Preg wife - take out loan for addition but we are debt free?

PorkChopsMmm · #41 04/17/13, 08:53 AM

Thanks for all of the help and support. I took some of your advice and sat down to talk to her last night about what she needs. Not how to build an addition, # of rooms, etc. but what she feels she needs to be a good mother, homeschooler, etc. We took those needs and prioritized them -- we found out some surprising info. She is good on waiting on things but she wants a plan and general timeframe -- e.g. expand onto the porch by next year, etc.

I always agreed we should add more space, a garage, etc. but our main disagreement was on how to do it -- loan and build it as quickly as possible vs. save and build in phases. I think if we build in phases we will save more money, I can do more myself, and we will end up being more modest with expansion due to really figuring out our needs.

BTW we have a playroom for the kids -- the upstairs had 2 kids rooms with bunks (pic of one below) with a somewhat large play area.

Play area.
Preg wife - take out loan for addition but we are debt free? - Homesteading Questions

One of the kids rooms.
Preg wife - take out loan for addition but we are debt free? - Homesteading Questions

1st floor -- stairs are different and furniture a little different, too.
Preg wife - take out loan for addition but we are debt free? - Homesteading Questions

2nd floor -- 2 rooms each with bunk beds and the play area.
Preg wife - take out loan for addition but we are debt free? - Homesteading Questions

Our kids are...
Girl - 6 (in own room)
Boy - 4 (in own room)
Girl - 2 (in baby room -- will move out to Girl 6 room before the new baby comes in October)

bluefish · #42 04/17/13, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otter

I am disgusted with the number of people here who are encouraging you to blow her off, tell her how things are going to be, and dismiss her problems as pregnancy and hormones, as if that makes her less of a person.
Disgusted.
Is this woman your partner in life, or isn't she?
I'm going to assume that you want a partner, and not a broodmare or slave as some would suggest you dismiss her as.

There are times in life when we really, really think we can do something. And then we try - and find we can't. We're miserable and unhappy and already upset with ourselves for failing at what we thought we could do, and having the one person that we love and trust more then any other shove "well, so-and-so did it just fine" in our faces sure as heck doesn't help any.

It does not matter who's grandmother, brother, cousin, aunt raised however many kids in a space just as small or smaller.

Your wife is telling you that she can't and you need to listen.
Just reading other things you've posted here before, clearly space is an ongoing irritation for her. You fail to see it as a problem and now she is ready to explode.

Why - are you all going to start peeing and showering 4 times as much?
I think you're BOTH over-reacting here.
Maybe insisting on 4 bathrooms is the only way she can get across to you that living with just one is driving her insane, and to heck that Great-Aunt Brenda raised 11 kids with nothing but an outhouse. In Alaska.

Listen - it happens. It happens to all of us. It happened to me. I was living and working on a farm when DH and I became a couple. He knew that all I wanted was my own farm. We had a 5 year business plan for crying out loud!
But when we got here, it was too much. He was overwhelmed. Everything became a fight, because all of this was a constant irritation to him.

But he's my partner.
So I talked to him. And more important, I listened. I told him that it wasn't fair the way he was destroying my dream - and then I told him that if he was this unhappy with it, we'd move. Off the land I'd wanted and saved for my whole life (and, if anyone's wondering, I was making the money, folks assume that a woman compromises to keep his paycheck coming, not so), and to the edge of town. I told him that I needed at least room for a garden and my favorite goat, and that I wanted to work towards this again, but if that's what it took to make him happy, so be it. Because I was not going to have us spending our lives making each other miserable.

And once he knew that I understood, really and truly, how unhappy and overwhelmed he was, and that his happiness was important to me, more important then anything else, then, he could listen. We could talk, and we could compromise. We didn't sell out and move townward. We did take on some debt for things that would make him more at ease.
We worked together, because that's what partners do.

Wow, really? I didn't see most people say to blow her off, but pregnancy is about hormones. I'm right in the middle of them myself. And, yes, I will admit that I am hormonal and feel sorry for my DH and my kids right now.

We don't know the whole story, but it sounded like she was doing ok til now. If she really was ok with things, she might be rather upset when baby is here and things calm down to find themselves $75,000 dollars in debt. I personally would kick myself forever for that mistake. But maybe she wouldn't. We're not there, we don't know. Why do you always go off on people who don't agree with you?

