Planning your path to Self-Sufficiency, Long-term

Planning begins by sitting down as a couple and spending an hour together evaluting wants and needs. If it isn't written down it didn't happen. Then involve kids on what your goals are as a couple and how it applies to them. Review every six months and if you aren't getting positve movement towards your goals them they were not important enough. At that point re-evaluate goals and priorities. If you cannot fund for yourself now for retirement the kids should not get their post HS education paid for. This might mean no junk foods, a camping vacation rather than Hawaii, not eating any pre-packaged meals etc. Put your retirement goals above conveniences.
Do not assume that because appliances are more efficient that the costs will be less. Often repairs are more $$, occur more frequently and the life span is less than something you have already paid for and is installed in your home. All you are doing is "saving the enviroment".
Your property if at 20 acres now needs some stock on it. Any fence can be torn down later if you think it has reduced the value before a sale. Put up hoog wire with a wire strand upper for 5 acres of it if you are farming the rest. If you are wanting a mower to mow more than 1/2 acre get a good fence and put goats on it.

Just a thought.. maybe some of your kids won't want to go to college... Saying a person has to go to college is buying into the main stream thinking we're all being sold... College is just big business.... soooooo..... maybe your need is your want concerning college... I did fine without college until I decided to get an associates in my late 30's...

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Never let your fear decide your fate!
Kein Mitleid für die Mehrheit

It's pretty hard to comment not really having a feel for where your "ideal" homestead is. Believe it or not, the "ideal" can vary enormously from person to person.

A couple of thoughts came to mind when I read your post, though, so I'll throw them out there. They may or may not be relevant.

That new bedroom? What's that for? Your kids are growing up and will mostly likely be moving out in not that many more years. Are you intending to rent rooms? Bed and breakfast? Hey, if those are your intentions, or something like it, that's fine. If not, I do kinda wonder whether it will be something that will seem like a good idea 10 years from now or whether you'll wish you hadn't bothered.

TNAndy, those are some nice looking kitchen cabinets! I enjoy doing projects like that myself. Got to do one kitchen from the studs out so far and hope to do another. They're a lot of work but also very rewarding!

Energy efficient appliances are great. But are you thinking at all about the possibility that there might be problems with the electrical grid in the future? Maybe it doesn't get wiped out with an EMP type event but there's still the possibilities for major storms interrupting the grid for a good long time, or even rolling brownouts when there are shortages for whatever reason. Will those energy efficient appliances be of value to you then? Or will they be large boat anchors because you don't have electricity? I know, there are always generators but those use fuel which is expensive now and likely to become more expensive in the future. Like I said, I don't have a good feel for where you ideal is, just the thoughts that came to mind. They might be off base for what you intend.

As for college... I know this is gonna step on some toes but I don't know how much faith I would put in the "numbers" that suggest that people with a college education do better financially than those who don't, at least going forward. Those statistics that you read are numbers from past history. This ain't the same country it used to be. There are kids with 6 figure college loans that earn a little over minimum wage flipping burgers and saying, "Welcome to Walmart" because there just isn't work in their field of study. And that's becoming a very common tale. If the kids have a passion for a field of study that they want to pursue, let them pursue it on their own dime. They'll appreciate it a lot more if they earn it rather than have it handed to them. If they want a degree in medicine or some other technology, there are programs with the military that can buy them education for a few years of service. Some of the jobs out there that people poo-poo as "dirty jobs" make a lot of money and don't require a degree from Harvard or Princeton. A good mechanic can pull down a very nice salary with the right training. That said, I'm all for education. Just make it matter for the situations at hand. Unless they plan to teach it on a college level, a major in Elizabtethan Literature isn't of much value to anyone and good luck finding that college teaching position. A vocation and an avocation are two different things. Just saying... (And I'll probably get blasted by someone who wants to refute my opinion with their historical facts.)

