Need some Well advice. As well as family advice.
 

This requires a somewhat lengthy explanation before you can understand. We are taking over our acre on somewhat of a land contract with my grandmother. Once we catch taxes up, the property will be switched to our name. Our house is on a corner. It was previously a rental property. Next to us, on our lot, was a trailer. Next to that, on another lot, is a trailer. The other lot, with the trailer, is owned by my mother, with a renter. This is a "no-contract" renter, who is supposed to be under the impression of if it breaks, he fixes it.

We tore down the trailer in the middle. So its just our house, and the trailer on the next lot. The problem is, our well/pump, supplies his water. Its on our property, and on our electricity. When my grandpa built these places, he just had one well do all three homes.

This is all fine and dandy, the renter pays us 10 dollars/month for the electricity his water usage runs. Yesterday, the pump went out. And we, and the renter were out water. After a day of anxiety, we were able to find a well driller who would take two payments and get it done last night. 1,076 dollars later. WE have water. We haven't turned on the neighbors water yet. My mother is refusing to pay half of the well pump bill, or get her renter to pay it, saying that the responsibility of the well pump was "Grandfathered" in to our property. I think this is a load of bullhocky, and that she should pay half.

Am I wrong? Are we wrong for turning off his water till someone agrees to pay for half?

Turn on the guys water, then you and your Mom settle your dispute.

Your mother is being skootchy. As it's her renter, it's her responsibility.

What you decide to do depends on what sort of relationship you have with your mother, and what sort of relationship you want with her in the future. If it's already a tenuous sort of thing, and you don't really care, you could pretty much say, "Hey, if he wants water, you have to pony up the cash."

Do you have a written agreement with the renter and your mother to supply his water?

It could be that she doesn't want the renter there any more, and this is her way of kinda-sorta evicting him.

But I don't know enough about the situation to really say. I'm just musing here....

What's the difference between a pump and a furnace, or a water heater, or a toilet, or a storm window? Only the storm window......."if he breaks it, he fixes it"......did he break the pump???

geo

I guess nobody broke the pump. It was bound to happen. I'll tell DH to turn his water back on. I guess I just don't know how to go about this the right way. My mother keeps going on about how broke she is, yet I know her and her boyfriend are going camping every weekend, playing in pool leagues... And I don't want to start family conflict when my mother is hosting my daughter's birthday next week.

But we really can't afford the whole cost either, and I really think she SHOULD be responsible for it, either that or make her renter pay.

If it benefits 2 people,2 people should pay.

you pay half, make mother pay 1/4 and renter pay 1/4.

The renter is paying you for the water he uses. Albeit dirt cheap-. It's your pump and well. It's yours to maintain. Turn on his water, and raise his monthly water bill. $10 won't pay the electric bill for his water. What would it cost people to have city water in cases where it is available??

10 dollars does pay his portion of the electric bill. Before we moved up here, he was the only one using the pump and it cost 10 dollars/month. City water costed us $35/month when we had it in Grand Rapids. But if a pipe broke, you had to fix it.

I like Uncle Will's suggestion to increase the water cost to the renter. Sure, it's only $10 for electricity, but that doesn't cover upkeep. That should figure in as well.

You may not be able to recoup the total cost of your outlay, but as the renter is benefiting from the well, he should contribute to its upkeep.

You already have a monthly contract with the man to supply him water at $10 each month.
You need to keep your end of the deal and supply him water. The real question is, is it worth $500-600 to disrupt your family life by demanding your Mom pay.

I don't see supplying a renter with water as him benefiting. It's the law to supply them with heat and water, plus a few other things.

pay the bill and change the fee when you can 5-600 is chicken feed compared to what a family fight will cost you in the long run !

I just told my mother (via email--since we are both at work), that right now the renter's water is off, and we need to come to an agreement. Either somebody pitches in for this, or the waterbill goes up.

If he is a paid renter it's illegal for you to shut off his water even if he is on a month to month lease . He could call the law out to make you turn it back on .Is it really worth it ? you all have to live there and granny gave you the place sounds like a pretty sweet deal .

You have one fat, hairy mess that would be a lawyer'$ dream come

true should you ever have to go to court to try and straighten it out.

