Why small farms can not feed the world anymore...

Bellyman · #**281** 04/27/14, 10:12 AM

I saw a video, (rather lengthy, if I recall), don't remember from when or where, that featured Elliot Coleman. Quite the character.

One thing I remembered from his lecture was that if someone tells him he can't do something, he's all the more determined to find a way to do it. And he's done some pretty remarkable things that previously were thought to be foolish to even consider trying.

If you think you can't, you probably can't. If you think you can, there's probably a way that it can happen.

clinchbilly · #**282** 04/27/14, 01:03 PM

I live in a very rural part of Tenn. there is no more than a half dozen gardens being grown on the thirteen mile road i live on. Everybody use to make their living by growing tobacco, so farming is not a new thing. Most that grow their own food is the ones that have moved in from other states. Room for gardens is not the issue, no quarter acre lots here, all over an acre, some over hundred acres. I know mountain land is not the best growing land, but its ok just takes a little more work.
Everybody loves the thought of growing what they eat, but most will not take the time or effort it takes. Weve lived on our small farm for a little over a year. Last year i plowed up a little over a acre and a half. This year ive got around four acres plowed. When people sees it they act like im crazy. When i tell them i am slowly trying to grow all we eat then they really thing im crazy. I love farming it gives me great joy to grow my own food. Im afraid that people are slowing losing the skills that are needed to grow gardens, no one is interested any more. Whenever im working in the garden i try to take my boys and teach them all i know. My uncle and great uncle loves to talk about farming. I try to listen and learn as much as i can so i can pass it on down. But im one of the few where i live that has any interest in saving the past. If something dont happen it will die.......then where will we be.

Hardship Hills

Muleman · #**283** 04/27/14, 01:23 PM

I have read bits and pieces of this thread. Yes, it is an old thread, but judging by the interest, just as relevant today as when it was started. I think most would agree, we are never going back to where everyone lives on their own little farm and produces their own food, no more than we will all stop driving cars and go back to horse transportation. Technology moves us ahead, like it or not!! We also have to realize not everyone shares our interest in farming? Just a fact !! Some people have other interest and hobbies. There is no one size fits all, "Here is the reason small farming is going away" There are many different reasons and many different situations.
I say be honest with yourself. Short of the Zombie Apocalypse. Large CAFO operations will continue to provide most of the world food supply. Just be content to have the ability to grow your own, be content to teach those who are interested around you, be content to have a small group of customers who value what you do enough to buy your products. Accept the fact that organic or naturally grown or whatever, is just not that important to everyone. Many people like the idea of farming, few want the responsibility. They are just not that interested, just as I am not that interested in computers, but to some people computers are their life. You can never successfully force your values on another person, who has no interest in adopting them.

partndn · #**284** 04/27/14, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muleman

I have read bits and pieces of this thread. Yes, it is an old thread, but judging by the interest, just as relevant today as when it was started. I think most would agree, we are never going back to where everyone lives on their own little farm and produces their own food, no more than we will all stop driving cars and go back to horse transportation. Technology moves us ahead, like it or not!! We also have to realize not everyone shares our interest in farming? Just a fact !! Some people have other interest and hobbies. There is no one size fits all, "Here is the reason small farming is going away" There are many different reasons and many different situations.
I say be honest with yourself. Short of the Zombie Apocalypse. Large CAFO operations will continue to provide most of the world food supply. Just be content to have the ability to grow your own, be content to teach those who are interested around you, be content to have a small group of customers who value what you do enough to buy your products. Accept the fact that organic or naturally grown or whatever, is just not that important to everyone. Many people like the idea of farming, few want the responsibility. They are just not that interested, just as I am not that interested in computers, but to some people computers are their life. You can never successfully force your values on another person, who has no interest in adopting them.

That's very realistic. Sometimes we (I know I do) spend too much energy wondering why some people don't "get it," when we are better spent with our energy benefitting our own independence. I didn't have the benefit of growing up in a "grow your own" environment. This is one of the reasons I look here for a lot of knowledge in the ways I am interested in.
If we feel called to do so, I think it's so important to teach our own kids, and others who seek to know, what can be passed on. Outside of that, there's no forcing anyone.

Mike in Ohio · #**285** 04/27/14, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darntootin

Truth be told, I could feed 40-50 people on my farm if I were to dedicate myself and land to producing food. But I don't because all the regulations, subsidies and taxes that have been created to disincentivize small farming. They have created an artificial market for middlemen and massive volume producing agribusiness.