I think the OP did very well and apparently got things worked out, that's what matters. I think he was just looking for different points of view and suggestions as to what to do. Keyword being 'suggestions.' Long as he and his wife are BOTH (you seem to mostly think of his wife) happy with things/plans, that's what matters.

MJsLady · #43 04/17/13, 09:14 AM

PC, I think your set up is really sweet!
So what was the outcome of your discussion? If that is to nosy please ignore.
I understand completely wanting to have a plan in place. It drives me bonzo when I think we are doing things this way and suddenly Beloved decides to go that way, and usually assumes he has told me all about it when he hasn't!

78Parrothead · #44 04/17/13, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJsLady

Sounds like a case of baby brain. I would never risk going into debt again unless it was a life/death kind of emergency.

I would ask her if the new debt would be worth her putting the kids in public school so she could get a job and pay down the new debt.
Not in a mean way but to help her realize what debt would mean to your family if your job cut hours or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thermopkt

I had a nice reply typed out and then hit the wrong button and lost it all. ARGH!

...
I think MJ'sLady has an excellent point to bring up about having to work to help pay for the addition. I know I'd live (relatively) happily in a card board box to stay home with my kids. I do have to remind myself of that often at this stage, though. There are times that I'd like to be able to go in my room and lock the door so I don't have to hear the squabbling and nitpicking. My bedroom walls are blankets, though, so that ain't gonna happen. That's what I dream about most often lately, solid walls and doors.

I just have to say this about homeschooling. Parents that homeschool don't do it because it is an alternative to going to work. For a great many parents homeschooling is a sacrifice for the well-being of their children. There is no "put them in school so you can go back to work" at the drop of a hat or on a whim.

The reasons one homeschools won't just magically disappear because all of a sudden there is a money issue.

And using the homeschooling v. working against her like that won't win the OP any points.

MJsLady · #45 04/17/13, 09:26 AM

Chuck, I know that which is why I wrote what I did.
As a HSM she would understand the ramifications of the debt on their lifestyle.
While I myself did not homeschool my boys, I am 100% pro homeschool.
I feel horribly when I see families that do this have to change and go to public school when a job is lost or something. I do see it too.
As far as I am concerned caring for the home and schooling the children is the MOST important job a woman can have. The pay in $$ may be small but the rewards are life altering and life lasting. Then again though I am anti feminist.

PorkChopsMmm · #46 04/17/13, 09:34 AM

The outcome is to explore what our needs are, come up with a 'phased' building plan with estimated costs, and try to figure out how to make it happen in the next 5 years or so.

Thanks for the help everyone. My wife was a lot more at peace when I tried to listen to her and figure out what she needs. What's funny is she told me flat out she doesn't need relaxing time, time away from the kids, a get a way, etc. --- she needs more space!

Maura · #47 04/17/13, 11:22 AM

I hope it works out for you. 1200 sq ft is a small house, especially when those kids hit the teen years. You really do need to think about having four teenagers in the house. A four year old takes up the space of his body. A teen takes up four times the space of his body, even more.

sidepasser · #48 04/17/13, 11:39 AM

I am glad that you could sit down and find out the exact problem and have reached a way to get it without having to dive head first into debt.

I am very much against debt when one is already debt free although I know that sometimes there is no alternative. The reason is that if you own your own home free and clear, land is paid for - you have so many more options in life in the event that something "bad" happens. That "bad" something can be anything from a natural disaster to the loss of the main income or income earner to just a long, lingering illness for a family member. Any of those can be very bad things even when a home is paid for..but if the home is mortgaged, a bad thing can escalate into a horrific event that one cannot recover from.

I do like space though and am happy that you and your wife can find a way to make more space without having to borrow a lot of money to do so.

"SPIKE" · #49 04/17/13, 11:58 AM

Thanks for the pictures and the floor plans. Looks like you guys did good for a small family starter home.

Communication is good. More room is good. More debt is bad!

I WANT A PICTURE OF THE PORCH!