To maintain the family peace, it would be best to try and work it out

BEFORE having to seek that route. The main problem that I see, is

that your mother is a landlord, but doesn't supply the bare essentials

to her tenant as required by law; water and heat. You supply half of

that, but get no renumeration in regards to rent, other than the actual

cost of electricity to get it to his trailer. I'm assuming, that your mother

pays the heat for her tenant? If the furnace in the trailer gives up the ghost,

will she or the tenant pay to fix or replace it? Or is there no written contract

in place and signed by all parties involved, that would take care of who is

responsible to take care of what? If not there should be and the sooner the better!

It should be drawn up (preferably by a lawyer or paralegal with enough snap and

knowledge of the existing situation) that it should cover all extenuating circumstances

that might arise. At this point in time, since gour mother is benefitting from a rental

property but without maintaining her portion of responsibility to provide water to said

rental, then she should cough up 50% of the costs to fix it. She could make payments

in installments like you are now doing with the well man. Either that, or have her sign over

a quit claim deed on the rental and then you can have all the 'legal' joys of being

a landlord. . . as well as the headaches too. Good luck with this legal mess - you'll need it.

Well he's not your renter, is he? He's your mother's renter. Shouldn't she be responsible for providing him water? She's technically been mooching water service off your grandmother, right? So now that you own your grandmother's land, the well went out, and it's your job to replace it. If this wasn't family, I'd say you pay the repair bill, and tell her to get her own water. I'm not sure what to tell you since it's family though...she really needs to chip in for the repair bill if she wants to benefit from the rental money that is using YOUR well.

I'm cheap, and I look for personal responsibility, but I would turn that water on immediately. Your first sentences say why; "We are taking over our acre on somewhat of a land contract with my grandmother. Once we catch taxes up, the property will be switched to our name."

You tick off grammie, and she would be within her rights to not transfer the property to you. Your paying down taxes can be construed as "rent." If you get into a legal pizzing match, $1,000 is a drop in the bucket.

Be a mensch, turn on the water. If you want to go over and suggest that $20 a month is more fair than $10 for the cost of the water, do that but without the demands.

From what I'm hearing, you are in a REAL mess. More than what you realize.

Your Grandfather built these places, and it only made sense to have 1 well and 1 pump to supply the water to ALL the houses. Once your Mother got the rental property though, there should have been an agreement about the water, but that wasn't done.

You can't shut off somebody's water due to your family's troubles. It's not the renters fault. Turn that water back on.

But you have even bigger problems than this. You say you are in "somewhat" of a land contract. What exactly does that mean?

And once you "catch up" the taxes, the property will be put into your name. Is "catching up" paying this year's taxes, or several years in back taxes?

And until the deed has your name on it, you don't OWN it. Your Grandmother does. If something would happen to her before your name is on the deed, does she have a will specifying that YOU get that piece of property? If the will specify's your Mother gets everything . . . . . well . . . . it looks like you don't get along.

Are you sure you even want this property especially with your Mother owning the land next to you?

Once the property is in your name - you need to figure out what to do with the water problem. Yeah, $10.00 a month pays the electricity for the water, but the renter isn't really paying for the upkeep and eventual replacing of the pump.

But the whole problem is your Mother OWNS the property. She collects the rent and if anything, she should be paying you for the electricity and upkeep.

The renter doesn't own anything for the replacement of the pump. You moved into this house - that you don't own yet - and it seems have agreed to pay for repairs for the house because, supposedly . . . . in the future, your name will be put on the deed. Therefore, if the toilet breaks, you fix the toilet, if the furnace breaks, you pay to have it repaired. The water pump died - YOU pay for the new pump.

If Grandma died today, you have no guarantee you will inherit what you have been told.

The whole deal reeks of problems.

I totally agree with Michael, you have an entire nest of problems, the least of which is turning back on your renter's water. I sure hope you have gone out there and turned that valve to supply him water, it is not his fault you have problems with your family. Your family is legally responsible to supply him water. That is part of the mess you got yourself into when you took over this property and started paying back taxes and putting in a new well. Leave your renter out of it, he has done his part paying you $10 a month.

Turn his water back on... The pump is on your property, it's your responsibility. If you have a deal then you can just change it.

If the renter ever leaves then you can turn the water off and renegotiate.

