Why small farms can not feed the world anymore...

Truckinguy · #**301** 04/28/14, 09:41 AM

Before worrying about feeding the world, I think we need to seriously look at what the world eats. There are two things to think about: the amount of food and the type of food. The North American diet (and likely most first world countries) is way out of hand. We eat far more then we need to and throw out a shameful amount of food. We also eat a diet that is, in many ways, unhealthy. If we all ate a simple diet with only the portions we need to be healthy, we could feed the world easily. Of course, what would be the fun in that?

Dixie Bee Acres · #**302** 04/28/14, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEKE01

That may or may not be a fair question. If farm time means you can't do your paying job, then by all means, look at those lost wages as a cost. If your farm time means you are doing a pleasurable hobby in your otherwise free time, that pork chop is profitable in many ways.

The amount of time it takes to raise a couple of weaners is minimal and few people don't have that kind of free time.

That's exactly it. Of course right now I am unemployed, have been for about 7 or 7.5 months. Every time I mention applying for a job, or sending a resume, my wife throws a fit. Our bills, including utilities, house and car payment, etc, equal about $1400 a month, my wifes income covers that comfortably, and she has good insurance through her company.

When we figured up the amount of money we save on heating costs by me supplying firewood over having to pay for lp gas, and how much money we save by me tending to the gardens, and animals, and butchering, canning, freezing, etc, verses working away from home and having to spend quite a bit more on groceries, plus gas money in my 10mile per gallon truck to drive back and forth to a job every day, just to pretty much break even, i would need a $15+ per hour job, and those aren't to be had around here.

So, even though the homestead is my full time job, I don't figure in wages as part of it. Living this lifestyle isn't so much about making money for my family as much as it is about saving money, while having the piece of mind that our kids aren't like so many others who have to come home to an empty house after school every day.

Sure, we can make a few bucks here and there from the homestead, mainly in egg sales, or by mid summer, some produce sales, but taking care of my family from my property, on my terms, isn't about paying myself $$ to do it.

**highlands** · #**303** 04/29/14, 02:19 PM

That's about the way we figure it too. Off farm jobs cost too much. On top of having to earn money to pay gas, vehicle, town cloths, etc there are more taxes with earning more money - not just income taxes but SS, FUTA, FICA, Medicade, etc. Better to be frugal. It takes a high paying job to make it worth working off farm and then we would lose time as a family, be exhausted, etc. I would rather be exhausted farming.

lmrose · #**304** 04/29/14, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelZ

Up where I live, the growing season is about 4 months, if that. It is tough even to break even on a small dairy farm. The 3 dairy farmers I know have sold out and nearly all "farming" is of the hobby sort. Once exception is a local pick-your-own berry farm. One needs a somewhat better climate than what we have. One could "live off the land" up here, provided they had a job that paid enough! Seems like to make a living off farming these days you need to either be very big or raise specialty crops or animals that wealthy people are willing to pay good money for.

Our growing season here in southren Nova Scotia is alsio getting shorter it seems. For 28 years we have farmed here and my husband who is 69 yrs grerw up on a farm. There was good and bad weather but you could count on enough good weather for making hay and growing crops. Now the past several years the weather is unpredictable and it would be foolish for us to try to farm the way we used to. We have changed drastically how we do things.

There are people here interested in growing gardens though and done on a small scale by individuals it is possible to beat the weather and wildlife and help feed your family.. It is alot of work when many folks would rather do fun things. For those willing , gardening and raising small farm animals is still possible. Our local garden club has switched from raising flowers to learning to grow vegetables!

To feed the starving millions of people it would take a monumental effort and total co-operation between world leaders . It would take structuring organic farm programs to the climate and culture of varying societies. Given the mind set of various leaders this won't happen any time soon. Even using conventional farm methods won't work if people can't get along with eachother. The world needs a major intervention. Until then those who have means can only try to help those who are without food.

InvalidID · #**305** 04/29/14, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

Every year there are new farms starting up in my state.

Every year we have more farms.

Every year we have new Farmer's Markets opening.

Yes, you can argue that these are not 'real' farms. They are not 1,000,000,000 acre farms owned by Kraft or Monsanto. These are family farms where farmers earn a living by farming. I know, that not every one considers that a 'real' farm, blah blah blah.

There is a sub-culture where small farms are growing and where it is possible to earn a living from farming.

I produce food. I market food in a Farmer's Market, along side many other farmers who likewise produce and market food from their farms. Some are helped by jobs in town, and some are not.

