We have 5 acres, yes a hobby farm. But we could make money if not for all the State and Feds regulations. DH would still need his job, but a little extra money would be nice. None of my kids have any interest in the farm, I'm still working on the Grandkids. Now we just supply eggs and veggies to the kids.
When I got out of college, a hog would bring x amount of dollars, and I wanted to farm and I thought pigs would be profitable.
Almost 20 years later, when I was no longer broke, I looked at the cost of pigs again and they were going for the same price! The cost of land had gone up and inflation had happened but pigs still brought the same amount. I penciled things out and if I bought land and raised pigs the best that I could do was to break even.
I think that THAT is what is hurting the small farms: when looked at in real dollars the price of farm products has dropped, while the cost of machinery and land has not.
I suspect that the "small farms" of the future will be those of us who own small amounts of land, and who eat most of what they produce and sell small amounts of what they do not. Because if we owned larger parcels we would work harder for no increase in income.
__________________
i went to the woods because i wished to live deliberately to front only the essential facts of life,.......,and not,when i came to die,discover that i had not lived...Henry David Thoreau
this is not for everyone but its a solution for many especially on small holdings and steeper grounds where conventional equipment wont work.
__________________
i went to the woods because i wished to live deliberately to front only the essential facts of life,.......,and not,when i came to die,discover that i had not lived...Henry David Thoreau
When I got out of college, a hog would bring x amount of dollars, and I wanted to farm and I thought pigs would be profitable.
Almost 20 years later, when I was no longer broke, I looked at the cost of pigs again and they were going for the same price! The cost of land had gone up and inflation had happened but pigs still brought the same amount. I penciled things out and if I bought land and raised pigs the best that I could do was to break even.
I think that THAT is what is hurting the small farms: when looked at in real dollars the price of farm products has dropped, while the cost of machinery and land has not.
I suspect that the "small farms" of the future will be those of us who own small amounts of land, and who eat most of what they produce and sell small amounts of what they do not. Because if we owned larger parcels we would work harder for no increase in income.
Precisely. When a brand new 100 horsepower tractor could be bought in say 1976 for around 4000 bushels of wheat, and the equivalent tractor today, costs, 25 000 bushels of wheat, it tells a strong tale. Smaller farms were fine and feasible when all you needed was maybe 100 bucks a month to survive. Now a days it generally costs much more simply to survive. Small farms are fantastic. But they are difficult to make a decent living on anymore. And from one part of the country to another, the word small means less an acreage size. Small in my mind, and in this question, is more related to earning power. A chicken farm on 5 acres can earn more revenue than a 2000 acre grain farm.
Around here it's almost impossible to afford a small farm to raise livestock only for yourself. The cost of feed will make that beef or pork more costly then buying the same amount of meat from the grocers. Only difference is you know it will be tastier. But when I was growing up you raised your own to save money, not flavor. You can't do that anymore. If you want to save money you will have to have a operation big enough to buy feed by the ton and not by the 50 # sack. By the sack will cause you to go broke.
In Vermont we have a lot of small farms succeeding - both at the level of people raising food themselves and those who are farming to sell food. Our family farm is a small farm. All of us work on the farm, no outside jobs. Our primary farm product is pastured pork. We work to have vertical integration as much as is feasible. The more we take on in the line from providing our own breeding stock to feed to processing to delivery the more we cut out the middle man which means we make more money per pig.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W. Smith
When I was a kid, there were at least 4 local farms that were in the dairy business all within 3 miles from where I grew up. All of them had milk cows.
Lots of local dairies, and other, farms around here. In the areas that I have observed losing farms the biggest problem has been that the places get built up, the real estate taxes soar and the new neighbors don't like living near real farms. Even with the adjustment for agricultural land the real estate taxes are too high. Farm and forest land should not be paying any school taxes (80% of the local tax bill) since they don't contribute children to schools. Only homes should be taxed for schools. Taxes and high real estate costs are what has driven a lot of farms out of business around the country.
We farm land high up in the mountains. Rocky, steep and not desirable for development. That keeps the value and the taxes somewhat down but the taxes are still unreasonable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MO_cows
I would define "small farm" as having less than $100,000 per year in gross sales of what they produce.
Gross? 100K? Since most farms, and most businesses, only keep a small percent of the gross you are suggesting that farmers be happy with earning only $5,000 to $10,000 a year. That is way below poverty. If you want to see more small farms then small farms must be able to pay. Setting the threshold that low is absurd. I would suggest a much higher Gross figure rather than demanding that farmers must live in poverty. Even the FDA recognizes up to a $500,000 gross as being a small farm. That would yield only $25K to $50K in take home pay.
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Originally Posted by sammyd
A farm is a business. If all you want is to stock your own pantry you are not farming.
Bingo.