I'm all for turning the water back on. But we definitely need a better agreement. When my grandma dies, it's in her will that this property will go to me. My grandma will not take this property back as she has no means to pay for it or fix it up enough for renters to live in it. The taxes we pay do not go to my grandmother. They go directly to the treasurer.
And since there were two years in our house without renters, we are catching up owed taxes.

And to answer copperkid's questions, my mother does not supply heat. He fills up his own propane, and put in his own woodstove. He cuts his own wood, that he finds himself (not on the property.)

And the 10 dollars/month ONLY covers the electricity he draws from it, which was always very clear that its for electricity.

My mother didn't even want a renter to begin with because of all of the fun that goes with it. But when this guy needed a place, she was like... "well, I have a place, but I don't want to fix anything." And his yearly sum of rent, covers twice the amount due on annual taxes, so she is making a profit, even if a small one.

Ay yi yi. What a headache. Thank you all for your advice. Now I just gotta straighten all this out.

The renter is meeting his obligations as I understand it, and should have his water. Now.

Either you need to charge more per month to cover the actual cost of the water if your well is a profit center for you. As you have found out, a well costs more than just the electricity to run it...

Or you need to view it that you will be paying for the new pump yourself for your water, even if the renter nor your mom existed at all. So your pump is your cost in any case.

Your mom is in a bit of a pickle, as she is renting out a house without water.... That is a puzzle then, as to who would work out what details as to who is actually responsible for the water issue - your mom as she is the landlord that typically is responsible for such basics, or you because you have an established record of supplying the water for $10 a month.

In any way of looking at this, the tenant is in the clear, and should have their water turned on as soon as possible. They have no dog in this fight, and could easily come after both you and your mom for harming them.

Turn the water on yesterday already. Go home and do it now. You will run into much bigger problems than the cost of the pump if you do not.

As others said, there appear to be very many loose ends on this entire situation, and likely all will come crawling out...... It is difficult enough to have family dealings going on, and with back taxes involved we can read between the lines a bit....

Throw in the rental property and the co-owned well and it becomes a lot of loose ends you are walking into, this is only a small one. Of course, you did not ask for our advice on that, and so it is a bit rude of me and others to try to get into that business where we don't belong.... ;)

Paul

I agree, you need a better agreement and all parties involved - you, your Mother, and the renter need to agree to a new agreement. But the fact remains the renter IS holding up his side of the agreement. If the roof leaks, he has to fix it, if the electricity wiring won't work, he needs to replace it or repair it as his own cost. The well and pump are on YOUR property. Turn the water on before the renter wises up and reports both you and your Mother.

You do realize if your Grandmother ends up in a nursing home and can't pay for herself, her property will likely go to the nursing home or state? The fact remains that currently SHE OWNS the property you are staying on. And even once the property is in your name, I believe there is a 5 year window before nursing home / state can't look back and claim assets that were given away.

My next question is were you there before the renter, or was the renter there before you moved in? If he was there before you, you moved in with the understanding your well provided water to the renter. If he came in after you, what agreement did you and your Mother have? Yes, the renter agreed to give you $10.00 for electricity, but did you mention that it wasn't enough for upkeep on the well/pump? I doubt it.

This isn't going to be an easy fix. It sounds like you and your Mother don't get along. But regardless, the past has shown all were fine with the status - as it was - before the pump died. I'm sure you have no written contract regarding the $10.00 electric payment.

Unless you come to a new agreement with the renter about paying more, I'm guessing you are stuck in this situation until the renter moves out. Once he moves out, you can inform your Mother that the water has been shut off and unless a written agreement is made, it won't be turned back on for any new renters.

But right now the renter is in the middle of the fight between you and your Mother. The renter is in no way responsible for paying for the pump. TURN HIS WATER BACK ON NOW!

And to add to this^

Has your mother's part of the property been separated out with its own deed or is it still part of your gm's property? Is she paying the taxes on her property or is it still on your gm's property taxes?

Also, make sure that the trailer you tore down is not still counted on the taxes as rental. That will help lower the tax bill some(and insurance, if there is any).

Good luck, the pump is the least of your worries, it sounds like.

And this is another excellent point. If your gm really wants you to have it, you should talk to her about going ahead and signing it over with her having life time interest in it.

