off the grid?

Nimrod · #21 07/22/13, 09:34 AM

I moved from the city to my "hunting cabin" 2 years ago. The cabin is on the grid but I heat with wood and have a well and septic. I bought a 250 gallon propane tank and the valves and hose to fill the 20 pounders for the camper, ice fishing house, and BBQ grill. The cabin has a propane stove and a propane furnace but the furnace is backup only.

I occasionaly take some trash to the transfer station at a cost of $3. The propane will last 4 years running just the stove So about $60 a year for propane. Electricity runs between $50 and $100 a month but $25 of that is a fixed charge for the privilege of being hooked up to the grid. Taxes are $150 a year.

In the city I used to pay 60 a month for water/sewer, $4500 a year in taxes, $400 a year in fees for various things, $170 a month for electricity and gas, and $2000 a year for insurance. The cost for phone and internet is about the same. Moving to the country is saving me lots of money.

I bought a piece of land that is totally off grid and plan to build and live there. When that happens the electric bill goes away but the propane bill will go up to run a propane fridge and a freezer. There will also be a solar panel system to run the well pump and lights. There is good cell coverage so I should be able to get internet through the cell phone. There is a large up front investment to going off grid. Once I do though, the only costs will be for propane, taxes, and the internet/cell phone.

Gray Wolf · #22 07/22/13, 11:39 AM

Ovens pretty well have to have standing pilots. Anything that uses electricty to make heat sucks power. Toaster is short term, cooking is not.

Motors also need to be considered if run for extended periods. Range hoods, convection, furnace, heat pump, ovens, referigators, cooling fans etc. Fan forced furnace and heat pump heat/air probably not unless you have BIG system.

Physical address is required for several things. You can get mail wherever you want.

Hiding is tough thanks to the internet. If you own property you pay taxes and if the property is owned in your name it is an easy matter to search tax county tax records. Mailing address doesn't matter.

Off-grid appears to be cheap once set up but you need to have cash, or credit, to replace components which wear out, like batteries, or fail, like charge controllers and inverters.

Off-grid usually requires propane for cooking, backup heat, water heating, refrigeration. Budget for it.

Same with gas for generators and replacing/repairing generators. You will have to have a gen to charge batteries when no sun.

Also, put your hand in front of your tv when it's on. Warm. Heat is power sucker. Tv is our biggest single power use.

It's cheaper but sure not free. Research it to death before taking the jump.

Fire-Man · #23 07/22/13, 05:58 PM

You said in the beginning that you wanted to hide---If one of your main reasons for building under ground to "hide" so to speak. I think you will be wasting some money. Sure the temperature is more steady underground but if you got to run dryers/de-humidifiers to keep the moisture/air right---you might come out just as good and alot cheaper to build above ground---at least part of the home above ground. If you are going to have some solar panels and/or wind/etc you can not hide them----a dead give away there is a home there. If you were trying to hide some-----smoke from a fireplace/outdoor cooking will give you away. A driveway right up to your underground home is a dead give away. Something to think about.

JoePa · #24 07/22/13, 06:40 PM

Nimrod - you fill smaller propane tanks from a bigger one - where did you get the necessary hoses and fittings to do that - I've been thinking of filling 20 lb from a bigger tank - thanks

Ernie · #25 07/22/13, 07:21 PM

We use a propane barbecue grill for an oven, and we also have a propane oven I salvaged out of an RV. Neither require a pilot light.

Off-grid can be as primitive or as non-primitive as you'd like. We're off-grid, but I have internet. For entertainment, we sometimes watch Netflix on a laptop screen. A television is a mono-use device and it consumes a lot more power than a 35watt laptop.

Don't listen to naysayers. Some people will claim you're not really "off grid" unless you're naked and starving to death in a cave. You can make of it what you want. There's a learning curve, but it's worth doing.

COWS · #26 07/23/13, 08:39 AM

Read "How to be Invisible" by J. J. Luna.

