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I posted this on the Ranch's Facebook page this morning.
"I want to talk about supporting your local farmers. If you want them to stay in business, you have to buy from them. Most jobs don't live or die at the mercy of the weather. A bad storm can be cause to stay inside all day for most people. For a farmer, it can ruin months of hard work. Two years in a row, we lost our entire crop because our trees went into bloom, and then we had a snow storm. That killed the delicate blossoms. Our orchard didn't earn anything for those two years, 2010 & 2011. This year, we had an extended heat wave, that caused half of our crop to fall out of the trees before we could open. We are now sold out of what few apples we had left. In a good year, we should still have apples into November. When we are able to open, we don't get rich. We earn enough to help defray SOME of the costs of owning the ranch. But not nearly all of the costs. The ranch is a labor of love for us. One day, while I was at my stand, helping customers in one part of the orchard, a group hiked in to another part of the ranch that isn't visible from where I was. They came prepared, with bags and backpacks. They filled them with apples, and snuck back out without paying. If I did hear their voices, I thought it was my paying customers talking. I have photographs of them. I showed the photos to locals, and got the name of one of the individuals. I turned the photos over to he Sheriff, and told him I want to press charges. The state of California recognizes that thefts from farms jeopardize our vital food supply. Farmers can't be in all places on their farm at all times, so new programs have been developed to help protect farmers. And stricter penalties were enacted for farm thefts. The people reading this have liked Stetson Creek Ranch's page. Most have been customers, and some come back year after year. Thank you so much! Your support helps to kept us going! But for those who want to enjoy the fruits of our labor, without paying, technology has changed. You will not only end up paying for the fruit you steal, but will have to pay penalties, and there will be a record of it. Plus, the people who have seen the pictures know why I was asking about them. People who know you, members of your community? Was it worth it?" Sent from my iPad using Homesteading Today |
Well OP - you got a lot of suggestions - my unbiased opinion is that JoePa's suggestion was the best - :peep:
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Well, they have been forewarned. My vote would be for big dogs, but going to court works too.
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Always start with police help because if something unfortunate happens later down the road, you are on record as taking civil steps first.
Also, I would place a sign, apples have been sprayed with toxic DDT or something to that effect. Seriously tho, the problem is two fold (trespassing and stealing) but originates from the trespassing so solve that with the police. The cam was a good idea for court if it comes to that. |
Man.. you are a lot more patient and tolerant that I am.
The law is the law. Trespassing and stealing is against the law. It is the job of the police to enforce the law. You don't have to deal with these people at all. Let the police deal with them. I have 10 acres and a similar situation where I cannot see or hear what is going on on the perimeter. The cameras are a great idea. An idea that I will be adopting as soon as I move out to my land is trip-wire alarms. Trip wires can be hidden in underbrush and are not strong enough to actually "trip" anyone, but can rigged to set off an alarm.. like an air horn. Maybe something like this.. http://youtu.be/Vt_ZATda2XU |
Those alarms would probably go off every time some critter such as a raccoon, skunk, possum, or other animal happened to stroll by. And you can't expect the police to solve your problems. Get the evidence on your own, turn it over to the police or file suit. And 3 stands isn't much to stop anyone. I would turn it into five strands and definitely charge it to make it unpleasant for anyone to cross, like someone said. Good luck and don't take this behavior!
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Negative post.
You would need to apply some thought of your own to make it work for you. Example: Place the trip wire higher up off of the ground so small animals do not trip it. 1) You cant expect the police to solve your problems 2) Turn evidence over to police. These two statements are contradictory. Yes, collect the evidence and turn it over to the police. That is the solution. The trip wire solution does 2 things. 1) Alerts you to an intruder. 2) Alerts intruder that they are detected. |
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Old tale: Farmer was having trouble with people stealing his watermelons. He placed a sign in the field stating that one of the watermelons had had posion injected into it. Next morning his sign had been edited to say that 2 watermelons had been posioned. He had to destroy the entire crop. |
I won't say too much here but just wanted to let you all know that inquires are being made within the camp's organization. The camp director should be coming under some scrutiny and his boss is being involved. The fact that local law enforcement is now involved is good and might cause those higher in the organization to take particular notice and do something internally to rectify the problem.
I know, I'm over 2000 miles away and had never heard of Common Tater before but something in this thread pushed my buttons. It's not right what's happening and what has been happening for a long time and it's one time when I think maybe, just maybe, there's a tiny chance that I can actually do something to help. It's gonna take a few days to work through the channels but please know that it has begun on the other end. I can't guarantee how those higher ups will respond. I don't know them and they don't know me. But at least we who think this needs to be fixed will be heard as we're making "noise". Sorry I can't offer anything more just yet. It's not forgotten. And I'm trying, along with a few others who have taken an interest. |
Thank you all for your responses. And Bellyman, thank you for looking into this for me. When we bought this ranch, we set out to make friends with all of our neighbors. Or at least be friendly strangers. There is supposed to be give and take in relationships. With this one neighbor, it has been take and get taken.