And that means IMO that He is Not responsible in any way for the repair or cost of the pump, as he was not paying for the upkeep in the agreement as he was only paying for the electricity he used for the pump to run. It is your responsibility to get his water back on asap.

Turn the water back on, and send a picture of the new pump in with your Mother's Christmas card. "Here's your Christmas present, Mom!"

:)

geo

Even if this is so (do you have a copy? has this been filed at the court house?). At the end of the day it is just a piece of paper that can be argued. Most people don't have anything remotely resembling an iron clad will. Your Mom can argue it is hers, other siblings can say you put undue stress on your Grandmother and she didn't know what she was doing and you were only renting for the price of back taxes. The property can still legally be one piece which means you can't just piece meal it out, it has to go all together, and who gets the whole piece? The estate could owe money and the entire thing needs to be sold. There are so many variables.

Since there isn't even any understanding of something simple like the water on the renter's property, it seems to me that you need to do more due diligence before putting any more money into this property.

Please tell us you have turned on that renters property. He is well within his rights to report you and your mother to the powers that be. Renters do have rights and you have been accepting his $10, which sets it up to be your responsibility, at least as far as it seems to me.

DH just did tturned it on. I think my mother is coming over tonight and we are going to hash out some details. There is some sort of agreement from when my grandpa died. to where these properties cannot be sold outside of the family. My mother is the legal owner of that renters lot. After this fiasco though, I realized I have ALOT to learn, and alot of legal stuff to take care of regarding this property business.
And my mother and I need some firm agreements on stuff like this.

I hope you do get it worked out, and I am glad you turned the water back on, though that should have been done as soon as the pump was fixed. If he is not a prepper and doesn't have water stored then he went to work without a shower, teeth brushed, coffee??

You need more than a firm agreement. Neither you or your mother own this property. You are renting the same as the renter in the other trailer.

The person you need to deal with is your Grandmother. FIRST.

Other posters have tried to tell you that you have put money into a well that you may never recover. Despite what has been told to you, if it's not in writing, you have nothing.

The money you put in the well is the same as buying a car for the person down the block, the one that you don't know.

My point is that the cost of maintaining the well should be figured into the monthly charge. He's getting more than $10 worth of electricity: The well is enduring extra wear and tear due to his usage, so of course he should cover that as well - it certainly isn't covered in the rent he pays to the OP's mother.

We have one water well that provides water for our home, the cattle on our property (but the owner of the cattle pays pasture rent), the house next door with a renter in it, the goats (mine and renter's), and 300 pecan trees.

When the well went out, we fixed it. We paid for it. We are essentially the water department for the renter, and we have a responsibility to provide water.

Asking them to pay half would be ridiculous.

If you own a rent house with a water well, and the well goes out, YOU fix it, not the renter. It's part of the cost of doing business.

And even if it is in writing, unless it's a deed, there still isn't any guarantee.

Many children down through the ages have been told they would inherit everything from their parents upon their death. Chances are very good that at least one of those parents will end up in a nursing home - and if it's the last one living a nursing home at minimum is $3000.00 / month - at maximum you are looking at $6000.00 / month or even more. I believe the average time a resident spends in a home is 1 1/2 years. Minimum spent $3000.00 X 18 months = $54,000.00. Maximum spent $6000.00 X 18 months $108,000.00.

It doesn't take long to eat a nest egg at those prices and once the resident can't pay for it themselves, the State or Medicare picks up the nursing home tab. But upon their death, the State or Medicare wants their money back or what they can get. So the children end up with nothing.

Have you not read about all the people who changed the will (with the old person's "consent") and the heirs who thought (and were TOLD) they were getting something, come to find out things got changed?

Read up on people who were told their parents were giving them a house and property, and the children moved in and fixed the house up and remodeled it, and then the parents and children got to fighting and the children were kicked out of "their" house.

Many people have said "Oh, that would never happen to me." They found out otherwise.

I think I'd talk to a lawyer about the way to protect both Grandma and you. Maybe put you on the deed as well, with you "paying" her for your share by the fixing and things you pay for. As others have said, there are a lot of things that could go wrong and you could loose everything you put into the place. A few hundred dollars to a lawyer could be a really good investment.