I do not know any farmer around here who is eligible for Farm Bill subsidies.

It's an interesting thing isn't it? I'm in Kittery right now, my family is looking for either a farm or some land to break. There are a few spots in York county I'd really consider buying right now and I know I could make a fair living with.

All this while I hear about how backward and poor the state is. For poor people, we sure do eat well....

ChristieAcres · #**306** 04/29/14, 06:47 PM

After reading a number of posts, I am very grateful... Why? DH and I truly enjoy fishing, crabbing, and shrimping, and it isn't recreationally motivated. It is because we catch enough to cover all of our expenses and usually much more in actual food value. We both enjoy foraging for mushrooms and pick a lot of Chanterelles each year. If we wanted to, we could pick extra to sell. Both of us enjoy gardening, harvesting our own fruit, and preserving. DH likes to hunt, feels pride in producing meat for the table... Time? We both put in plenty of hours to produce income, but spend most of our spare time living a homesteading lifestyle. Since neither of us watch tv, play computer games, or have other non-productive hobbies? Everything we enjoy doing, also contributes to our more self-sustaining lifestyle.

big rockpile · #**307** 04/29/14, 08:47 PM

I grew up in a time when young folks worked Truck Farms, things were done by hand, Low Wages. Me and my Ex made $20 a day Chopping Cotton and Beans.

I went to work at the Feed Mill. Everything came in 100# Burlap Bags, we unloaded and loaded Box Cars fast as we could. I found myself working for the same company later in life. Most came in 50# Bags, I had young Kids working under me, did ok with 50# Bags but every so often we would go to 60# Bags, the Guys couldn't handle the extra 10#.

My Son is always talking about me having stuff laid up for months at a time. I do things when weather and time of year call for it to be done. Some times my body says no which will slow me down but usually I'm very close to having enough. My Son will wait until the last minute to get stuff done.

Some times we eat things that so many turn their nose up to. Wild Greens, Rough Fish, Road Kill and Animals that people just don't eat anymore like Coons, Groundhogs and Possums.

big rockpile

Bellyman · #**308** 04/29/14, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truckinguy

Before worrying about feeding the world, I think we need to seriously look at what the world eats. There are two things to think about: the amount of food and the type of food. The North American diet (and likely most first world countries) is way out of hand. We eat far more then we need to and throw out a shameful amount of food. We also eat a diet that is, in many ways, unhealthy. If we all ate a simple diet with only the portions we need to be healthy, we could feed the world easily. Of course, what would be the fun in that?

You bring up some interesting ideas. "Feeding the world" is a noble concept. But "what are they being fed?" is a perfectly legitimate question.

There is a lot of healthy eating that goes way beyond corn, wheat and soybeans.

big rockpile · #**309** 04/29/14, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorichristie

After reading a number of posts, I am very grateful... Why? DH and I truly enjoy fishing, crabbing, and shrimping, and it isn't recreationally motivated. It is because we catch enough to cover all of our expenses and usually much more in actual food value. We both enjoy foraging for mushrooms and pick a lot of Chanterelles each year. If we wanted to, we could pick extra to sell. Both of us enjoy gardening, harvesting our own fruit, and preserving. DH likes to hunt, feels pride in producing meat for the table... Time? We both put in plenty of hours to produce income, but spend most of our spare time living a homesteading lifestyle. Since neither of us watch tv, play computer games, or have other non-productive hobbies? Everything we enjoy doing, also contributes to our more self-sustaining lifestyle.

Thing s around here Government and Animal Rights people have stepped in to shut down people Fishing, Hunting and Trapping to make any money off the land.

I know when I was 17 I made enough Trapping and Hunting to buy our first Farm. Them days around here are gone.

big rockpile

ET1 SS · #**310** 04/29/14, 09:02 PM

In some parts of the country, you can lease 10 acres, put in a garden. Work it with a shovel and hoe, earn enough to support yourself, and buy that land.

I see young folks doing this exact thing in this area.