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"it is the job of police to enforce the law"???? You honestly expect them to stake out the place and catch trespassers? Get real. CT you have been given lots of advice, but do NOT count on the police to catch trespassers. And trip wires set above the ground will not work, believe me. I think you have more common sense than that. Good luck and let us know what happens. |
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I don't expect the Sheriff to stake the place out. But we do allow him to hunt the property, so he may be there anyway.
I called and asked if he had seen the emails. He is on vacation. I would rather wait for our friend, the local Sheriff that is assigned to the area and knows everyone, than to turn it over to someone from out of area. He knows us, he probably knows the lady identified, and probably knows the other members of the party too. But he doesn't need to stake the place out. I'm hoping that word will get out locally that we are enforcing the law on trespassing and theft. Since we know who one member of the party is already, I've given her name and phone number to the Sheriff. Also, there is a farm theft task force that he is trained on, and at least locally, he is in charge of the program, I think. 99% of thefts by people hiking in that end if the property will dry up when our neighboring camp gets the word out to their campers that they aren't to sneak over and steal from us. Remember, that a big part of our problem is that employees if the camp were actually sending their campers over. Another big part was that their campers who have gone to our ranch for many years to pick apples, had been coming over to our ranch since the SDA organization owned it. And never changed their behavior when it was sold. And a big part of the problem is that I talked to camp management a number of times over the years, asking them to tell their campers that the ranch had been sold, and please refrain from hiking over there. To my knowledge, they never spoke to their campers to tell them not to hike over. I never got a commitment from anyone at the camp that they would notify their campers. I had written and printed up a notice which I asked them to put on a bulletin board for their campers to see. I don't know if it was ever displayed. I made up flyers for the campers, telling them that we were open You-pick? It had a map to our place, by road, I listed our hours of operation, and offered them a 10% discount if they told me they were from the camp. The employee (guy in charge) I spoke with handed the flyers back and told me they wouldn't be interested In my apples if they had to pay for them.....and that is the one truth that is at the root of this whole problem. I was trying to do something nice to get them to change their approach, but my offer of a discount was rejected because it meant they had to pay. I don't want anyone arrested. I don't necessarily want anyone publicly disgraced. I want the members of this large organization to either pay for their fruit just like everyone else, or leave us alone. Bellyman is going through the organization from within, to see if someone higher in the SDA organization can get the attention of the folks running the camp. I appreciate that, and hope that it will work. But if it doesn't, I've provided the Sheriff with the photos, and the name of one of the most recent group. I think that his job will involve paperwork and issuing a citation. I don't think it involves placing anyone under arrest and reading them their rights, but once word gets out that there are consequences for stealing from us, that the stealing has given the camp, and the organization a bad name, that people are having to pay penalties, etc. the attitudes over there will change. Even if they decide they hate my guts and will never buy my apples because if it, that is an improvement over them not only not buying, but stealing from us. After the Sheriff had taken whatever action he will take, I will send a letter of demand yo the good doctor, giving her 30 days to pay up, or I'll sue in small claims court. California requires a thirty nay notice before they let you file the small claims action. And when word gets out, we will get yo sell our apples, rather than having them stolen. Sent from my iPad using Homesteading Today |
Tator, you could hire Captain Dreadlocks as a security guard.:rolleyes:
Where is your sense of adventure? |
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Just curious...I think I would demand it all, and the law would probably support you on that. If she thinks that's unfair she can be responsible for collecting from everyone else involved. |
I plan to make a point of the ongoing theft problem, but for this group, charge for what I can see that they personally took.