Im sure glad Im not your neighbor or your mother, geeze, that was mean to do to him. Your being given a piece of property. Get used to putting money into it.

Just because there were no renters, is no reason taxes arent paid. I really do not get any of this "logic".

They want it grandfathered? I'd hand them the dead well pump, and tell them "here you go, here's your grandfathered water pump".

Want to grandfather yourself in on this one, split the bill and up the electric charge each month... 10$/month sounds awfully cheap. Our electricity is 50% more than it was, just a few years back (with fuel surcharges)

Shared resources? Shared costs!

So true... you have diddly, if it's not deeded, notarized, and filed in the courthouse. To assuage grantors feelings (Parents, Grandparents, etc.) a life estate can be added, wherein they can enjoy their lives without worrying about being kicked off their land or out of their home (shy of infirmity and the nursing home).

I've dealt with people that had a deed in hand, where their parents gave them property... yet, they didn't file it... meanwhile, a slimeball gets the owner to sign over the property to them... (dementia, smooth talker, etc.)... they notarize it, and file it, and bam, it's theirs... your unfiled deed is worthless. I have a deed from my grandparents to my father, giving him everything... however, dad couldn't come up with the cash, and it was never notarized, or filed... now, I only have a portion of the original...

Rereading the thread, I guess you did ask about family interactions, so it is fair game topic here. ;)

There are many legal nightmares in trying to hand down property from one generation to the next, under the best of conditions.

You have less than best conditions.

It sounds like there has been some money troubles in the past, with back taxes needing to be caught up.

It sounds like you and your mom sometimes see things differently, which questions how things will actually be, despite any promises in the past. Mom can write a new will today and you are left out... Mom might not have written a good will that can easily be set aside...

It sounds like this property came from grandpa not long ago, and that whole estate might not have cleared yet? We don't know where the back tax issue originated for sure.

You have the shared well issue with rental property, now do you also know where the septic/leach field is located, on the rental land or on the land you are on? Some counties get real odd on these issues, and could determine the rental house came first and owns the right to the well and septic, and you are left out of having these, need to build new.... That is extreme, but such things do happen.

The nursing home issue is very valid concern, if the state needs to pay for nursing or medical over the years, they can claw back at least 3 years, many try for 5, to get back property you think already is in your name.

So, you are investing money that we aren't sure if your mom or your grandpas estate currently owns, with tax concerns over it and some easement (well) issues.

You are investing money in a property that you don't own, and even if/when you do get the deed in your name, will have the 'nursing home cloud' hanging over it for at least 3 years before it truly does become yours.

You say there is some restrictions on the property from your grandpas will as to keeping it in the family; those often backfire and open up a can of worms, it is something a legal person needs to sort out if you can THRN get the property from your mom, or if it remains in some independent trust your grandpa left that actually 'owns' the land.

There are legal ramifications of this, and it needs to be sorted out and fully, legally figured out. Your future, a good chuck of noney you invest in this property, depend on fully understanding all this.

The well costs are a real small problem here.......

You need to get your name on that deed before investing any money in the property. $500 spent with a lawyer setting up the legal living trust stuff is going to be the cheapest, best, money you -ever- spent, then in three years you will actually own the land, even tho it remains with your mom until she passes, it give you the asset for sure at some point in time.

Any other agreement or understanding or will or promise really means very little, as far as you ever owning that property. There are far too many legal loopholes and pitfalls any other way. The older generation can say a lot of things, but often don't follow through as they don't understand the legal rules to make happen what they say they want to happen... And the younger generation ends up holding only air and empty promises.

If your mom is unwilling to discuss a living trust then you actually have a rather small chance of ever really owning that property.

Briefly, a living will trust means your mom for absolute sure wills the property to you, but she retains use of it for as long as she lives. It gives her the use of the property so nothing is taken from her; but it promises the land to you so you can also plan your future.

With that trust, she could get totally completely ticked off with you and throw you off the land, write you out of the will, and so on. But when she passes, you get the deed, and if there are not outstanding bills with the first 3 years with the state, no one can touch the trust or come after you. But they need to be written up right!

Under the many complications that are hinted at with the overdue taxes, and ruffled feelings, and renters involved, that living trust with your name on the deed is about the only possible way you should put any money into this property.

Welcome to life, it is complicated isn't it? :)

Paul