As for the livestock... Just how much meat to you eat?? Are you intending to make a business out of cows or chickens or goats or turkeys or ?? What are you going to feed them? Raising animals is not a cheap endeavor, especially if you're not growing a lot of their feed right there on the homestead. A pasture for just a few animals needn't be a huge expense and like stated above, barbed wire and/or high tensile wire is cheap. Add decoration later if you want to.

Cars can be looked at in quite a few different ways and since no two are the same, it makes comparisons difficult. My brother has a Ram 1500 that he drove back and forth to work every day for a good long time. A year or so ago, he found an old "beater", a little 4 cyl stick that gets 3 times the fuel economy for something like $2k. He's put very little into it and runs it quite a lot for commuting and just general running around. For him, the purchase made good sense and he's probably saved more on gas by now than he spent on it. He also extended the life of his truck. Now had he bought a brand new Honda/Toyota/Mazda/Kia/?? for $30k and expected that to be his "economy car", then no, it wouldn't have made sense at all. (I will say that he is a mechanic and very well able to fix most anything and take care of it very well. It's a useful skill set to have.)

A general store is kind of a fun idea. Do you have a feel for what it would take to run such a thing? Do you have a feel for what would be required for even a very basic inventory? How about staffing? Bookeeping and accounting? Taxes? Are you going to be producing anything you sell? If so, when are you going to produce it? A general store is usually open a lot of hours to serve the community. Someone needs to be there like fulltime, probably several people. But that turns into a business more than a homestead thing.

Hey, not suggesting that anything is wrong in your dreams. There are some things that wouldn't be right for us but hey, we're all different with different hopes, dreams and ambitions. Some want big houses or mansions. Some want the latest in energy efficient appliances while some want a simple wood cook stove and maybe a simple gas one for the summer time. Some only want a small comfy shack. Some want big open estates while some are way happier with a small clearing in the woods. Some want to live quietly puttering around in their gardens. Others want to live in the hustle and bustle of the community happenings and intermingle with people in a big way.

I wish you the best!

sleuth;

"... long-term planning on my family's path to self-sufficiency..."

is not compatible with having so much lawn that it takes

"... 4+ hours per week ... mowing."

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http://www.mofga.org/Programs/FarmAp...2/Default.aspx

For us it has been a 6 year work in progress, we did what we could to get started and many things have been replaced with what we originally wanted but couldn't afford. We learned to do things ourselves instead of hiring them done. We learned to do more with less and sometimes that meant it was harder to do, but it got done. The garden reduced our grocery bill so that savings was dedicated to something else that would save a little bit of money. The chickens saved us money in eggs and while 3.00 a week isn't much it adds up and gets put toward something else. We keep just enough livestock to provide us with food and those that can be maintained with our land and very little input. Cows are too expensive to feed so we have goats. Most of the year they cost us nothing, until they start milking and then what they produce in milk, butter, ice cream and cheese more than pays for what they eat in grain. One thing I notice with your list is really high dollar ways to maintain a "city" type lifestyle. Personally I think you would see more savings and self sufficiency with changing that mentality. Learn to do more with less (or what you have) first and then you can be in a better position to be able to work toward the dream. We wanted solar too, but it was way out of reach to maintain the level of energy use we had (all electric house). So we stopped using the dryer, immediate lowering of electric bill. Then we got a wood stove again immediately lowering the bill. We limit the length of showers in the winter and built an outside summer shower that we love for about 30.00. Saves us money all summer long. As we cut back we realize that solar is getting closer to being more affordable for us. Hope that helps, Kat

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Come visit Homesteading and Homekeeping at Whisperwind Farm

Here are a few facts.
1. There are four type of Employees (Rich Dad POOR Dad) Which are you. If you are either S or E you need changes.
2 Your Farm (This is not in this book) is in the same category as the book describes employees, IT is an employee and like the description your lawn that is on your welfare you support it and all it give back is a smile and maybe a clear range of fire. but you support it.
In a Self sufficiency this has to change.
Now that I have confused everyone let me break down your farm and you.
If it isn't supporting you you are the government and have a welfare recipient. In SS this is not except-able.
Your farm needs to provide you with money and food 12 months a year. How to do this is your job but for self sufficiency all welfare parties have to be fired up and off the feed trough.
Your land needs to be separated into sections that can exist with out the other, one fails the others don't. In a drought when people are selling their cattle due to no feed you build barns because you have poplar trees that when you cut them down the cattle will strip the leaves for browse and do just fine. Not the best feed but you now have better buildings and your herd is in tact. This is getting the farm to work as a factory and this is the true freedom of self sufficiency.