If you're gardening or keeping animals (stock) as a hobby then you're gardening.
If you're gardening and producing a significant portion of your family's food and fuel then you're on the homesteading end.
If you're also selling so as to provide a significant amount of your family income then you're farmsteading.
If you're mono-cropping or just doing a few crops or stock but not providing much of your own food then you're moving into the farm end.
Technically this would mean we fall somewhere around farmsteading since we have a variety of plants (mostly grown for the livestock) and livestock (our sale item), can or do provide almost all of our own food and get virtually all of our family income from our farming. We treat our farming as a business. It is our family business. The bacon pays the mortgage. And more.
It's a spectrum with lots of tangles. Little is pure except at the extremes.
We try to support local farmers and ranchers by buying local as much as possible. If it weren't for them the only food we would have would be what we could grow (not much) or buy at Walmart (not very good quality). And if anything throws a monkey wrench into this country's energy, financial, or transportation systems (ever more likely) Walmart won't have much on their shelves for long. So when the people down the road a ways have vegetables to sell, we buy them. And if I don't kill and elk in the fall, we buy a steer from a local rancher and take him to the butcher ourselves. And I keep trying to become a competent gardener.
I agree that only by doing as the 2 vids shows, and other things like it will small farms survive. I would try it IF I could SEE it being done, but likely never will. At 66 I likely have another 10 or 15yrs ahead of me on the farm, and tjhey will be likely steadly declining as to how much and what I can do, so, theres not much reason to try to do what people in their 20s/30s 40s are doing.
In my area smaller (acreage wise) farms have survived by filling smaller niche markets. One of them is to sell shares on what they would normally bring to farmer's markets. Once the produce is ready for picking people can come and collect their "share" of that week's food. They buy in at a certain price and get a certain % of the crop. In good years they do well and in poor years they do poorly, just like the farmer does. In other words, they share the risk and the reward. The steady income helps the farmer out in years where there is poor weather. I know of several of these arrangements and for the most part they have worked out pretty well. I would think the farm would have to be within a reasonable distance to enough city people to make it work. Some of these folks do eggs, chicken, pork, beef, etc on shares as well. Often enough one person works the farm and the other has outside work.
I think the devaluation of the dollar has had an impact, too. That and margins are so darn tight that in many instances you have to be large enough to push through enough volume to be profitable. One dairy farmer I know got out of it because he said with the price of milk he had to either get bigger or quit - there was simply no profit for those with smaller herds. He said he was just too old to get bigger.
Some long decades ago I taught population genetics at an Agricultural College in a large university. We were having this same conversation way back then. The students were primarily of two types - those who planned on going into management for larger corporate farms and those who were trying to get the education they needed on management practices in order to squeeze every penny and make their margins. They needed every edge they could get and were basically trying to save the family farm.
To survive as a profitable farm and not just a homestead people have to think outside the box. One person I know was supplying lamb and beef to a variety of restaurants in the city. He had to have his stuff processed by a USDA certified facility. The cost was eating his margins so he decided to get USDA certified himself. LOTS of hoops to jump through, but he did it. It made the difference between being a full time couple farming and having to have one person work outside the operation.
One person I know was supplying lamb and beef to a variety of restaurants in the city. He had to have his stuff processed by a USDA certified facility. The cost was eating his margins so he decided to get USDA certified himself. LOTS of hoops to jump through, but he did it. It made the difference between being a full time couple farming and having to have one person work outside the operation.
That is the approach our family is taking. We are almost done building our own on-farm USDA/State inspected meat processing facility (e.g., butcher shop, smokehouse, slaughterhouse, etc). This will allow us to keep more of what we make from each pig and to sell more of each pig such as rendered lard, soup stock, etc that we can't do now. We take pigs to butcher weekly and deliver to stores, restaurants and individuals. The processing costs us 30% to 60% of each pig depending on what is done (slaughter, butcher, smoke, sausage, etc).
Bringing the processing under our control and by us doing it will reduce the cost to a small fraction of that and give us more security. It means we are more profitable without getting bigger.
To me, what you describe is a "hobby farm". If you only produce food for your personal consumption, it is a hobby. Unless somebody gifted you with the land, equipment, livestock, etc., you made money from somewhere else and spent it on your farming hobby.
I have to disagree with you.
What I do, what Nick and I are building, is not a "hobby" farm (gah, I really dislike that term).
We are building a way of life. So we only have 20 acres - so what? We are doing our best to utilize what we have to build a sustainable life.
To call it a "hobby farm," to dismiss the production of one's own food as a "hobby" is really incorrect.
And funding our land with money we earned elsewhere doesn't lower us to "hobby" status. How many people are able to get established on any land without earning the funds first?