COWS

Barefoothaven · #27 07/23/13, 08:43 AM

Do many people use the w.e.t-back water heating system in the US? Where your wood burner or wood stove heats your hot water cylinder. (Copper pipe leading from cylinder down to the back of the fire box where it's snaked back n' forth then back up to the cylinder) It was a main instalment in most houses here in New Zealand way back in the days and is coming back into trend again. It may be a hassle for some having a fire going a lot but we cook with ours and heat so it ain't so bad. Might as well use the energy the best we can right?

We've gone through 2 inverters and 2 controllers due to not researching what we needed for our setup. Oh and 3 water pumps.
And yes we have to maintain all of that. It's not as straight forward as some people think.

Our water wheel has just been finished and we are waiting on cable to hook the house up to that. That has been one BIG learning curve. But really interesting.

Yes that is the key RESEARCH. Or you end up learning the hard way like us.

But it is sooo worth it if this is the kind of lifestyle you really want.

I love it. I'm truly happy living this way. It's not easy but we get so much satisfaction out of knowing we are doing for us with our own means. And learning something new every day.

sweetmusicj · #28 07/23/13, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefoothaven

Do many people use the w.e.t-back water heating system in the US? Where your wood burner or wood stove heats your hot water cylinder.

Interesting, found this link for more info, thanks for sharing.

http://www.righthouse.co.nz/products/hot-water/-------

EDIT: Upon further inspection that website is great for off the grid research.

Rick · #29 07/23/13, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJadeI

ok, I know the basic concept of off the grid... being self reliant, not using city water/power etc..

but...

what about phone, internet, tv service? that sort of thing?

TV i have no problem going without, my tvs have recently been stolen, and honestly don't have any intention of replacing them. However, I'm not sure how to go about phone and internet?? I know there are people on here that are off the grid, but clearly still online. so how do you make it work?

or is off the grid not really OFF the grid? also, does anyone know if you HAVE to have an address? like if you build your own house, can you choose to not have a mailbox, only use a PO Box? or something similar?

thanks in advance

We have no wired electricity,
No one can force you to have a mailbox, but it helps if you have one or two pieces of mail you need to get and don't want to pay for a po box.

Some people here could go to the Library or town to use wifi or use a cell phone to get online. I amonline via a hotspot on my cell phone right now. We had phone and DSL working nicely until the Gas Fracing crew severed my line Friday. BTW my DSL Modem / Router and a HP Pavilion Laptop uses 15 to 20 watts tops!

I gave the County 911 office my exact directions how to follow the stone road up the double switchback road because the official 911 address for here, is not there LOL.

Ernie · #30 07/23/13, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

We have no wired electricity,
No one can force you to have a mailbox, but it helps if you have one or two pieces of mail you need to get and don't want to pay for a po box.

Some people here could go to the Library or town to use wifi or use a cell phone to get online. I amonline via a hotspot on my cell phone right now. We had phone and DSL working nicely until the Gas Fracing crew severed my line Friday. BTW my DSL Modem / Router and a HP Pavilion Laptop uses 15 to 20 watts tops!

I gave the County 911 office my exact directions how to follow the stone road up the double switchback road because the official 911 address for here, is not there LOL.

They can't force you to get a mail box, but they will assign you a 911 address whether you want one or not.

I had that fun conversation with the county clerk when we moved out here.

"Show me where your driveway is going to be so I can assign your address."

"We'll get our mail in town."

"This has nothing to do with the mail. It's so the police or fire department can find you in an emergency. If you were being robbed, wouldn't you want the police to know how to get to you?"

"I'd tell them to drive down my road and there will be a body waiting there for them to pick up."

"What if your house was on fire? How would you tell the fire department where it is?"

"I'd tell them to look for the smoke."

Nimrod · #31 07/23/13, 10:25 AM

JoPa,
You have to own your own big tank and you have to find a local propane company that will sell you the valves and hose to connect to the 20 pounders. Most of them won't because they are afraid of liability. Filling 20 lb propane tanks

Ernie,
I like the way you think, "look for the smoke" LOL I would probably point out that the house would be gone by the time the fire dept. could get there.
I just ordered a 19 inch LED TV with DVD player that runs on AC or DC and uses 24 watts maximum.

