off the grid?
 

ok, I know the basic concept of off the grid... being self reliant, not using city water/power etc..

but...

what about phone, internet, tv service? that sort of thing?

TV i have no problem going without, my tvs have recently been stolen, and honestly don't have any intention of replacing them. However, I'm not sure how to go about phone and internet?? I know there are people on here that are off the grid, but clearly still online. so how do you make it work?

or is off the grid not really OFF the grid? also, does anyone know if you HAVE to have an address? like if you build your own house, can you choose to not have a mailbox, only use a PO Box? or something similar?

thanks in advance

Where I live you can have only a P O box but you have to give the post office a physical address to get one .

I have a "permanent" address I can use for PO Box purposes... just hopefully don't have to have an actual address where the house is located. as undocumented as possible would be best

I don't live off grid, but I don't have tv or Internet at home. I use the free WIFI at stores in town, which I commute to daily for work and classes. I chose the places tht dont require you to buy something while youre there - yes,they exist. Phone is limited to a cell phone, why should I pay twice for the same feature? Tv I live without - I am sure we all can. I save about $1,200 annually for these choices.

As for off-grid, statelite and roof-top antennas are an option for all services: Internet, phone and tv.

I am not off grid, but considered it a few years back. It really depends on where you live, building codes/restrictions, etc. In Tn you can't give a PO box address for a driver's license, it must be a physical address. Most people who are off grid, have solar panels, battery back up systems, and/or generator's, or a combo of them. Some people hang out at free wifi locations to get on line, some have satellite internet, some may have it through a land line phone company, or a cell phone company, such as verizon. If you are speaking of building a place and the govt not knowing you're there, forget it. There is NO such place anymore. Type in the "proposed" address @ googleearth and you'll see what I mean. The "tax man" will find you, and to get a PO box, you also have to give your physical address and show PROOF of it.

oh I know the government will know I'm there... it's more "people" I want to stay away from... if it was possible to stay away from the government that would be AWESOME!!! however, I'm not delusional and know that's not possible. I know that they will know the lot number, parcel number etc... but if I can prevent the house location itself being known that would be great... 40 acres is a lot of land to search for an underground house :)

I have not looked up a definition for being "off the grid" but to me that means that you do not have electricity furnished by the on grid power company. Most of us that have a off grid place use solar,wind or some type of "power" to run things. As far as internet and cell phone---that has nothing to do with the "grid". You can get internet through your telephone. Yes you would have to have a way to charge the phone and if you are going to have a vehicle---you got a way to charge it. If you want to build you a cabin in the woods and want to use a PO box, you can work that out. You can use a family members or friends address(if they allow) for DL and other important things.

The "Goverment" can watch you from the sky if they want. They can watch you build this under ground home----without you even knowing it.

Off grid just means off the power grid. You can have telephones, internet, etc. We lived off-grid here for 8 years with solar and wind power and then decided to grid-tie and net meter. We have a well and septic system, used to have satellite internet and a land phone line.
You can have a PO Box and not a mailbox at your house, we did that also for years.

You can have a PO box, instead of a mailbox at your house, however here you have to have a physical address to get a building permit. It comes with your driveway permit. They have to know where to send the tax bills, or an ambulance!

we are looking into hydro and solar power. as well as well or fresh river water, rain collection, I understood off grid to be OFF grid... no city provided services at all.

more just want a way to keep some very obtrusive people and their drama out of our lives..

and if we can reduce our monthly bills and carbon footprint in the process, bonus! where we live right now is insane... $2500 a month for a 1200 sq ft 3 bedroom apartment, with no yard, $300 every other month (minimum if you aren't running the AC or heat) for electricity, another $50 monthly for city water and sewer and $50 monthly (average) for someone else to haul off all your garbage, compost, recycle, etc. that's $2800 a month right there, not counting food, gasoline, diesel, basic living needs like shampoo, bodywash, cat litter etc. not to mention the expense that is children. and it seems so cruel to keep 5 young kids crammed into such a tiny apartment.