Can you expand another way without giving up the porch? LOL
It's just me, but I would miss my porch. Man needs a good porch to sit on to look out from and view his homestead! LOL

SPIKE

Edited to add; I feel sure you have covers on those electrical devices by now! LOL

cindy-e · #50 04/17/13, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PorkChopsMmm

Long story short -- we built a 1.5 story 24x32 house on 20 acres 2 years back that was meant to be more of a vacation home on some land we bought. Wife fell in love with the place and wanted to move in, knowing the place is smaller but finished inside as if it was a dream house and making efficient use of the space. We have lived here for a year now and are now pregnant with our 4th child, sex unknown. We have 2 kids rooms that each have bunkbeds -- enough for the 3 kids we have now and maybe even the 4th kid (if it's a boy it would go in the boys bunk room, if a girl who knows) and we also have a dedicated small baby room. Total sqft is ~1200.

My wife homeschools and is doing a great job with the space we have. Before she got too far in the pregnancy she mentioned possibly enclosing part of our front porch to expand the living room and add another 1/2 bath. That is do-able and with saving we could cash flow that and built it relatively soon. That has now changed into adding an attached 2 or 3 car garage with workshop with a second story with 3+ more bathrooms that would be way larger than the original house. She wants this addition yesterday and wants to take out a $75k loan to get it done fast. Having built up our first house and her thinking that she wants to hire a contractor to build the addition (to get it done even faster) I think even this amount would not be enough money for what she envisions.

I am really struggling here -- we worked really hard, ate beans and rice for a year, and have made do with less to be debt free. We live on 20 acres, own the house outright, etc. and I can't fathom why she would want to go in debt for space we don't even need right now. I have tried to make concessions for smaller additions that we do overtime and cash flow -- none of those ideas sound good to her.

I know part, a lot, or all of this is nesting and I feel called to not lead our family into what I feel is a large amount of debt for space we don't need right now (e.g. I don't need an attached garage with workshop if it means going into debt) and with money we don't have. It would take us 10 to 15 years to pay back the loan -- assuming our cars don't explode and Murphy doesn't come to visit.

Any advice or been-there-done-that? It's hard to tell your pregnant crying wife that you don't agree with her plans.

I think I'd negotiate to go with her first idea and see if that is enough to satisfy her need for more space. Tell her that her peace of mind is really important to you, but babies are small and don't take up a lot of room, and there is time to decide about such a huge investment, maybe even a couple of years. You don't have to do it now. you would rather wait until she has delivered because you don't want to be in the middle of a major project when the baby is born. So, you want to revisit the giant addition option after the birth of the child (which is enough of a life event), but in the mean time you will happily enclose the porch for her.
THEN- and this is very important! - I'm going to guess that your kids are pretty young and that your wife has not yet been able to benefit so much from the 20 acres because the kids have to be supervised and can't yet be allowed to run the property. So her *WHOLE* world is about 1200 square feet plus what ever small yard feels safe for she and the kids. You need to fix that. You need to help her get out of the house/off the propery more, and build her a play yard, or a picnic area for when she is there too... something accessible and safe. You need to help her clean the place up and have people over. Give her a girls night out with her friends. Any or all of that. She really isn't asking for a house, I don't think. She is asking for some care and understanding, and a way to expand her horizons. The house is only a symptom. small children are wonderful- and it is also very, very difficult, labor intensive season of life.
Hey, I don't know her, and I could be wrong, but I have had 4 small children in a small house while homeschooling before, and that is what it was for me. Good luck with it all.

FWIW,
Cindyc.

Wendy · #51 04/17/13, 12:18 PM

Love the house pics! I really like the way the bunk beds are & wish we would have had something like that before we added on. That is cool!

emdeengee · #52 04/17/13, 12:28 PM

I found your mention of the tools to be removed an interesting insight. Should not be there. I am a pathological organizer. I get this from my Mom who ran her tiny crowded home like clockwork. No one ever felt cramped. Possibly because my Mom never complained about a lack of space. Kids tend to mimic their parents. If Mama is happy everyone is happy. And you are only as happy as you make up your mind to be no matter your circumstances. You can feel you are rich and living in a mansion if that is the way you look at a one room apartment. Or you can feel deprived while actually living in a mansion if you only see problems.

My friends and family all bribe and blackmail me into helping them organize their homes, offices and anything else. I pretend to be put upon but secretly love it. Quite often there is a lot of space that is being wasted or misused and all it takes is reorganizing it. And sorting clutter and purging. The most important commodity in a small house is storage space. I did not see a mention of a basement? or garage.