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When I send the letter, I will ask for the names of the others, but I would be stunned if she complies. In fact, I would be stunned if she doesn't just pay the bill. So here is another question: How do I determine how much to ask? Here is how I charge for my apples. Any of.the very few apple orchards in Southern California sell 1/4 peck bags, and possibly 1/2 peck bags. No larger. You can't walk into one of them and buy a large quantity. They also charge an entrance fee, per person to get into the orchard. They escort you into the orchard and tell you which tree you may pick from. And they stand there and supervise. It is all grossly expensive, and to my way of thinking, quite anal. And this would also make a family outing to pick apples far less enjoyable. Those orchards are about a 45 minute drive from our ranch. We are a small orchard out in the boonies, without real competition, surrounded by National Forest. So while I drive to the other apple community before I open to see what they are charging, chat, catch up on news, etc. I do charge slightly less for the 1/4 peck and 1/2 peck bags than they do, but pretty close in my by volume pricing. The people who buy those tiny amounts are just doing the agritourism thing. In the fall, they pick a small bag. Enough for a few fresh apples, or a pie. But I also sell Pecks, and half bushels, and bushels. And the larger amounts are for folks like us, who like to can up applesauce, apple butter, make pies, dehydrate, and have fresh apples for eating. I have no basis for comparison on how to price those, so I graduated my pricing so that when they buy the larger amounts, they get a better deal. My pricing this year was: 1/4 Peck $7, 1/2 Peck $12, 1 Peck, $17, 1/2 Bushel, $25, and one bushel, $40. Some of my HT friends from areas where you-pick orchards are plentiful, are probably apoplectic over these prices. But those orchards probably weren't purchased at Southern California real estate prices. They don't deal with California taxation and regulation. They probably don't have the cost of living prices that we deal with every day, and the cost of doing business issues and costs thst we have. This year, 25% of what we earned will go just to pay for our liability insurance, without which, we couldn't open at all. I have the very expensive 1/4 peck, 1/2 peck, 1 peck and half bushel bags. They account for about 1/20th of what we earnin income. That, plus, we are a one of a kind place. The views are absolutely stunning! Folks come here, have a great time picking organic apples. Many bring picnic lunches and make a day of it. They can have a fabulous day with the family, pick a bushel of apples, have a picnic lunch at the table we have set up, and do all this for less than they would spend to take that same brood to the movies. At $40 per bushel, the apples are less than they would spend at the grocery store. Less than a dollar a pound. Today I was in a Wal Mart, and the cheapest apples they had were Red delicious, at $1.49 per pound. There weren't organic, like my apples. We don't even know what year those Red Deicious were harvested. They can keep for up to 3 years in cold storage. By comparison, my apples are fresh off the 101 year old trees, fresh, tasty. Organic, and fabulous! Old varieties, that my customers remember from their childhood. Red delicious are some of the least flavorful apples there are. The better tasting varieties were more expensive at both the grocery store, and at the other apple orchards in So. Cal. And this was Wal Mart. Not a Mothers Market, or some other store thst charges a great deal of money for organic yuppy chow. Let's say I saw these folks hefting out approximately a bushel. If a paying customer were to come to me and ask for a bushel, pay for it at that time, they would pay $40. However if I were to sell thst same volume of apples to 16 customers, who bought 1/4 peck bags, and paid for them at that time, I would receive $112 for the same bushel. If I take the good doctor to small claims court, do I charge her the same price as the honest customer who bought a bushel? Or do I charge her the higher amount that would have received from a different group of customers who bought the smaller bags? Then there is the other issues related to trying to find out who my trespassers/ thieves were. There was a trip into town, 14 miles round trip, at least an hour for that trip and time asking around to determine who was pictured. Time spent preparing the email to the Sheriff, getting the pictures, checking the trail to see if it was still properly marked, etc. I will also spend time carefully wording a letter to her. Of course I will ask for my actual costs to have her served. If I do have to file in small claims court. And those costs would also be included. I'll add up my time at the end. I'm trying to figure out what I should ask for. This is very different than a transaction with a customer who presents themselves and tells me what they want to buy. Pays, gets the pre-measured bag borrows a long handled picker, picks their apples and leaves. Most folks are there for half an hour or less. This has occupied a LOT of time and energy. What would you ask for in small claims court? |
Thieves get no 'special' consideration . . . they are after all . . . thieves!
Charge them at the higher rate or whatever your normal "customer" would purchase. Do you sell more 1/4 pecks than bushels? Than it would make good sense (and in this case dollars and cents) to charge at the higher rate since you have lost those potential sales from the thieves who emptied your inventory before you could sell it. Of course, you are in California and tales of how your justice system 'works' are legend throughout the rest of the country. Personally, I'd do a comparison for EVERYTHING (apples, labor, time spent & running this all down) put it together professionally and present it to the court seeking full compensation. Let the other side object. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Who knows . . . maybe the court will decide to make an example out of them and you win big time. If not, then it was to be expected and life goes on. ETA: Just because the court decides in your favor, doesn't necessarily mean that you've won anything. There is still the big question of how to collect. Might be a good time to call up pre-paid legal and pick their brains on this entire matter. |
Copperkid3, I sell many more 1/4 peck bags than bushels. So I'll ask for that price.