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One of the things I do is help people get a handle on their finances. About 7 years ago, I wrote a book, "IOU NO MORE", on how we got our financial house in order. Since that time, we have become homesteaders and are on our road to self sufficiency. Many of my views have tweaked and/or sharpened since then and I'm working on a follow up, "No More Paycheck To Paycheck."

My 10,000 foot advice would be.

1. Stop borrowing money. Plan to never do it again
2. Get on a written budget. Make every penny count.
3. Establish an Emergency Fund
4. Eliminate debt.
5. After debt, create a budget that at a minimum gives 10%, saves 10% for the future, 10% for college.
6. Prioritize your projects. Tackle them in order of importance. Like the old proverb says, "the best way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time."

One more thing: Good for you for committing to the path of self sufficiency. You're already way ahead of most people in America. And...you're among the right support group by being a part of this forum. There may be some nuance differences in opinion and priority, but in the grand scheme of things, everyone's in this together.

I'll just say this one more time and leave it be. People are smart enough and able to make their own decisions.

I agree, a multi-hundred thousand dollar degree in literature is probably not a great idea...especially done on loans.

Looking at the observation that there are a bunch of kids working at walmart with college degrees and saying that their education was not worth the cost is so short sighted, it's scary.

Those 22 year olds have over 40 years left in their work lives....they won't be working at walmart for long. People panic too quickly. Economies move in cycles. They have for thousands of years in every area of the world. Right now, there aren't enough jobs for them. That doesn't not translate to "there never will be enough jobs for them". Eventually, that college degree will pay off if they are willing to work.

The US is not and will never again be a manufacturing economy. We were. We were built on that. But we are a service economy now and will remain that way for a very very long time. Service jobs require education for the most part.

My point is not to say the people with a college education are any better or any smarter than those without. I'm just pointing out that the mentality that college is not valuable anymore or, somehow, isn't valuable enough to justify the expense is entirely too short-sighted and we all need to encourage our kids (if they are able) to pursue higher education in one way or another....for their own good.

College is just not for some kids. That's fine. They are not doomed to poverty if that's the case. There are lots of good jobs that don't require it. My point is just that, if they are able, it is always wise to continue on with education.

My thoughts

If you need a new heating system, go radiant. You won't need the geothermal if you do. A radiant system will pay for itself over forced hot air in a few years. You will need a hot water heater, but no furnace. You can use a boiler (with a holding tank for the domestic hot water) or or just a good hot water heater for both.

A kitchen remodel can be done on the cheap, or done very expensively. There is a place in between. If you are putting in new cabinets, price out a local carpenter/cabinetmaker. He may be able to make you high end cabinets for the price of ready made mid-grade. If you did that, you'd be keeping your money in the local economy.

I agree with the community college approach. Your kids get their basics from a good community college, then go on to the four year college. Community colleges have a larger base of "adults", which is a good thing in my mind. They have a larger base of adults who are working and supporting a family, or in these times, have lost their job but are people who have a work ethic and are trying to better themselves, and have a family. CC are also more responsive to the needs of the workforce. It's much easier for them to add or subtract classes depending on what employers are asking for. There are also careers that only need a two year degree. Just make sure your kids get the associate degree before moving on to the 4 year college. Many many people start out at a CC, but still have the t-shirt and coffee mug from their four year college.

I would rethink having college savings. It all depends on the rate of inflation over the next few years if you are saving money or loosing money. It might work out better if you set up your homestead so that when your oldest is a junior in high school you are naturally saving money on your lifestyle so that you can help him with college. Grant money is based on parents income and how much they have in savings. You can actually be defeated by being frugal and saving.