K-9 · #32 07/23/13, 10:59 AM

In most areas, the 911 address is simply the point where the driveway leaves the public road, obviously on large tracts the house could be a long ways from there. I don't know who or what you are hiding from but unless you are very careful, and you can't be that careful working a public job, they will be able to find you. Since a restraining order was mentioned, I assume it is some type of stalker, the best solution to that is to be a hard target rather than hiding. I look for trouble from no one but if they bring it to me, I will protect myself, and my family with a vengeance. The other reasons for the property are more than sufficient reason to have property though. Hope you find what you are looking for.

partndn · #33 07/23/13, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindamarie

We have been off grid for 13 years. All electric and phone lines stop 3 miles from our home. We have a 3 mile dirt road/driveway, have to cross 2 creeks and go thru 3 locked gates to get to our place. We have 2-55 watt solar panels and a generator to charge batteries when several cloudy days in a row. Our water is gravity fed from a spring 700ft away. We have no refrigerator and use a root cellar, spring house, garden and can our meats. Hot water comes from solar in summer and tubing run thru woodstove in winter. Cooking is done on wood cookstove when to hot in summer I use an older propane stove that we haul our own propane tanks the 20# size. We heat with wood only. We have a windows phone thru Verizon and get our internet thru phone. Mail is po box, but we have a 911 physical address not that anyone could ever get out here. No television or cable but we do watch an occasional movie on a portable DVD player. Road is strictly 4wd and sometimes that doesn't work. Have gotten stuck many times and have had to hike the 3 miles to get to where we park car so that we can get to town. Have enough food,supplies to last about a year. Thanks to Verizon we just got internet had a cell phone but only got online recently back here. We live in southern west Virginia on a mountain and I wouldn't trade the privacy and peace and quiet that we have for anything. And no we were not raised in the country we are both from newyork (Manhattan and Brooklyn). My husband got hurt years ago and we made some changes. We decided to live on his disability and I would stay home. We live on $836. a month his disability, we get no food stamps or other government assistance. If we had to live in town and have all the bills and debt that go with it we couldn't do it on that amount. It took awhile to get used to living offgrid but I couldn't be happier. Good luck to you��

I want to live with you real bad..

Please?
I'll put me a cabin a good distance from you... and leave you alone as much as you want.
I could cook for you if you want
help with the garden, etc.
chop wood.. hm? okay?

all joking aside, you've described pretty much my dream. best to ya!

Molly Mckee · #34 07/23/13, 11:43 AM

Are you aware that WA state photographs all land every 4 years or so, and checks the photos for things built without permits ect.

I do think you need to study the WA water rights laws, you keep mentioning things to use the river water for. That is not always possible, and a good way to find a serious lawsuit.

katlupe · #35 07/23/13, 11:50 AM

For us, living off-the-grid means being off the power grid. No power lines to our house.

When we moved here, this house did not have an address and I had to go to the post office and they made one for us. At that time our mailbox had to be a mile away on another dirt road. Over the years, the new mailman worked with the post office to convince them we needed one in front of our house. We did. I have an online business and needed to mail packages from our mailbox.

Our internet comes from a satellite. The cellphone works fine and we are totally surrounded by acres of state forest. We do not choose to have television, though I imagine if we wanted it, we could get it here. With a dish probably.

We have a propane stove. When we first moved here we had a propane refrigerator too. We haven't used a refrigerator for at least 6 or 7 years. This week we just ordered a Sundanzer refrigerator. We were saving for it, so sacrificed using a gas one. I mostly use a wood cook stove for cooking, but in the morning start the coffee on the propane one (which does not have a glow bar). Now I am on the challenge of getting rid of the propane stove. Might take a bit, but I think we can do it. Soon we will have more "conveniences" using our system (solar and wind), which started out with one panel and 4 batteries. I think if someone wants to do it, they should. Just start small and learn as you build it.

Ernie · #36 07/23/13, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katlupe

I think if someone wants to do it, they should. Just start small and learn as you build it.