so we are looking to buy property... lots of property... build a house that will not take nearly as much to maintain temperature, and have a small farm.. maybe a few cattle, some horses, a dirtbike track, some sheep, chickens, goats, and our own organic garden.

the primary thing motivating this is not only money, but our youngest (just turned a year old on the 4th of july) is diagnosed with major food allergies, most severely, corn. Can't even have corn biproducts in his clothes, lotions, soaps, etc. If we have acreage we can be sure of what we are feeding him. free range (not corn fed) livestock, organic produce, maintain our own compost, water supply, etc. our second youngest has some other pretty major health problems, and his physicians as well are certain being crammed into a tiny apartment in the middle of a city that has more asphalt than trees is a major contributing factor to his medical problems.

and being far enough, and remote enough from certain people... well, that's a big one too.. getting robbed 4 times in a year, vehicles vandalized, and other just terrorizing behavior has me to my limit... a restraining order is only a piece of paper, but a drawbridge over a river, tire spikes to deter unwanted "visitors" and a remote enough home should (hopefully) be enough to keep them at bay...

Are you talking like, living in the Alaskan bush and having to fly in? That kind of remote? :)

We have been off grid for 13 years. All electric and phone lines stop 3 miles from our home. We have a 3 mile dirt road/driveway, have to cross 2 creeks and go thru 3 locked gates to get to our place. We have 2-55 watt solar panels and a generator to charge batteries when several cloudy days in a row. Our water is gravity fed from a spring 700ft away. We have no refrigerator and use a root cellar, spring house, garden and can our meats. Hot water comes from solar in summer and tubing run thru woodstove in winter. Cooking is done on wood cookstove when to hot in summer I use an older propane stove that we haul our own propane tanks the 20# size. We heat with wood only. We have a windows phone thru Verizon and get our internet thru phone. Mail is po box, but we have a 911 physical address not that anyone could ever get out here. No television or cable but we do watch an occasional movie on a portable DVD player. Road is strictly 4wd and sometimes that doesn't work. Have gotten stuck many times and have had to hike the 3 miles to get to where we park car so that we can get to town. Have enough food,supplies to last about a year. Thanks to Verizon we just got internet had a cell phone but only got online recently back here. We live in southern west Virginia on a mountain and I wouldn't trade the privacy and peace and quiet that we have for anything. And no we were not raised in the country we are both from newyork (Manhattan and Brooklyn). My husband got hurt years ago and we made some changes. We decided to live on his disability and I would stay home. We live on $836. a month his disability, we get no food stamps or other government assistance. If we had to live in town and have all the bills and debt that go with it we couldn't do it on that amount. It took awhile to get used to living offgrid but I couldn't be happier. Good luck to you��

oh i wish... but that's sadly not an option for us....

You don't need a pilots license to live semi-remote in AK. I am seeing more and more people of retirement age that have a small income living out where I recreate.

It sounded like the OP was looking for more than semi-remote. And I was kidding.

this is a *little* more off grid than we are thinking, but it's close. what is a 911 address and how does that work? we've been discussing setting up a parking area on the one side of the river, and using quads to get to the house. or setting up parking for the "city vehicles" just past the river and 4x4ing it from there. depends on how much property is on the "city" side of the river.

we can't afford to live in the city. I'm a chef, and my husband works in manual labor, both making over $12 an hour and still rely (too heavily) on government assistance to make ends meet, and still find ourselves choosing food over rent, or medical bills over food... something to that effect. we HATE it.

