Should we just go Off-Grid?

As enthusiastic as I am on off grid power, it seems to me that the piece that adds to the value of the assessment is when one is making a land purchase decision. Assuming two properties are essentially the same, both without power, but one near by and one a long distance, the one at long distance should be priced considerably less. This savings can be applied to the economic analysis in to offset the cost of power (grid or off grid)


BUT

Once you own the powerless property, each decision is incremental (ie on its own)

Regarding cost benefit analysis

Paul Gipe's recent book on Wind Power has a pretty good spreadheet to work form to calculate basic economics of Windpower vs. Grid Power. Key to the analysis is the discount rate ... it should be the mortage interest rate PLUS a bit to reflect your true opportuniy costs of money.


My experiece to date in northern climates for homeowner size wind systems and PV systems ..... very rarely economic. As unthrilling conservation is (insulation, habits, etc.) these have been the true economic winners. Off grid. PV/Wind ... socially desireable, makes one feel good, great hobby... ok ok ... just don't confuse the two issues.

best
owhn

There are some good solar companies in Canada (cheaper than the U.S.). Google on "solar power" and "Canada". They have charts to figure how much power you'll need. Also a lot of advice on systems, appliances, etc. Given the option, especially on new construction, I'd go off-grid in a heartbeat, for many reasons. The naysayers mostly haven't researched it in depth. What I've learned is this:

You can't expect to heat (or cool) your home with typical solar systems. Think about passive solar. Design your house for energy efficiency with insulation, proper orientation to the sun, thermal mass, etc. etc.
You'll need to cut down on the number of applicances and carefully consider what type of appliances and light fixtures you buy.
As mentioned by another poster, put every cent into extra panels.
The biggest energy hog is the fridge. Also you can make an ordinary fridge incredibly energy efficient by simply lining the inside with Mylar and insulating the exterior with foam panels.

There are a lot of tips and tricks: For example, microwaves are good, but don't buy one with a digital display--they use a surprising amount of power 24/7. In fact, it's suggested you either buy appliances, TVs, stereos, etc., without the displays or disable them.

My 2 cents: However much electricity costs today, it's bound to cost more tommorow (propane is high also). Look at gas prices! And if we truly start to run low on oil, or the Mideast situation gets worse, you can expect utility costs to skyrocket.

Research it online. There's a lot of info out there.

P.S. I almost forgot, Washington State has a rebate program for folks who opt for solar/wind. You must be in a situation where grid power was an option (which is the case for you). The rebates can be thousands of dollars, check it out. They have a website.

Since your hot water, stove, and dryer are all propane I think you are an excellant candidate for staying off grid. If it was me I would consider just going with the solar. If you have a decent amount of batteries I believe you would do just fine using solar and having a backup generator. If you moderate your elecrical usage during extended periods of cloudy weather I think you might only need to fire up the generator a few times a year. Solar has the benefit of being very low maintanence, modular (meaning it is easy to add to the system), and portable if you decide to move. Wind is more expensive, the maintenance can be annoying, and unless you are in a very nice site and sure you will be there forever I think too costly. Try a solar system, moderate your needs with availability, and if it doesn't work for you hook up to the grid at a later date. I think you can do it.

Just because you hook up to the grid doesn't mean you have to use it, or you can use it to your advantage by selling back power and breaking even or making a small profit. It is not going to be any cheaper to hook up to the grid later, in case you need to sell the place due to some emergency (although at that time you may be able to write it off as a selling expense provided you have the income to deduct it against). Also, unless you're generating your own propane, honestly, you're just on a different grid.

You also can save energy usage by changing your food preparation habits. Say only one cooked meal, and keep the rest in thermal containers for the day.


Are you building one of these homes?

http://www.enertia.com/

Janon makes an excellent point about conservation, but the one thing you can't conserve on is your "basic charge" per month (just for the privilege of being hooked up), and that is whether you use a little electricity or a lot. Also, depending upon where one lives there may or may not be taxes on top of your utilities, which you probably won't pay if you generate your own power.

So, you may want to look into hooking up to the grid, but check with the utility about not turning it on after they test to make sure it works, and/or selling energy back.

One thing I forgot--one problem with conserving on the grid is that the utilities COUNT on people wasting energy, running AC, the heater and so forth during certain times of the year. There have been several instances when rates were raised to compensate for mass conservation efforts (the latest for example during the Enron-manufactured "crisis") in order for the utilities to make their budgets. They scream conserve, conserve, so they don't have to build new power plants, but jack up the rates all the same.


If you were off grid, this would not affect you.

A popular notion but a pipe dream that will never happen. MANY states utilities dont require a utility to pay you anything even if you do pump power back into the system and even if they do they pay you wholesale rates that are a small fraction of what they charge you for the power. Utlitiies often require elaborate and expensive interface devices to "protect" there system (and wallet) from your system.
There are grid tied system, where you use solar for power util you exceed your solar generation capability then pick up the remaining power from the grid. Problem with this is SO much of your monthly bill is "fees' , generation cost, transport cost and not actual KW/H cost that grid ties dont often saveyou enough to again justify the cost.

__________________
Gary in Central Ohio

Joy et al....