How can I compete with someone who receives a government subsidy? How can I make a profit if I have to pay a state processing center to do all my butchering, and pay the transport both ways? Then I have to keep mandatory insurances, pay out 1/3rd of every dollar I make to the government, pay the broker, or pay to sell at a market. Why is raw milk such a crime now? Because it takes the 'cut' away from large pasteurization interests and allows the small farmer to compete with big ag.

Some here may be right, small farms can't feed the world....because our government, which has been bought by large corporate interests, will not allow it.

There is a good market for freezer beef (at least where I am). There is also a good ethnic market for sheep and goats. If you try to compete with large producers head on you will likely lose as a small producer. Work smarter, not harder.

Mike

**highlands** · #**286** 04/27/14, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

there are still companies out there which make buggy whips but does that mean we are going to see buggy whip companies popping up all over the nation? My point is just because a few small farms can make it that does not mean small farming as a whole will work today.

Hmm... This might be a regional issue. I live in a region where there are a lot of small farms doing well. There are about 1,000 dairy farms in our state, and they get most of the attention in the media, but there are about 8,000 other farms many of which are like us - they are what the farmer's do, how they make their living. That's not a buggy whip convention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

Again its all economically driven. If the economy is going good more people have and/or are willing to spend more money on better cuts or better quality meat. But if the economy takes a bad turn those people are going to start cutting spending and start buying cheaper cuts or lower quality meats.

That's part of why we sell both high end cuts, low end cuts, CSA's, Whole Pigs, Roasters and live feeder weaner piglets. Each hits a different part of the economic and social market.

It is normal for the economy to cycle up and down. I've watched it for over half a century. Studying history shows that effect going back as long as we have history. During the low times we get more demand for feeder piglets because people want to save money and raise their own over the summer. By offering a wide variety of products across the economic spectrum we are ready for the swings. Any producer in any field needs to take this into account. The economic swings aren't unique to farming.

Cheers,

-Walter

DJ in WA · #**287** 04/27/14, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

I didn't read all the post but the reason small farms are gone until things fall apart is economy of scale. Which do you think is more efficient (mechanically and economically) to have a generator for each house in a town or one large power plant supplying them all? Now which do you think is more efficient one tractor working 1,000 acres or 10 tractors working 100 acres each? Also if you have 1,000 acres and make $100/acre you have an income of $100,000 but if you have 100 acres and make $100/acre you only have $10,000 . Not many people can live on $10K/year.

This assumes you use a tractor. I submit that it is more efficient for every homeowner to use a shovel. I once had our kids go dig 15 minutes a day, and its amazing how much ground can be covered.

Which gets back to the title. It says small farms "cannot" feed the world. What I read everyone saying is we just don't want to, which is true. If we had to, we could. People could be growing food instead of a lawn, they could have livestock instead of horses they don't ride, and they could till the soil by hand instead of going to the gym they pay a membership for. Could even afford some equipment instead of the boats, big trucks, or other recreational stuff people buy and operate. No end to the waste going on instead of growing food.

When I was age 8 or 9, in the 60's, we would go out and hoe weeds on a sizable church welfare farm. They don't do that anymore.

I am watching golf on TV. That could be growing food. We could have all the city kids over there digging and planting. But we allow them to do nothing, then wonder what to do about the obesity epidemic.

Of course, as long as energy is relatively cheap, we aren't going to use manual labor. With cheap energy, we can use those efficient, big tractors. And of course, we've invested trillions in wars to get that cheap energy. That is money taken from us all - money we could have used to be more self-sufficient.

Anyway, it is certainly possible, we just don't want to.

Dixie Bee Acres · #**288** 04/27/14, 05:45 PM

My small, very small farm will never feed the masses, but when the masses aren't being fed, my family is. It may be cold hearted and selfish to have this attitude, but my attitude is, to take care of my family,, my responsibility, if you want your family taken care of, that's up to you.

With a half acre+ garden, fruit trees, pigs, chickens (layers and broilers), turkeys, abundant deer population, well, we provide a good portion of our food.
By next spring we will also have one or two calves, and a group of rabbits.

Nope, we won't feed the masses, but oh well, we will massively feed us.