I don't mind commuting an hour to get to a city for work, we do that now and live less than 30 miles from where I work. it's horrible. we still have every intention of using electricity. certain things we just can't live without (like my convection oven) but from the research we've done, the underground house will maintain temperatures year round, and provided we do the waterproofing right, will be watertight, and we can design and build it to what we want. with airducting with filters, etc for my kid's health, and lots of clean country air. (i know that seems rather redundant, air filters for clean country air, but underground houses have areal problem with poor air quality due to lack of air flow)

but we don't want to pay for the electricity, not like we are now anyway. I know there are other effects, etc to using solar power, or hydro electrics. (such as initial costs, maintenance, potential environmental impacts due to diverting water)

and honestly, the thought of paying someone else to pump water in, and sewage out, seems ridiculous when there's a river on the property, and plenty of room for terrifically enviable compost piles. we are already using biodegradeable diapers, due to our son's allergy to corn, and compost/recycle/reuse EVERYTHING we can. so that shouldn't be too much of an adjustment. we have spent a year living in the "country" on acreage, and we love that way of life (hate being back in the city) and I grew up on a farm, so hopefully we aren't looking at too much of a "culture shock" type situation. I think losing the TV and video-games is going to hit my husband hard, but he'll manage :cool:

We can only get mail to a P.O.Box also, but must still have a physical address for council records etc and also emergency situations (ambulance, police, fire) Though a fire truck would get here way too late as we are too far out.

We are off-grid with our own power (solar & water wheel) and collect and dispose if our own water. We got a phone line dug in then the Internet. We are unable to get cellphone coverage AT ALL!
I saw a special on TV (we don't watch much) about using public wifi. Apparently your even more open to hacking when using free public wifi in places like Mc D's and libraries etc... Anyone got any info on this?

Your convection oven might be a no-go. Ranges for off-grid power systems are hard to find without a "glow bar" and the ones without are generally pretty bare bones.

I moved from the city to my "hunting cabin" 2 years ago. The cabin is on the grid but I heat with wood and have a well and septic. I bought a 250 gallon propane tank and the valves and hose to fill the 20 pounders for the camper, ice fishing house, and BBQ grill. The cabin has a propane stove and a propane furnace but the furnace is backup only.

I occasionaly take some trash to the transfer station at a cost of $3. The propane will last 4 years running just the stove So about $60 a year for propane. Electricity runs between $50 and $100 a month but $25 of that is a fixed charge for the privilege of being hooked up to the grid. Taxes are $150 a year.

In the city I used to pay 60 a month for water/sewer, $4500 a year in taxes, $400 a year in fees for various things, $170 a month for electricity and gas, and $2000 a year for insurance. The cost for phone and internet is about the same. Moving to the country is saving me lots of money.

I bought a piece of land that is totally off grid and plan to build and live there. When that happens the electric bill goes away but the propane bill will go up to run a propane fridge and a freezer. There will also be a solar panel system to run the well pump and lights. There is good cell coverage so I should be able to get internet through the cell phone. There is a large up front investment to going off grid. Once I do though, the only costs will be for propane, taxes, and the internet/cell phone.

Ovens pretty well have to have standing pilots. Anything that uses electricty to make heat sucks power. Toaster is short term, cooking is not.

Motors also need to be considered if run for extended periods. Range hoods, convection, furnace, heat pump, ovens, referigators, cooling fans etc. Fan forced furnace and heat pump heat/air probably not unless you have BIG system.

Physical address is required for several things. You can get mail wherever you want.

Hiding is tough thanks to the internet. If you own property you pay taxes and if the property is owned in your name it is an easy matter to search tax county tax records. Mailing address doesn't matter.

Off-grid appears to be cheap once set up but you need to have cash, or credit, to replace components which wear out, like batteries, or fail, like charge controllers and inverters.

Off-grid usually requires propane for cooking, backup heat, water heating, refrigeration. Budget for it.

Same with gas for generators and replacing/repairing generators. You will have to have a gen to charge batteries when no sun.

Also, put your hand in front of your tv when it's on. Warm. Heat is power sucker. Tv is our biggest single power use.

It's cheaper but sure not free. Research it to death before taking the jump.

You said in the beginning that you wanted to hide---If one of your main reasons for building under ground to "hide" so to speak. I think you will be wasting some money. Sure the temperature is more steady underground but if you got to run dryers/de-humidifiers to keep the moisture/air right---you might come out just as good and alot cheaper to build above ground---at least part of the home above ground. If you are going to have some solar panels and/or wind/etc you can not hide them----a dead give away there is a home there. If you were trying to hide some-----smoke from a fireplace/outdoor cooking will give you away. A driveway right up to your underground home is a dead give away. Something to think about.