I do think that a lot of people today do not see the outdoors as extended living space . We always included this as part of where we lived. Kids burned off enough energy outside so that when they were inside in our small house they did not require bouncing off the walls room.

doozie · #53 04/17/13, 12:51 PM

This post brings up many memories. I remember 5 people,pets and 1 bathroom in a little house. I would have loved a "west wing" or any addition at the time.
We used under the bed storage for clothing and our porch morphed into a dining room and eventually our bedroom for a while. We were cramped but never uncomfortable.
Some neighbors did build up and now their kids are gone, it seems time does fly and they now have a lot of unused? space to heat and cool.
I would definantly wait a year, or until the baby is mobile & save your money for any remodel ideas, and see if it will really matter in the long run.

meanwhile · #54 04/17/13, 12:56 PM

Look around and see what stuff can be moved out of the house. That will free up space. I can understand her need for more space. She might be choking for lack of space and just really need some "air".

I agree with those who said don't take out a loan, however, I think she is clearly saying she needs something....it does not have to be a whole half new house......but don't, please don't ignore her needs! Sounds like you are on the right track to figure it out.

We had to move a whole bunch of stuff out to our barn once. That helped lots. Also shelves help and those plastic boxes that shove under the bed helps too. See if the kids's beds have space to teach them to store things out of sight.

Be sure the children are helping out. Even young kids can be taught to put things up.

Is there room on a porch to move things? We have a huge front porch that we use for a dining room in summer. It is covered enough to keep the rain out. That porch has probably saved our life! We put clear plexiglass panels all around it and use it year round. See if you can use a porch more.

Good luck and I am sure you will get good ideas to help solve the space issue.

Ohio dreamer · #55 04/17/13, 01:29 PM

Not knowing the exact config of your house I'm not sure this will work....but... (OK...I missed the pics. Will go back and look and see if these post is still reasonable)

It sounds like she is feeling cramped up (having a little one sharing your body can do that,

). Could you ask her what the ONE thing she feels the house is most lacking....bathrooms, bedrooms, living room space, etc and then move forward from there.

I am assuming the kids have bedrooms upstairs and you and the misses are down stairs (seems like the normal 1.5 story house config). Could that covered porch turn into a bedroom and a half bath verses more living room? If you have a second boy...could that become the boys room (so baby is close to parents) and then the upstairs room that was your sons, become the "big kid" play room (getting kid clutter out from under her feet and a place kids can be loud while baby is sleeping). If you have a girl.....could your son move to the downstairs (porch), adjust the walls upstairs to enlarge the girls room - using half the vacant room- and add a bathroom up there in the other half of that space (I assume the current bath is on your main floor)?

That said I have NO CLUE what that would cost, but I assume less then a big attached garage with a second floor.

Another direction...how about a really nice shed with a second floor? Then you have a place to store out of season clothes, clothes to grow into, schoolbooks not being used this year but needed for the future, etc. The upstairs could be an playroom for kids. Move 90% of all toys out there, leaving only small quiet to-do's in the house. YOu could even make it a special "video room" for the family, a spot for a DVD player, TV and mini fridge for "special treats"on family movie night.

emdeengee · #56 04/17/13, 01:41 PM

Looking back over the years I can say with complete confidence that the biggest mistakes we made in life were when we were in "react" mode and not in "planning" mode. Taking the time to really research the cost and also the inconvenience of construction is about the best advice given by the posters. Every winter I get claustrophobic and want to move but when spring arrives I can't even remember what the fuss was about. In the past we would have been moved before we had time to realize we did not need to.

jen74145 · #57 04/17/13, 01:48 PM

I love those bunks. And climbing rocks instead of a ladder! How cool is that!

I have one kid and am drooling over that playspace. You guys do use your space well, but I see her point too. I'd probably be a bit panicky at the thought of four growing kids in 1200 sq feet... what is doable with littles doesn't sound so easy with bigger kids.

Glad you have come to an agreement. One that sounds workable and not as scary as diving 75K into debt over the course of a pregnancy, too.

Really, with how well you two use your space, even an enclosed porch will reap you big benefits.

ETA: My house is of a similar size, but we make tons of use of our yard. Having a securely fenced, safe, clean yard for my little boy to play in takes a load off my mind. We have windows situated so that I can always see him where he plays. I didn't have a yard like this until this year, and it's relatively cheap to do if you have a climate that makes it usable most of the year.

I still want to know how old your kids are, lol. I'm always a bit in awe of women who have a houseful of little people... I would lose my mind.