V-NH · #**289** 04/27/14, 07:15 PM

I would love to be able to operate an actual farm. Unfortunately, the cost to purchase one is far too high. I would love to simply purchase some land and start building something on my own, but in New Hampshire most of the land available is forested. I don't have the skills to knock down 20 acres of forest and turn it into pasture and farmland. I'm also not interested in spending five years of my life trying to accomplish that. When I browse for farmland in NH, I regularly see properties exceeding $1,000,000. My wife and I are young teachers, so that is way outside of our price range. I've already done the math and at the height of our careers it is unlikely that we will be able to spend more than $300,000 on a piece of property. Based on what I have seen available, that will only get us a few acres with a house on it.

We currently live in a 1,600 sq ft. house on one acre. We've got 20 chickens and 4 goats. We also raise 50+ broilers in the summer, plus turkeys, geese, and ducks. Next year we might add a pig so that we have our own pork. That is the most we can do given the high cost of farmland in New Hampshire. I honestly don't see how anyone can afford to pay for a $1,000,000 property in a field with such low profit margins. It's just not realistic, so old farms end up getting sold to wealthy individuals with no intention of farming on them or developers seeking to gut them.

InvalidID · #**290** 04/27/14, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V-NH

I would love to be able to operate an actual farm. Unfortunately, the cost to purchase one is far too high. I would love to simply purchase some land and start building something on my own, but in New Hampshire most of the land available is forested. I don't have the skills to knock down 20 acres of forest and turn it into pasture and farmland. I'm also not interested in spending five years of my life trying to accomplish that. When I browse for farmland in NH, I regularly see properties exceeding $1,000,000. My wife and I are young teachers, so that is way outside of our price range. I've already done the math and at the height of our careers it is unlikely that we will be able to spend more than $300,000 on a piece of property. Based on what I have seen available, that will only get us a few acres with a house on it.

We currently live in a 1,600 sq ft. house on one acre. We've got 20 chickens and 4 goats. We also raise 50+ broilers in the summer, plus turkeys, geese, and ducks. Next year we might add a pig so that we have our own pork. That is the most we can do given the high cost of farmland in New Hampshire. I honestly don't see how anyone can afford to pay for a $1,000,000 property in a field with such low profit margins. It's just not realistic, so old farms end up getting sold to wealthy individuals with no intention of farming on them or developers seeking to gut them.

Move to Maine....

ET1 SS · #**291** 04/27/14, 07:47 PM

Every year there are new farms starting up in my state.

Every year we have more farms.

Every year we have new Farmer's Markets opening.

Yes, you can argue that these are not 'real' farms. They are not 1,000,000,000 acre farms owned by Kraft or Monsanto. These are family farms where farmers earn a living by farming. I know, that not every one considers that a 'real' farm, blah blah blah.

There is a sub-culture where small farms are growing and where it is possible to earn a living from farming.

I produce food. I market food in a Farmer's Market, along side many other farmers who likewise produce and market food from their farms. Some are helped by jobs in town, and some are not.

I do not know any farmer around here who is eligible for Farm Bill subsidies.

ET1 SS · #**292** 04/27/14, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V-NH

... When I browse for farmland in NH, I regularly see properties exceeding $1,000,000.

We paid $350/acre and $900/acre for our two parcels of land. Our taxes run $1.05/acre.

Quote:

... We currently live in a 1,600 sq ft. house on one acre. We've got 20 chickens and 4 goats. We also raise 50+ broilers in the summer, plus turkeys, geese, and ducks. Next year we might add a pig so that we have our own pork. That is the most we can do given the high cost of farmland in New Hampshire. I honestly don't see how anyone can afford to pay for a $1,000,000 property in a field with such low profit margins. It's just not realistic, so old farms end up getting sold to wealthy individuals with no intention of farming on them or developers seeking to gut them.

We have 150 acres with 1/4 mile of river frontage, a 2400 sq ft house [built '05]. We breed pigs, free ranging in the forest. 10 acres of fiddleheads, 100 mature maples for tapping. Most of our land is woodlot.

We sell honey, veggies, maple, fiddleheads, eggs, pork, herbs.

I imagine that your area may be too urban. What is your population-density like?

Want to stay somewhere below 10 per square-mile.

watcher · #**293** 04/27/14, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highlands

Hmm... This might be a regional issue. I live in a region where there are a lot of small farms doing well. There are about 1,000 dairy farms in our state, and they get most of the attention in the media, but there are about 8,000 other farms many of which are like us - they are what the farmer's do, how they make their living. That's not a buggy whip convention.