Nimrod - you fill smaller propane tanks from a bigger one - where did you get the necessary hoses and fittings to do that - I've been thinking of filling 20 lb from a bigger tank - thanks

We use a propane barbecue grill for an oven, and we also have a propane oven I salvaged out of an RV. Neither require a pilot light.

Off-grid can be as primitive or as non-primitive as you'd like. We're off-grid, but I have internet. For entertainment, we sometimes watch Netflix on a laptop screen. A television is a mono-use device and it consumes a lot more power than a 35watt laptop.

Don't listen to naysayers. Some people will claim you're not really "off grid" unless you're naked and starving to death in a cave. You can make of it what you want. There's a learning curve, but it's worth doing.

Read "How to be Invisible" by J. J. Luna.

COWS

Do many people use the w.e.t-back water heating system in the US? Where your wood burner or wood stove heats your hot water cylinder. (Copper pipe leading from cylinder down to the back of the fire box where it's snaked back n' forth then back up to the cylinder) It was a main instalment in most houses here in New Zealand way back in the days and is coming back into trend again. It may be a hassle for some having a fire going a lot but we cook with ours and heat so it ain't so bad. Might as well use the energy the best we can right?

We've gone through 2 inverters and 2 controllers due to not researching what we needed for our setup. Oh and 3 water pumps.
And yes we have to maintain all of that. It's not as straight forward as some people think.

Our water wheel has just been finished and we are waiting on cable to hook the house up to that. That has been one BIG learning curve. But really interesting.

Yes that is the key RESEARCH. Or you end up learning the hard way like us.

But it is sooo worth it if this is the kind of lifestyle you really want.

I love it. I'm truly happy living this way. It's not easy but we get so much satisfaction out of knowing we are doing for us with our own means. And learning something new every day.

Interesting, found this link for more info, thanks for sharing.

http://www.righthouse.co.nz/products/hot-water/-------

EDIT: Upon further inspection that website is great for off the grid research.

We have no wired electricity,
No one can force you to have a mailbox, but it helps if you have one or two pieces of mail you need to get and don't want to pay for a po box.

Some people here could go to the Library or town to use wifi or use a cell phone to get online. I amonline via a hotspot on my cell phone right now. We had phone and DSL working nicely until the Gas Fracing crew severed my line Friday. BTW my DSL Modem / Router and a HP Pavilion Laptop uses 15 to 20 watts tops!

I gave the County 911 office my exact directions how to follow the stone road up the double switchback road because the official 911 address for here, is not there LOL.

They can't force you to get a mail box, but they will assign you a 911 address whether you want one or not.

I had that fun conversation with the county clerk when we moved out here.

"Show me where your driveway is going to be so I can assign your address."

"We'll get our mail in town."

"This has nothing to do with the mail. It's so the police or fire department can find you in an emergency. If you were being robbed, wouldn't you want the police to know how to get to you?"

"I'd tell them to drive down my road and there will be a body waiting there for them to pick up."

"What if your house was on fire? How would you tell the fire department where it is?"

"I'd tell them to look for the smoke."

JoPa,
You have to own your own big tank and you have to find a local propane company that will sell you the valves and hose to connect to the 20 pounders. Most of them won't because they are afraid of liability. http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/gen...ane-tanks.html

Ernie,
I like the way you think, "look for the smoke" LOL I would probably point out that the house would be gone by the time the fire dept. could get there.
I just ordered a 19 inch LED TV with DVD player that runs on AC or DC and uses 24 watts maximum.

In most areas, the 911 address is simply the point where the driveway leaves the public road, obviously on large tracts the house could be a long ways from there. I don't know who or what you are hiding from but unless you are very careful, and you can't be that careful working a public job, they will be able to find you. Since a restraining order was mentioned, I assume it is some type of stalker, the best solution to that is to be a hard target rather than hiding. I look for trouble from no one but if they bring it to me, I will protect myself, and my family with a vengeance. The other reasons for the property are more than sufficient reason to have property though. Hope you find what you are looking for.