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Here is an interesting article about farm thefts in California, from the NY Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/22/us/22crime.html?_r=0
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DH put up battery powered monitors along our driveway and plans to do the same later with two entrances to the farm that are out of sight of the house. The receiver units are in the house but could just as easily be at your stand. One of the monitors even has a hand held receiver that I carry when I'm in the garden or barn so I will know someone is approaching. These work over a radius of a few miles so might be helpful since each monitor can be programed with its own tone that tells you where the incursion is occurring.
You definitely have been far too patient. I think I would send a copy of your info to CA's medical licensing board because the woman doctor can be stripped of her credentials if she's prosecuted of theft, most assuredly if she's convicted. And she's no lady, don't give her that much credit. Good luck getting a good resolution. |
MOgal, could you please post a link for the cameras?
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Unfortunately . . . even if that was true . . .
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Oral agreement/arrangements aren't worth the paper they weren't written upon!:bash: Would you "just take my word" if I offered (verbally), all the oil, gas and mineral rights to a piece of property that I have for sale in the middle of the Marcellus oil shale reserve? I firmly believe that you would INSIST that your lawyer put such a clause in writing, in the contract. So far as we can tell, there has been no evidence trotted out from the camp, of any such 'promise'. |
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The camp knew that the trees were going to be destroyed, so before the transaction was completed, they dug up 12 of the nicest trees, and transported them to the camp and planted them there. One of the reasons that the conference center was never built, was that part of the zoning requirements was a secondary exit from the ranch. Due to terrain, there was only one option. The old pioneer road out the bottom of the property. The buyers of the ranch approached the camp, ie. The sellers, and asked if the secondary exit could be down the pioneer road as far as the camp, then through the camp to the highway. The camp said no. I believe lawyers were involved and as described to me, it was ugly. The owners of the ranch and he camp were hostile toward each other at that point. Anyway, plans for the conference center were scrapped, and the place sat vacant for several years, until Hubby and I found it, and bought it. So no, there was no agreement to allow camp people come over to pick apples. |
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Any agreement with the previous owners wouldn't matter anyway...it's been many years and the camp has been informed many times that any such agreements (if they ever existed) are no longer in effect.
In the demand letter, I would definitely ask for the highest price. You might also add on a land use fee. Not sure if that could be enforced in small claims court, but it's worth a try and would cover some of the apples they've stolen without being caught. Maybe for the future post signs along the fence announcing a $500 per person per entry "back entrance fee" that will be charged to anyone not entering through the official entrance during normal business hours. |
CT, since DH researched and purchased the unit, I asked him to respond to your question. Feel free to pm if you wish. Here's his answer.
The alarms are made by Dakotalert.com but you can buy them from other sources. I got mine from Homesecuritystore.com. They have different kinds but the one you would want is called MURS since it has a longer range than the others, up to 2 miles. You can get the transmitter with a handheld receiver or a desk top receiver. The handheld may be best if you are out of the house. The problem with the infrared sensors is that they signal when anything crosses the beam from rabbits to humans. They do have sensitivity controls but you would have to experiment with them to get the setting correct. Each receiver can track up to 4 or 5 transmitters so you can have extra sensors around your place. Each sensor can be set up for a different zone and the receiver will tell you which zone was tripped. |
I want to add, we had a title search done. Other than a power company easement, no other access was granted to anyone. A previous owner can't encumber future owners on an oral agreement, although we've had others try to argue this to us. Between us and the highway, there are Forest Service lease land cabins. Some owned by the descendants of the people who built the cabin. Several of them told us that it was okay for them to sneak in and pick our apples, because their ancestors knew the folks who planted the orchard in 1912. The big difference is that the cabin owners would sneak in on the road, and had to come right past the house. We could see them and hear them. None of them have snuck in for many years now. Some come when we are open and buy apples though. But the folks from the camp sneak in to the far end of the ranch, and unless they make a great deal of noise, or come much closer, or we are down there when they enter, we don't usually know they are there.
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................I haven't read where you have actually filed charges in this case , and I'm left wondering Why ! Besides , you should have already filed a claim in small claims court , why are you waiting ? , thanks , fordy |
As to what you charge , check with the courts to see how your local small claims work. They might have an established cost system in place. Like charges for filing, loss of potential or interference in your sales etc.. Might help you in the recouping of your loss, aggravation, etc..
Unfortunately you can talk to them all you want, but for a lot of people they only listen when it affects their pocket books. Good luck. |
Does Cali have a law allowing a victim of theft to make a citizen's arrest? Might be something to consider.
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I admire Common Tater's patience with all of this and am kinda glad she's not jumping the gun to do something quickly but rather thinking things through. The sheriff will be involved, and that's a good thing. There are a lot of "he said, she said" things that would be very difficult to being evidence of in a court of law but there are actual photos that are pretty hard to explain away.