That's true. Its hard to have a big farm in areas where the terrain makes it practically impossible to have 20 acres of workable land in one track.

watcher · #**294** 04/27/14, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ in WA

This assumes you use a tractor. I submit that it is more efficient for every homeowner to use a shovel. I once had our kids go dig 15 minutes a day, and its amazing how much ground can be covered.

Which gets back to the title. It says small farms "cannot" feed the world. What I read everyone saying is we just don't want to, which is true. If we had to, we could. People could be growing food instead of a lawn, they could have livestock instead of horses they don't ride, and they could till the soil by hand instead of going to the gym they pay a membership for. Could even afford some equipment instead of the boats, big trucks, or other recreational stuff people buy and operate. No end to the waste going on instead of growing food.

When I was age 8 or 9, in the 60's, we would go out and hoe weeds on a sizable church welfare farm. They don't do that anymore.

I am watching golf on TV. That could be growing food. We could have all the city kids over there digging and planting. But we allow them to do nothing, then wonder what to do about the obesity epidemic.

Of course, as long as energy is relatively cheap, we aren't going to use manual labor. With cheap energy, we can use those efficient, big tractors. And of course, we've invested trillions in wars to get that cheap energy. That is money taken from us all - money we could have used to be more self-sufficient.

Anyway, it is certainly possible, we just don't want to.

And just where are the people living here going to dig?

Why small farms can not feed the world anymore... - Homesteading Questions

Muleman · #**295** 04/27/14, 08:13 PM

I believe everyone could farm, if they wanted to. I have read some previous post and this is not aimed at any one person, but everyone, who says they cannot farm. I do not farm full time. I am building a farm and plan to work at home in the future and am following my plan. Why not now, because I want a certain amount of infrastructure paid for in order to be able to have the things I want and live on the much smaller income I know farming will supply. I am sacrificing time at home and many of life's amenities to pour everything into a farm. It takes time, but I am not sitting back saying I want to I just can't!!
So here are some excuses I hear quite often as to,Why can I not farm?
- Land is to expensive where I live! This translates to, I do not want to farm bad enough to actually move, or give up my nice house to live in a much older farm house.
- I would not make enough money! This translates to, I would not make enough money to maintain the lifestyle I am accustomed to and buy all the cool things I want.
- I do not have the skill to grow crops and animals! This translates to, it is not important enough for me to make an effort to learn.
- I do not have the time! This translates to, I do not enjoy farming enough to give up other things I like to do more.
The fact is if you want to farm bad enough you will make it happen. Most people want things on their own terms. No small farmer is rich, No small farmer has company health care. No small farmer drives a new truck and lives in a big house and goes to town to be entertained on the weekend. You will give up some of life's niceties if you become a farmer. if you are not willing to make these sacrifices, then you must simply admit there are things you like more than farming. This is not saying anything bad, just being honest with yourself. I like the idea of farming, just not the responsibility that comes with it. This is why small farmers will never feed the world. There are just to many shiny new things out there that lure people away from a labor intensive, low wage farm job, no matter how much they claim they love "the simple life", there are other things they like better.

watcher · #**296** 04/27/14, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dixie Bee Acres

My small, very small farm will never feed the masses, but when the masses aren't being fed, my family is. It may be cold hearted and selfish to have this attitude, but my attitude is, to take care of my family,, my responsibility, if you want your family taken care of, that's up to you.

With a half acre+ garden, fruit trees, pigs, chickens (layers and broilers), turkeys, abundant deer population, well, we provide a good portion of our food.
By next spring we will also have one or two calves, and a group of rabbits.

Nope, we won't feed the masses, but oh well, we will massively feed us.

Something to think about: How much does raising your own food cost? I'm not just talking about the money you spend on feed and such. I'm also talking about the cost in man hours. Most of the time when you count your labor even at minimum wage you will find that pork on your place cost a LOT more than the one your neighbor bought at the store.

Dixie Bee Acres · #**297** 04/27/14, 08:37 PM

Sorry but i don't even consider the idea of an hourly wage for my labor. When doing things for myself, why would I?
Do you figure out how much it costs you in labor wages to now your lawn? Play golf? Go fishing?

But just for the sake of argument, after the fence and shelter were built, as far as time per day to tend to my pigs and poultry: about 3 minutes in the morning and three minutes in the evening to carry a bucket of feed and a bucket of water to the pig pen, and about 3 minutes to feed and water poultry in the morning, amd about 10 minutes in the evening to feed, water, and collect eggs.