There's just something sticks in my craw about people terming the very hard work we (and others like us) do as a hobby. Just because we have to be off-farm for now doesn't make our backbreaking work somehow less valid than those who are only working the one job (i.e. farming).
A business is about intent, as compared to a hobby. The IRS wants to see demonstrations of intent. They used to want profit 1 of every 3 years, then 1 of every 5 years, and finally now, they have even waived that requirement.
Run a business with intent to profit. Produce and sell your product, if your sells exceeds your expenses then great! If not, that is okay too. Maybe next year.
We rarely show a taxable profit. But we are not engaged in hobby.
What I do, what Nick and I are building, is not a "hobby" farm (gah, I really dislike that term).
We are building a way of life. So we only have 20 acres - so what? We are doing our best to utilize what we have to build a sustainable life.
To call it a "hobby farm," to dismiss the production of one's own food as a "hobby" is really incorrect.
And funding our land with money we earned elsewhere doesn't lower us to "hobby" status. How many people are able to get established on any land without earning the funds first?
There's just something sticks in my craw about people terming the very hard work we (and others like us) do as a hobby. Just because we have to be off-farm for now doesn't make our backbreaking work somehow less valid than those who are only working the one job (i.e. farming).
Sorry you are offended by the word "hobby" applied to your homestead. I understand, there are some commonly used terms that make me grit my teeth, too. Just know that it was not meant to be demeaning.
__________________ It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with the simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong.
Laura Ingalls Wilder
Sorry you are offended by the word "hobby" applied to your homestead. I understand, there are some commonly used terms that make me grit my teeth, too. Just know that it was not meant to be demeaning.
Nah, I'm not offended. I can find lots of stuff over which to be offended.
I just disagree.
I didn't think you meant to be demeaning, I just wanted to be clear about my subsistence farming (thanks, Lazy J!)
I desperately want to have a farm. We're just so flat out broke from failed college ventures and student loan payments, we can barely afford the apartment we're in. I cook a lot, I'm learning to can and sew. I grow in containers on my little porch. It's all I have. I'm doing even more with it in 2014, but I'm still very limited. I can't feed anyone, it can only be a pastime.
I want to at least have a small animal dairy and meat thing going, goats and sheep. I'm seeing how multipurpose yaks seem to be, and that's appealing, too. I want to have abundant permaculture fields/forests, for both my animals and my family. I want to grow my own hay, and have a little farmstand to sell my extra goods. I don't want to make tons of money. I just want to live simply and naturally, and I'm willing to work my ass off for it.
So, there are young people who do want to be farmers!
...anyone want a young-ish couple under their tutelage?
I desperately want to have a farm.
... I want to at least have a small animal dairy and meat thing going, goats and sheep.
... I want to have abundant permaculture fields/forests, for both my animals and my family. I want to grow my own hay, and have a little farmstand to sell my extra goods. I don't want to make tons of money. I just want to live simply and naturally, and I'm willing to work my ass off for it.
So, there are young people who do want to be farmers!
...anyone want a young-ish couple under their tutelage?
In my area, the regional Organic Certifying agency also runs an Apprenticeship / Journeyman program.
Anyone may apply to apprentice on one of hundreds of local farms. Work on the farm, planting, tending, harvesting, and selling at a Farmer's Market. Live on the farm, and earn a 'small' stipend.
Each year you may rotate to other farms, to learn how others do things. Or form a partnership to buy-out an existing farm.
At around the third year, if you have not bought your own farm by then, you become a Journeyman, and at placed as a Farm Manager on a commercial farm.
If you still can not find a farm to buy for yourself, then they will connect you with a farm to own for yourself.
What I do, what Nick and I are building, is not a "hobby" farm (gah, I really dislike that term).
We are building a way of life. So we only have 20 acres - so what? We are doing our best to utilize what we have to build a sustainable life.
To call it a "hobby farm," to dismiss the production of one's own food as a "hobby" is really incorrect.
And funding our land with money we earned elsewhere doesn't lower us to "hobby" status. How many people are able to get established on any land without earning the funds first?
There's just something sticks in my craw about people terming the very hard work we (and others like us) do as a hobby. Just because we have to be off-farm for now doesn't make our backbreaking work somehow less valid than those who are only working the one job (i.e. farming).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pony
Nah, I'm not offended. I can find lots of stuff over which to be offended.
I just disagree.
I didn't think you meant to be demeaning, I just wanted to be clear about my subsistence farming (thanks, Lazy J!)
one day all that will matter is that land you and nick are working on and that day is coming sooner than later.
__________________
i went to the woods because i wished to live deliberately to front only the essential facts of life,.......,and not,when i came to die,discover that i had not lived...Henry David Thoreau
__________________
i went to the woods because i wished to live deliberately to front only the essential facts of life,.......,and not,when i came to die,discover that i had not lived...Henry David Thoreau
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