It's really not that hard. If I can do it, anyone can. When we pulled up into the pasture which was to be our new off-grid home, I couldn't explain the difference between AC and DC. Now I've got a working solar power system that works fine for us.

lindamarie · #37 07/23/13, 12:46 PM

Where did you order your sundanzer from? We have talked about getting a refrigerator but still undecided. We use deep cycle marine batteries or really large ones off of bulldozers with our panels. They last a good long while. We are surrounded by forest but not national, nearest neighbors 6 miles away. I don't mind using the wood cookstove year round as when we built kitchen we put in lots of windows to allow for ventilation. Propane is good though when in a hurry or when grandkids are here and want breakfast NOW!

We had a similar conversation when trying to get an address: what if there's a fire, what if burglars, what if a medical emergency. We are pretty much on our own...fire extinguishers, buckets and pond, intruders will be bear food, medical emergency I was an army nurse.

I don't really miss having a washing machine, all laundry done by hand but a wringer would be nice. We do use a laundromat for large things like blankets and coats.

Hard to believe that I once wore heels, hose and makeup just about everyday

katlupe · #38 07/23/13, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindamarie

Where did you order your sundanzer from? We have talked about getting a refrigerator but still undecided. We use deep cycle marine batteries or really large ones off of bulldozers with our panels. They last a good long while. We are surrounded by forest but not national, nearest neighbors 6 miles away. I don't mind using the wood cookstove year round as when we built kitchen we put in lots of windows to allow for ventilation. Propane is good though when in a hurry or when grandkids are here and want breakfast NOW!

We had a similar conversation when trying to get an address: what if there's a fire, what if burglars, what if a medical emergency. We are pretty much on our own...fire extinguishers, buckets and pond, intruders will be bear food, medical emergency I was an army nurse.

I don't really miss having a washing machine, all laundry done by hand but a wringer would be nice. We do use a laundromat for large things like blankets and coats.

Hard to believe that I once wore heels, hose and makeup just about everyday

I use the wood cookstove almost all the time too. We moved our grill to our deck now and have been doing a lot of cooking on that during this hot summer.

The Sundanzer is available lots of places. I think my husband ordered it right from Amazon. It was the best price. Ships from Texas. I met someone who used the Sundanzer refrigerator and the freezer and he said it used less than his laptop. I have wanted it for a long time.

At first, I didn't miss the washing machine either. But after time, and I am in my sixties now, washing laundry by hand is not fun anymore. I can't walk real good and it is a chore. I am fortunate enough to have husband who has taken that job over for me. It is not fair to him, as he does an awful lot of work around here as it is. We already have the machine, and had the power to run it, just needed the running water. We will have that before winter.

Ernie · #39 07/23/13, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katlupe

I use the wood cookstove almost all the time too. We moved our grill to our deck now and have been doing a lot of cooking on that during this hot summer.

The Sundanzer is available lots of places. I think my husband ordered it right from Amazon. It was the best price. Ships from Texas. I met someone who used the Sundanzer refrigerator and the freezer and he said it used less than his laptop. I have wanted it for a long time.

At first, I didn't miss the washing machine either. But after time, and I am in my sixties now, washing laundry by hand is not fun anymore. I can't walk real good and it is a chore. I am fortunate enough to have husband who has taken that job over for me. It is not fair to him, as he does an awful lot of work around here as it is. We already have the machine, and had the power to run it, just needed the running water. We will have that before winter.

Propane is our summer fuel. In winter we have the woodstove going all the time so we cook on it then, but in the summer we use the outdoor propane stove. I live in an arid scrubland and trees are scarce and precious. Our propane costs are about $25 every 2 months.

katlupe · #40 07/23/13, 04:55 PM

We have two wood stoves, a big heating one that has a huge top. It will hold 4 big canners on it with room left over. So I cook on it a lot and that is how we heat our water all winter. I love cooking on the wood cook stove. Food comes out so much better. Trees are plentiful here. Surrounds us. The propane, I am eager to get rid of. It's been great, but time to move on.