About once every couple of weeks I replace the bedding in pig hut and chicken coop, about an hour total, at most.

rambler · #**298** 04/27/14, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

Every year there are new farms starting up in my state.

Every year we have more farms.

Every year we have new Farmer's Markets opening.

Yes, you can argue that these are not 'real' farms. They are not 1,000,000,000 acre farms owned by Kraft or Monsanto. These are family farms where farmers earn a living by farming. I know, that not every one considers that a 'real' farm, blah blah blah.

There is a sub-culture where small farms are growing and where it is possible to earn a living from farming.

I produce food. I market food in a Farmer's Market, along side many other farmers who likewise produce and market food from their farms. Some are helped by jobs in town, and some are not.

I do not know any farmer around here who is eligible for Farm Bill subsidies.

The small market gardeners and CSA deals and all are pretty neat. They supply a fair amount of food.

In my climate, they supply some from end of May until about end of September. Close the doors the other 7 months of the year.

So....... Are they supplying all the food for people? Or are they supplying 5/12ths of the food? Sure folks can buy extra and can it, but we revert back to will people, do people know how, do people have the resources to do so....

Kraft is a large employer in my town, pretty well known company. I am unaware of them owning any farmland or dairy farms themselves. The milk and suck gets tricked from suppliers who gather it from privately owned family farms around the 3 state region.

Likewise, Monsanto does not own any farmland beyond some research farms. Even the seed they grow is contracted to be grown by regular, family type farmers on privately owned farm land.

I believe quite a few homesteaders and market garden farmers are elegable for the Biggest part of the farm Bill, probably most of those you know - the Snap and School lunch programs? Less than 1/5 of the farm bill goes towards any farming type programs. And of that, many small farmers are eligible but don't see the value in it - understandable, but they are eligible.

It is unfortunate we talk ourselves into little corners of lifestyles here as we do. I know I'm a part of that too.

We need to celebrate farming in general, and value our similarities.

You have made some assumptions that just aren't true, but the same on the other side.

Your contribution to the world by small scale farming or gardening or whatever we want to call it is good and valuable and what you do has a lot of worth. Something for you to be proud of.

The same can be said for my neighbor dairy farmer, and my friends that raise hogs, and grain farmers aground me.

And hopefully me too, with a small grain and beef farm.

All are family owned, yours and mine, all are a struggle with good and bad years, all are very rewarding when we work with, despite, and around Mother Nature.

As to feeding the world, people in general and governments seem to have the idea that mass food is the way to go for most folks. And people in general seem to not want to spend lots of time trying to feed themselves.

These feelings cross political and ethnic groups so it just seems to be, most people do not want to subsistence farm.

I'm glad there are folks like you and like me and people like on this web site that tend to want to grow their own, and enjoy the path to get there.

It isn't about corporations, or govt, or any of that.

Most people don't want to when they are faced with the actual work, and a few of us wouldn't want it any other way.....

Paul

wr · #**299** 04/27/14, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

Every year there are new farms starting up in my state.

Every year we have more farms.

Every year we have new Farmer's Markets opening.

Yes, you can argue that these are not 'real' farms. They are not 1,000,000,000 acre farms owned by Kraft or Monsanto. These are family farms where farmers earn a living by farming. I know, that not every one considers that a 'real' farm, blah blah blah.

There is a sub-culture where small farms are growing and where it is possible to earn a living from farming.

I produce food. I market food in a Farmer's Market, along side many other farmers who likewise produce and market food from their farms. Some are helped by jobs in town, and some are not.

I do not know any farmer around here who is eligible for Farm Bill subsidies.

I don't think anyone is critical of the small farm nor is anyone saying they can't be successful and I know many that are.

I strongly believe that there is a need to preserve small farms but realistically with the population and the demand for inexpensive food, I don't think North America can be economically fed without the big operations.

DEKE01 · #**300** 04/27/14, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

Something to think about: How much does raising your own food cost? I'm not just talking about the money you spend on feed and such. I'm also talking about the cost in man hours. Most of the time when you count your labor even at minimum wage you will find that pork on your place cost a LOT more than the one your neighbor bought at the store.

That may or may not be a fair question. If farm time means you can't do your paying job, then by all means, look at those lost wages as a cost. If your farm time means you are doing a pleasurable hobby in your otherwise free time, that pork chop is profitable in many ways.

The amount of time it takes to raise a couple of weaners is minimal and few people don't have that kind of free time.