Hi:

If you are really, really interested in analyzing (rather than just talking) about your options, let me suggest you look into the HOMER software published FREE from NREL.

There is a newer version out soon, but even the current version will let you compare solar, hydro, wind and local fossil generators with any permutation you can imagine, including grid connections.

just google homer NREL

National Renewable Energy Labs are great technical folks. A jewel in "your paying for it" government. USE it. You need to register for the download, and reregister every six months to keep using it.

If you try and need help in running the model email me and I'd be glad to give a few pointers.

best
owhn

Couple more things to look at as well. I've been kicking the idea of "alternative energy" and "new construction" for a couple of years now. The best combinations that I've come up with so far are SIP panel constructed homes (with R factors of between R 25 and R 40 for walls and roofs),"pre-poured" foundation walls - I've misplaced the actual name for them in my brain at the moment but when poured in a controlled environment concrete can achieve strengths of 5000 + PSI as opposed to 3500 +/- when poured onsite. 5000 PSI also decreases the chance of water seepage and increases the R value as well. SIP panel and foundation construction also tend to cost a bit more than stick frame construction but the trade off is that the labor costs decrease as construction takes less time/fewer man hours.

Solar is next on my list to study closely. Have yet to run any real cost analysis numbers. But depending on state/county/town you may be able to get a break on property taxes if you use "alternative energies".

Geothermal energy is also on my list to look at for heating/cooling and hot water. If the HERS rating on the building is high enough you may be able to become rated as an "energy star' home. Of course, when you build a home as airtight as this may be you're going to need air handlers in order to constantly exchange the air and keep the quality healthy.

Hope this helps at least a little....

One thing that i did not think to mention earlier. If you have solar only and not any grid connections you may be unable to get a mortgage. That may not matter to you know but if you decide to sell later, they cant get a mortgage either, and neither can you kids if you leave the place to them. I have been trying for two years to get a mortgage on my place, always turned down for alternative power set up. just thought you should know, of course it could change in the future if the MORTGAGE COMPANIES WOULD JUST OPEN THEIR MINDS!!!

Alternative energies are 'non polluting'? Everything pollutes... the making and disposing of batteries, the shipping, the manufacturing, etc. etc. If you drive a car, a tractor or even run a lawn mower... that bit of pollution you've saved (if you've even saved any) by using alternative energies is a drop in the perverbial ocean.

Think carefully... you can easily drop $10k on an alternative setup. That $10k system may only have a lifespan of 10 years and will produce only a fraction of the power of a grid connection.

The big question is... why would you consider doing this? I honestly have no idea why anyone would want to do something like create their own electricity unless they absolutely had no choice. I seriously doubt anyone can show you that an alternative electricity source will be more cost effective than a $6k grid connection. Self sufficiency? Not a chance... because the guy that fires up his 220v welder or air compressor to fix a problem or make a few extra bucks is just as self sufficient as someone who installs a solar system... and firing up a 220v welder off a bunch of batteries is not going to happen.

You'd be better off by building a more energy efficient house or purchasing energy efficient appliances (like a washing machine) than by going off-grid.

Life is short... don't make it more difficult than it has to be.

cheers,

__________________
Cheers from Southern Ontario CANADA!

Janon your hydro bill must be a heck of a lot cheaper than mine cause I'd drop 30k in a heart beat to go off grid. Its only senior family politics that keep me in check. Your very correct to say you might be able to earn your energy bill easier than saving it, but I already reinvest most of my income now so any savings in power equal savings or reinvestment I will benefit from. Besides any energy sacrifice I might make would only satisfy the feeling I have that that we all consume too darn much anyhow. Still I'd keep Ont Hydro as a back up system as its already here but only if it would produce a near zero bill if unused. With McGuinty in power I'll wager not using a watt would still cost me $200 a month!!

__________________
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup........

Thanks again for the input. I'm very fortunate to not have to deal with a mortgage company on this place, since I have a decent line-of-credit with the local farming bank. That will keep us from having to get a mortgage. Never thought of down the road if there was a time that we had to sell. New owners would have a hard time getting financing...hmm.

One thing we are having a problem with is the property owner on the next farm over. He lives across the country (a New York politician) and we have to tie into a pole in one of his fields. The power company requires him to provide a copy of his deed as well as his signature allowing the power company to access the pole that we will tie into. Another pole will be needed on his place near the property line and then a copule of poles on our place. The power company has yet to receive any information from him. We won't be able to get power until he provides all the paperwork. Now, this is a fella who delayed the construction for two years on a much needed bridge replacement in the small farming town here. I guess politicians love to flex their muscles and make life miserable for everybody.

There's another pole that we could tie in to but it's 1/2 mile further down the road and the costs will increase to well over $17k. Ouch! So, this is the main reason why we are considering the alternative source for power to the place.

__________________
Joy at Secretplace Farm

..................Joy , depending on how observant and sophisticated your NY neighbor IS, he may already be aware of how much extra it will cost You to tie into the alternate power source. Therefore , he is going to want to be Compensated for his initial outlay if he paid for the power lines being run to his property ....OR....He is going to want to be paid a portion of the extra cost of your NOT having to tie into the Other power source. Maybe he feels like he is saving you money .........fordy...