Small farms are doing it.

gimpyrancher · #**311** 04/29/14, 09:28 PM

IMHO, farming was never meant to feed the world. Farming was meant to feed the family and the immediate community. It wasn't a world market back then. We need to be smaller to be relevant and profitable.

kycn · #**312** 04/30/14, 08:11 AM

I've only read through 1/2 of the thread, I'm really enjoying it! All the diverse opinions! I think part of the reason for the differing opinions is that it is such a complex system it is hard to see all the different parts and there effect on us. I read an article awhile back about corn and its effect on how we eat. All the manufactured "ready to eat" meals and how many different corn byproducts there are as cheap fillers and sweeteners. I couldn't find that article, but I did find an interesting one (don't know how to copy link on my smartphone), here is the info below:
Scientific American, Rethinking America's Corn System, Mar 5, 13
Basically, in my opinion, we have created an ag system that revolves around corn, is heavily subsidized and skews our entire food system.
I'm sure there are many more articles out there.

crwilson · #**313** 04/30/14, 01:05 PM

americans are so funny they think they provide the world everything in reality the reverse is true . there are over 2.6 billion subsistence farmers world wide providing 97 percent of the food in developing nations. the american war machine marches in and steals all there resources . where will u employ these 2.6 billion people once u steal there land for big ag and oil. and how would they pay for your toxic food. just because most americans are to fat and lazzy to grow anything dosent mean the rest of the world cant. take away the trillions you steal from developing nations and the us would be worse of than Haiti or Uganda

crwilson · #**314** 04/30/14, 01:10 PM

the truth is without cheap stolen oil you couldnt even run big ag in your own country . now take away 500 millin peoples hoes and tell me where the price of oil heads and how long it lasts

DEKE01 · #**315** 04/30/14, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crwilson

americans are so funny they think they provide the world everything in reality the reverse is true . there are over 2.6 billion subsistence farmers world wide providing 97 percent of the food in developing nations. the american war machine marches in and steals all there resources . where will u employ these 2.6 billion people once u steal there land for big ag and oil. and how would they pay for your toxic food. just because most americans are to fat and lazzy to grow anything dosent mean the rest of the world cant. take away the trillions you steal from developing nations and the us would be worse of than Haiti or Uganda

Anti-post of the day

I won't bother to provide facts to refute what you're saying because I don't think they matter to you.

PennyV · #**316** 04/30/14, 01:26 PM

Since I last posted in this thread, we've had a change in living situation. I am even firmer in my belief, that we will be able to grow most of our produce on our land within the next 10 years. With our plans for an orchard and some livestock, we're hoping to start making a little cash off of our land some day, too. Ultimately, if I were able to buy in what I can't produce, in the way of food, with the revenue from selling what I don't need, I would view us as successful. But we're a long way from that.

From living in a townhome, where every sunny spot of the exterior was covered in containers, and plants growing vertically up from them, we now have a cottage built some time in the early '40s, on 7+ acres 30 minutes from where we used to live, a chicken coop, and a "barn" (I use that term loosely. It's more like a hay shed with two lean to stalls). In true Pacific Northwest spirit, most of our property is neglected pasture overrun with blackberries, that was vacant for 10 years before we moved in.

After looking into it a great deal, I believe I can feed our family off this land, as I develop it, and with time, as the orchard we're putting in matures, I should be able to make some money selling our extras. If I get fiber animals, I'll be able to sell their wool to crafters, and have a supply for my own projects, and sheep's milk, lamb, and mutton for the table from the culls.

I know it's overly simplified, but I came across an infographic, that lays out roughly how much land you need to be self-sufficient. I don't look at it as an absolute, as there is local variation, but my gut-instinct to start turning roughly 2 acres of our 7-ish into a garden and orchard, rehab the rotting wood lot, and clean up and fence in the old pastures seems to be supported in both literature, and more modern research.

I know I'm never going to be able to feed the whole world off of our land, but we're taking steps towards feeding first our family, and then expanding to maybe being able to provide food at least part of the year for neighbors, and possibly have a farm stand by the driveway, and later sell some produce at a local farmers' market... The tree trimming guy who supplies me with wood chips is a great resource, as he has a 10 acre market garden that produces enough food for sale, and he's happy to talk to young ones, as he drops off a truckload of wood chips or spoiled hay, or other organic material I happily dig into our garden.

Like clockwork, my husband leaves for work in town in the morning, so we can pay the mortgage (he used to be able to cross the street on foot to work, now it's 21 miles each way). In true pioneer wife fashion, I'm the one breaking sod, digging up rocks, adding manure, borrowing a neighbor's tractor, and planting things in the brand new garden as our seedlings slowly grow to size. At the same time, as expected, I cook, clean, bake, make cheese and yogurt, can and dehydrate as much food I am able to every year, and just do my darndest to pitch in. I still have time to help the neighbor work with their horses every now and then.