I will not say they should not go to college. An associates degree could make a difference when that kid goes to get a business loan. Many employers see a degree, even a two year, as proof that the person can start something and finish it. It shows setting and accomplishing a goal. CC offer practical classes that 4 years don't. For instance the CC I went to had tv/radio/media. Your first semester you were in a tv studio and had to be on the college's radio two hours per week. In a 4 year, you'd have to wait until 3rd year.

If your high school has a program where they train the kids to have a job when they graduate, your kids should seriously consider taking the course. A hair stylist can make good money, and if your kid can cut hair in his/her dorm room, they can make money independently without getting a regular job. Reflexology is another one, editing papers if they are good at that. Think outside the box.

Living independently means different things to different people. Growing your own food, buying food in large lots in season and preserving it, knowing how to fix things so you don't have to call in a professional. It might mean getting a small wind turbine and using batteries for energy (they sell window models), or it might mean having the small turbine in case the power goes out. Having your own water (well), knowing first aid so you can take care of injuries should you not be able to get to a medical facility. Knowing how to use essential oils and reflexology.

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Nothing is as strong as gentleness, nothing so gentle as real strength - St. Francis de Sales

Just doesn't seem right to me. Move to the country to be self sufficient but want it all, and wonder why it won't work. All backwards. To each their own I guess, not much sympathy here....James

We probably agree on more than you might think.

I would agree that there are some lines of work, professions, whatever you want to call it, that pretty much demand a college education. And I have no problem with that. That's where you learn when it comes to medicine, engineering, etc.

So a lot depends upon WHY a person is going to college. There needs to be a reason that's relevant to a career path. (And I do have an open enough mind to realize that something like English can be relevant in today's world as we all have to communicate.)

In the conversation above, it's hard to get any real grasp as to who the kids are and what they would be doing in college. Is it a burning desire for a particular field? Or a chance to spend 4 or 5 or 6 years partying on dad's dime?

I will also repeat that if kid wants it, kid can make it happen whether dad has $#1 or not.

One place we do disagree is on the idea that the economy is going to turn around significantly for the better for our kids and grandkids. So far, I don't see any evidence that things are getting better and I don't even see plans to actually make things better. We're rearranging the chairs on the Titanic here. Where things will be in 20 years, I don't know. None of us do. I just don't see them going back to anything we've seen in past US history.

But hey, we're all entitled to our own view of the future to come. Yours is more optimistic than mine.

If things don't turn for the better eventually, then we will be in a very deep depression for an extended period.

Guess who loses their jobs first in a depression...

One of the things that kinda scares me a little is that if there is a deep and protracted depression, we're not living in the same world as we were in 80 years ago. The population has changed dramatically as have the rules and principles we live under. In the 1930s, we had an agrarian society. It was commonplace for people to be eating out of the garden and the root cellar. There wasn't nearly the sentiment that Uncle Sam was gonna take care of our every need.

Today, we have a society where about 1% of the population works in agriculture. We also have 40% (+?) of the population on some kind of government aid / assistance, many of which draw their entire living from that government handout every month, not only expecting it, but demanding it. We also have a government that is getting more and more desperate, grasping at straws, trying to figure out where the money is going to come from to keep their financial house of cards from collapsing around them. Precedents continue to become more progressive towards more bold methods of wealth confiscation way beyond inflating away the wealth of the "savers".

In hard times, the most expendable get expended first. If the dead wood is low level workers that are not needed to keep the production going, they're outta there. If they're mid-level managers and paper pushers with BS degrees that are not really doing anything of any real value, they're outta there, too. Dead wood is dead wood, and it comes in a lot of flavors. In all fairness, I do think there are more on that lower level that are considered expendable because so many on that lower level are there because they do not have the drive, motivation, or sometimes ability, to go beyond that.

(I can think of a few mid-level managers as I type this that are pretty much worthless, but that's a specific situation...)