:eek:


I want to live with you real bad.. :kiss: Please?
I'll put me a cabin a good distance from you... and leave you alone as much as you want.
I could cook for you if you want
help with the garden, etc.
chop wood.. hm? okay?


all joking aside, you've described pretty much my dream. best to ya!

Are you aware that WA state photographs all land every 4 years or so, and checks the photos for things built without permits ect.

I do think you need to study the WA water rights laws, you keep mentioning things to use the river water for. That is not always possible, and a good way to find a serious lawsuit.

For us, living off-the-grid means being off the power grid. No power lines to our house.

When we moved here, this house did not have an address and I had to go to the post office and they made one for us. At that time our mailbox had to be a mile away on another dirt road. Over the years, the new mailman worked with the post office to convince them we needed one in front of our house. We did. I have an online business and needed to mail packages from our mailbox.

Our internet comes from a satellite. The cellphone works fine and we are totally surrounded by acres of state forest. We do not choose to have television, though I imagine if we wanted it, we could get it here. With a dish probably.

We have a propane stove. When we first moved here we had a propane refrigerator too. We haven't used a refrigerator for at least 6 or 7 years. This week we just ordered a Sundanzer refrigerator. We were saving for it, so sacrificed using a gas one. I mostly use a wood cook stove for cooking, but in the morning start the coffee on the propane one (which does not have a glow bar). Now I am on the challenge of getting rid of the propane stove. Might take a bit, but I think we can do it. Soon we will have more "conveniences" using our system (solar and wind), which started out with one panel and 4 batteries. I think if someone wants to do it, they should. Just start small and learn as you build it.

It's really not that hard. If I can do it, anyone can. When we pulled up into the pasture which was to be our new off-grid home, I couldn't explain the difference between AC and DC. Now I've got a working solar power system that works fine for us.

Where did you order your sundanzer from? We have talked about getting a refrigerator but still undecided. We use deep cycle marine batteries or really large ones off of bulldozers with our panels. They last a good long while. We are surrounded by forest but not national, nearest neighbors 6 miles away. I don't mind using the wood cookstove year round as when we built kitchen we put in lots of windows to allow for ventilation. Propane is good though when in a hurry or when grandkids are here and want breakfast NOW!

We had a similar conversation when trying to get an address: what if there's a fire, what if burglars, what if a medical emergency. We are pretty much on our own...fire extinguishers, buckets and pond, intruders will be bear food, medical emergency I was an army nurse.

I don't really miss having a washing machine, all laundry done by hand but a wringer would be nice. We do use a laundromat for large things like blankets and coats.

Hard to believe that I once wore heels, hose and makeup just about everyday

I use the wood cookstove almost all the time too. We moved our grill to our deck now and have been doing a lot of cooking on that during this hot summer.

The Sundanzer is available lots of places. I think my husband ordered it right from Amazon. It was the best price. Ships from Texas. I met someone who used the Sundanzer refrigerator and the freezer and he said it used less than his laptop. I have wanted it for a long time.

At first, I didn't miss the washing machine either. But after time, and I am in my sixties now, washing laundry by hand is not fun anymore. I can't walk real good and it is a chore. I am fortunate enough to have husband who has taken that job over for me. It is not fair to him, as he does an awful lot of work around here as it is. We already have the machine, and had the power to run it, just needed the running water. We will have that before winter.

Propane is our summer fuel. In winter we have the woodstove going all the time so we cook on it then, but in the summer we use the outdoor propane stove. I live in an arid scrubland and trees are scarce and precious. Our propane costs are about $25 every 2 months.

We have two wood stoves, a big heating one that has a huge top. It will hold 4 big canners on it with room left over. So I cook on it a lot and that is how we heat our water all winter. I love cooking on the wood cook stove. Food comes out so much better. Trees are plentiful here. Surrounds us. The propane, I am eager to get rid of. It's been great, but time to move on.