane standards of care have never been higher. But when you think of farming, all you can think about is someone pitching a dead baby pig in a manure pile. Someone must be evil, so it might as well be people you know nothing about.

By the way, my grandfather was head herdsman for the beef program at Michigan State University in the late 1940s. Their cattle were National Champions for many years, often based on bloodlines he helped develop. He taught many classes of students about animal care, animal genetics and never finished high school. :bash:

Want to learn what is going on with humane treatment of livestock, today? Read any of Temple Grandon's books. Agriculture has taken great strides in humane treatment of livestock. If you don't have time for a book, rent the movie about her life.

Thank you. You have very eloquently said someting that might have come right from my own heart. It shows that there is a place, without you or me or them, but just a place of "live and let live". Just kindness for its own sake.

The greatest example of animal cruelty that I have ever seen is at no kill Animal Shelters. Folks that believe that housing hundreds of cats in cages is best for them. virtually impossible to avoid upper respiratory problems. Eventually the Shelter fills up and stop accepting pets.

I am the third generation of 'professional' ranchers, raised on the ranch my grandfather homesteaded. I grew up watching my grandparents and parents feeding cattle from haystacks with a team of horses and a bobsled, in temperatures that varied from zero to 20-below, not factoring in wind chill and chopping ice out of the creek so they had access to water. Not when it it was convenient, not when they felt like it, but every single day of the year whether they were sick or not ... and I've done the same myself ... including feeding horses, carrying water in buckets and cleaning stalls when I had pneumonia. I wasn't in the hospital, so I did chores.

This is what I saw growing up and still see today with 'professional' livestock people ... which is one reason the heavily slanted PR produced by the PETA (and other animal rights organizations) infuriate me so much. I would be much more tolerant of those organizations if I did not know what a small percentage of their income goes to humane societies and rescues that are trying to actually help animals in need.

I would be much more impressed by a video of one or more of their corporate officers out in a MT blizzard in March, hunting for a cow that had slipped away to calve. I'd like to see them bring that cow and calf into the barn, then spend hours rubbing the calf to warm it up, milking a range cow that's never been touched since branding for milk and feeding the calf to get the necessary colostrum down it ... without anyone else to help. That is the kind of PR that would impress me.

I would like to see this too. :) Its a shame PETA enters into discussions of animal ethics. They've caused so much suffering with their rhetoric and "ethics". No extreme is ever good but the lines were drawn on this thread very quickly. Why can't this be a discussion of common interests and common goals? Say, for instance, if someone doesn't agree with "animal rights", which somehow has been given prominence with a definition that is not even implied in the article or this discussion, the posts themselves show there is a middle ground of compassion and sensitivity. That is what I see anyway; the ways in which we create a common ground whether we argue about rights or hurl alphabet sticks.

There is not really a sliding ruler that adjusts the meaning of the word 'rights'. Rights are different from conservation and stewardship. Animal rights are used to devalue human rights and they get a bunch of well meaning silly people to buy into the campaign. Just like all those buffoons signing petitions to ban water if you can convince them its an imminent danger or they have no heart unless they do what you say, uninformed people cave.

This is where my attitude and that of the animal rights activists diverge. I do not believe that animals have "rights" themselves. I do believe if you own an animal, you are obligated to care for that animal in an adequate, reasonable and non-abusive manner. If you can't do that, your "right" to own an animal should be terminated.

Where the big division seems to be is what "adequate, reasonable and non-abusive" care should be and I'm not sure there is any way to bridge the gap between what a professional working rancher sees as adequate care and an urbanite whose only exposure to animals is via TV and moves sees as adequate care.

There are many extremists and crazies that are labeled animal rights groups and these are generalized to include any attempt to introduce the word compassion into a discussion about food animals. It's hard to use the word "rights" in these discussions. It is a trigger word and a fallacy a priori unless it is spelled out for all to understand what "rights" means.
I think a majority of people agree that animals should not be made to suffer needlessly, should not be deprived of movement, of grooming or other behaviors that are in its biological make up. I think people believe sustainable farming is more than a buzzword and that it includes sustainable animal husbandry,not recyclable/ renewable methods but sustainable ones, which make sense to our planet and to our well being as a people. How SFM used the word "rights" also makes sense.