It's hard work, but at the end of a day, taking a bath and drinking a cup of tea I steeped from herbs from my own garden gives me a sense of satisfaction I was missing, when I was living in the city. (My sister-in-law's statement when she unfriended me on facebook recently, that I'm "mooching off of her brother" is, in the context of running through what I do in a day, every day, extra hilarious. She's elected to be, and stay on welfare since she was 18, as it's easier for her. To each their own, I guess...)

The dilapidated chicken coop will be repaired and ready for pullets this week. It won't feed the world, but if I get pullets within the next month, I can kiss grocery store eggs goodbye, and will have extra eggs for the neighbor who lets me borrow their tractor. She's also getting the first basket of "extras" out of my garden, when I start having some, as she's a great help now that I'm 7 months pregnant.

What we have to do is to take baby steps, but as someone said, we should think local, before we think global. I am not a pioneer, whose entire future depends on getting this garden in the ground and producing in the first year, I may not be able to feed the world, but if I, a few years down the road, can feed my family with some extras for sale, or for barter with neighbors, like with the tractor example, I'll view my project a success. I might not be able to feed hundreds, or even dozens of people, but if I feed my own, and provide extras to other families, I'm helping them ease their reliance on supermarkets. Even if it's just with one or two produce items to start with.

watcher · #**317** 04/30/14, 01:34 PM

I think a lot of people have missed the point of the OP. In this day and age there are too many people living in cities for small farms to feed them. If you were to follow the Khmer Rouge thinking and drive people out of cities and into the countryside to work on small farms then those small farms MIGHT be able to feed the world. But as long as there are around 25,000,000 people living in just 10 cities in the US you are not going to be able to economically (and I don't think physically) supply enough food with Pa working 40 acres with a pair of mules.

Dixie Bee Acres · #**318** 04/30/14, 01:36 PM

Amen!

DEKE01 · #**319** 04/30/14, 02:04 PM

Remembering that the topic is why small farms can not feed the world...

In a recent thread about CAFOs, I posted similar info. The US produces ~100M swine / year with a human population of ~320M. We export 20% of hog production so 80M pigs / 320M ppl = roughly each American eats a quarter pig a year. If one third of the US population raised just 1 pig a year, we would have more pork than we do today. If 10% of the US population raised 2 moderately sized litters a year, we would have 5 times the amount of pork we do today.

If 10% of Americans raised 7 litters / yr (say 3 sows producing 8 piglets / litter) the entire ~7B population of the world could eat just as much pork as Americans do today and that assumes that no one else in the world raises any pork.

The argument against this might be that millions of extra acres of corn would have to be produced to feed all these pigs, but not necessarily. Small time pig farmers do a much better job of utilizing local "waste" streams. My 2 pigs and 7 chickens eat the left overs from a hospital cafeteria and a nursing home. If I don't take this food, it goes in the landfill. My neighbor has 4 - 5 sows in production and last summer he fed tons of potatoes that a local processor decided were too far gone for human food. The cannery sent more to the landfill than my neighbor got. My DW's uncle feeds out of date Frito Lay inventory that he gets for free. At times, his family will sit around watching TV, opening bag after bag of chips and snacks, dumping them into big buckets. Collected food makes no sense for a CAFO because it doesn't fit into their automated systems.

US beef production thru USDA plants is ~34M. So 10% of the US population raising 2 cattle / year would double our production, reduce prices, increase exports, increase jobs.

There is no question we CAN feed the world and that we can do it without CAFOs. What we lack is enough desire to make it happen. My Cuban friend tells me every family that can find a weaner piglet raises it under their house, feeding scavenged food. To do that in the US would take lots of changes in attitudes and local law.

Bellyman · #**320** 04/30/14, 02:30 PM

It is interesting that exports of fruits and vegetables from the US have been smaller than imports of fruits and vegetables for quite a few years. (We export a little over half what we import from the numbers I could find.)

It is also interesting that there is so much tillable land that is used for purposes of growing non-food crops (e.g. ethanol, oils for biodiesel, even pharmaceuticals).

I also wonder how profitable or unprofitable agriculture would be if it were not subsidized at all or how the future of ag would look if those subsidies were to be removed over a period of, say, 5 years.

Just as I question whether the government is all that good at running health care, I'm not so sure they're all that good at running agriculture either. I tend to believe the free market will work things out better than the micromanaging of politicians.

Just the thoughts that are passing through the ol' gray matter at the moment.