One thing that is hard to quantify in a discussion like this is the type of "non-college educated" person we're talking about. Are we talking about someone who basically has no ambition in life other than to say, "would you like fries with that?" and has no plans beyond getting home to the Xbox after work?

That's radically different than the guy that says, "college isn't for me", but hangs out with people who does the kind of work he wants to do, takes the kinds of classes or workshops or training sessions that he needs to learn what he needs to learn in his field and is out making himself into one of the top people in his area all without a "college" at all.

In these types of discussions, those two very different people often get lumped into the same group, "non-college educated".

In the world I see coming in the future, I'm thinking that those inclined towards practical skills are the most likely to do well, whether that's fixing, building, growing, or perhaps a few other things. Many times, becoming really good in one of those fields doesn't come with a college degree. Doesn't mean there will be no "higher learning". Just maybe comes in a different form.

I hear what you're saying, but I'm the geek and country boy in the family. My wife is fully behind me, but I do most of the planning.

Well, I'm not sure a 6 year old and 4 year old are really capable of a paying job and putting money away for college. As for the 13 year old stepdaughter, well, that's a long story... Right now she babysits to earn her spending money. I'm not sure how to get her started in any other business. Although she's a great student, she tends to give up at the first sign of difficulty. I'm not sure entrepreneurship is in her future. There's more to the story here that I don't want to share online, but I don't think she's going to ever take it upon herself to save for college while she's a teenager - maybe one day when or if something "clicks" inside her brain.

We have life policies on all our kids, minimum policies with a guaranteed insurability rider simply to allow them to be able to buy life insurance in the future even if they get sick before then.

I do a lot of work myself, but I live 6 hours away from the nearest family, so for something the scale of a roof replacement, I'm not sure I could do it by myself. I may be able to call in some friends, but we've only lived here 1.5 years so have only developed a few close friendships. I got a quote on a metal roof from a guy I go to church with - $4000ish. Maybe I could offer to work alongside him to reduce some of the labor costs.

Got to start somewhere. We're going to double our garden size next year and hope to open that produce stand. Also to give a lot of way to the local food pantries. Wife has several crafts items she wants to learn and sell - soaps & detergents, candles, primitives, etc. - as well as produce, eggs, puppies (yeah). Basically would be an income she could make at home.

As I mentioned above, there is hope for the little ones but I'm not sure about the oldest. Do you have any tips for getting the little ones started? One thing I learned from the first one, don't promise college. Instead when I talk about college, always talk about how they're going to send themselves to college.

Here is a way to think about things on your list. What if there were a real family crisis you had to deal with, what would you do on your list and what would you say is just not that important. four hours a week mowing grass is expensive in time, gas, and mower maintenance. That seems to jump out at me as just plain dumb. If you can't get a sheep for some reason, reduce your lawn to a more manageable area that you can maintain in an hour or less per week.

Prioritize that list. Maybe being self sufficient sounds good to you but really isn't that important. Another bedroom and nicer kitchen may be a higher priority for you. WHile I might not agree with your choices, I don't pay your bills or live in your house.

I've given it a lot of thought. Insurance on a 3rd vehicle is generally pretty cheap, and we would probably only need to buy a cheap, older used car. With a 3rd vehicle, we'd always have one as back-up, and I would be free to do more car repairs myself. Right now, whenever the car breaks down, we usually pay for repairs to get it done as quickly as possible to avoid disruption and make sure I can get to work daily while my wife is still able to meet her obligations and have emergency transportation while I'm at work (I work about an hour from home).

This will be my first solar project, but I'm thinking given the age of the furnace and AC, they have to come before the HW heater.

Any tips for convincing my wife that an electric fence is safe for the kids? I've tried to tell her I was always around it on Grandpa's farm growing up, but it makes her nervous.

We are on the Dave Ramsey plan and have been for about 5 years. We actually just started leading a class this year. I just wish there were a Dave Ramsey plan tailored for us homesteaders. Maybe I should invent one.