Whether or not the camp director is directly telling people to trespass is hard to establish without actual testimony from someone who has trespassed because he specifically told them to, under oath. Possible, but I have my doubts that will happen. It's also possible that there are people using the camp as a parking place while doing their misdeeds that do not have permission and the knowledge of the camp director but are familiar and just do it anyhow. (As a for instance, there are a lot of church members who could go into their own church and do some cleaning or decorating of the social hall with no one even noticing they had come or gone.) I don't know all the details but the situation IS being looked at from the other side as well. Don't construe what I've said as being in any way supportive of any of the wrongdoing. And I am all for prosecuting the offending parties. Stealing is wrong, no matter who is doing it. Bringing evidence in court can be a step beyond as there needs to be some type of physical evidence though I believe most judges would at least consider what they believed to be credible testimony. It's a messy situation. And as a member of the general body of believers that's in question, I want to see this resolved justly and fairly for all concerned with those who have done wrong required to make restitution and the offenses stopped for good. Just saying... |
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I think I might be inclined to charge her for the apples along with a hefty "unauthorized entry" fee/per person in the group. Just a thought.
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Bellyman, you may be correct about SOME of the folks driving to the camp, parking there and hiking to our place. And those would be folks who'd previously hiked over from the camp while camping there, otherwise they would have no knowledge of our place. They wouldn't know it existed, they wouldn't know how to get to our place, and they certainly wouldn't be bringing bags to carry apples in.
It makes me wonder, why the camp allows people to drive from the highway, through the camp. Past the lodge and business offices, Down to the bottom of the camp, without anyone asking where they are going or why they are there. Aren't they concerned about theft and vandalism? Aren't they concerned about the safety of their campers? They have all kinds of groups there. What if they had a children's group camping. Wouldn't they want to check out the stranger there to find out what their business is? Wouldn't they want to know of it was a pedophile? That camp is private property. They have a right to know who is there, and ask those without legitimate camp business to leave. I think they owe it to their campers to control who had access to them. They have a right to restrict access to areas where people have no business going. This happened in Oklahoma many years ago, but it shows what can happen at camp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahom..._Scout_Murders On the flip side of that same coin, we don't allow people to drive through our ranch, park at the bottom so they can hike over to the camp to steal from them. What would the managers of the camp think of us if we allowed that? Would they be a tad unhappy with us? In fact, we installed a driveway alarm. So now, if someone is driving down our road, we are already standing outside by the time they get to the house. We talk to them to determine what they are doing there, and if they don't have legitimate business with us, they leave. Just a thought. But there was a murder at the camp a few years ago. It was one employee murdering another if memory serves. So the camp isn't Immune from violence and crime. Another thought. Last year, Christopher Dorner's murderous spree ended at Seven Oaks cabins. Only about a mile and a half from my ranch as the crow flies, and just a little farther than that from the camp. Did the folks at the camp pay any attention to who was driving through the camp when he was on the loose, and believed to be in those mountains? Perhaps the camp would have better control of their property if they installed a gate with a numeric key pad just below the lodge. Better yet if there was a camera above the keypad, that got a photo of the face for the person punching in the number. There is a large parking lot there, so folks seeking access to the lower areas of the camp wouldn't be blocking the road. They could allow access to the rest of the camp to people with a legitimate business. But if someone were to ask for access, but either not want to say why they want access, or that they just wanted to hike to our place for apples, perhaps the camp employee they were asking would realize that those folks are up to no good, and ask them to leave. Just for the record, my customers, who buy my apples only drive down our road. Anyone who hikes in for apples, is doing it to steal them. There are a lot of people out there who believe it is better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission. So many of the folks who play dumb when caught committing criminal trespass and theft, wouldn't do it if they had to explain to someone what their intentions really were before hand. The camp could practically eliminate apple thefts from our place if they were to put in the gate and camera that I suggested, and they would protect their own interests and eliminate a lot of their own problems too. |
I did not read the whole thread, but heres my take and I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice but my understanding of the law.
The camp is creating a "private nuisance" as such can be brought to court. Send a cease and desist letter. Then follow up if it continues. That is File a formal complaint with all grievances as well as remedy's you require. I know laws vary state to state but most times you need to be able to show that you took reasonable and necessary actions to prevent such activity. but I do rember seeing you said you had a 3 strand fence, so I would assume that would suffice on that matter. When you talked to the management did you have a witness? If so a notarized statement should suffice. Document, Document, Document everything! Even if it seems trivial! |
Thank you downhome, I'll read up on that!
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