Winter livestock water trough opinions needed
 

I just bought a 6' livestock water trough. I decided I would put it between what will be the pig yard and the cow/goat yard for time and economic reasons. I figure I could screw in either a nipple water spigot or water bowl with a paddle in the drain plug. I just wonder which would be less likely to get froze up in Northern Wisconsin? Any opinions?

Also, since my livestock yard area is so far from the house I am going to use a gas run livestock water heater(they cost around $300). Have any of you used one or know of someone who has used on? Just how effective are they? I know of one person that uses one and he says it seems to work fine but, he is watering cows not pigs.

Thanks!
Katie

for that kind of money did you consider an insulated automatic waterer? some claim that they will remain unfrozen in the coldest weather, but i've heard they will freeze in extreme temps.

id you use a tank, bubbling propane through it might be cheaper than the heater.


jena

You could box the tank in and insulate it with sawdust all around and over most of the top. but keeping an add on pig drinker thawed could be a hassle.
Jena's recomendation is the best if you want to spend that much money. And so much more pleasant for you. Having the fountain in a protected building of some sort helps with the freeze ups. You will need an underground water line to the fountain. There are several brands and types of fountains. Some have electric heaters in them. Some are said to reguire no heat source other the the water or heat from the ground.

We have an automatic waterer(with heat tape around the pipes) and we are in Northeastern(30 miles from Canada) Montana. It will sometimes freeze over, but we just break up the ice and scoop it out. Or sometimes the float will freeze shut. All I do then is stick my hand inside it and jiggle the float a little and it's fine. This waterer is pretty old, probably at least 20 years, and knock on wood, we've never had a problem with it other than what I've already mentioned. Considering that we can have a week of near 20 below, I don't even consider that a problem.

I am on rented property. I can't justify installing something like that. Maybe I'll have to spend money for a soiux pig waterer after all come fall. I didn't like it because I would have to fill it more often I thought and I wasn't sure how well a poly tank would survive a propane stock tank heater.

.....on the other hand people raised hogs 100yrs ago without all our modern conveniences AND we still have hogs today so, they(hogs) must not have thirsted to death!There must be a way! I'll have to think on this a while I think putting sawdust(or cow manure due to the heat it will produce while it breaks down) around the outside of the tank isn't a bad idea though! I think a nipple waterer might be easier to break free from being frozen shut....I think if I were to attach a bowl waterer I might have to elevate the stock tank a little.

Whenever I get my own farm....Ritchie waterers will be put in.

We watered hogs without anything but a hog trough. We poured water in it about three times a day, but only as much as the would drink before it froze.
We got the water out of a stock tank like yours only bigger. We had our tank sitting up on concrete walls along both sides. The tank was almost a foot above the ground. We used old boards or fence posts to build a fire under it each morning. To make the fire draw good we stuck an old stove pipe in the east end and sealed the opening with dirt. A dash of coal oil on that wood made for an instant fire. By noon steam would be rising from the water. We laid a piece of sheet metal on the walls under the tank to prevent burning the bottom out of the tank. We drug the ashes out with a hoe when nessesary. The water would still be warm in the evening. WE never put anything around the tank for insulation but I would reccomend it.
If you had a tank with a built in hog drinker it would be easier to keep from freezing. Got one I'm not using.

Even it's not my property I would have to with a new automatic waterer from TSC. They only use 100 watts and can't be beat. a trough will use 1500 watts + Do the math.

mikell

Cow manure will freeze even while it is breaking down, so stuffing a void with it in small quantity might not be something you wanna do. sawdust may be better as long as you can keep it from becoming wet..... I have a sawmill, and have pulled ice out of my sawdust pile in July, after the snow melted in April.

Foam insulation may be your best option [spray foam will work as long as it has room for expansion for a while but has been known to pop loose boards if to much is used and no where to expand] as it wil stick to the trough and provide a leak tight seal, I however do not know personally if it is poisionous to any animal that might chew on it if given a chance.

I have painted metal troughs Black on one side to expose in the winter months to the south to gain some solar advantage which did help keep the ice to a minimum on that side in the coldest of north Idaho weather [not as cold as some other places geneally only gets to -15 or so for a few days]. Curently for our 2 horses i use a black plastic tub that holds about 25 gallons and fill it once a day, this past winter the ice did freeze solid in it, but turning it upside down, and pouring some hot water on it allowed the ice to drop out, ok that may not be an option for hogs watering.....

I know folks who cut in half old hot water heaters for both waters and feeders, advantage for wter is if it freezes dumping it out is even easier than my plastic barrel/tub.

Labor saving devices are nice, but with old Murphy looking over every livestock owners shoulder, a person should never rely on modern convience without having backup plan, frost free things are usually only frost resistant, and can feeze if given a chance.

just my opinion and some thoughts

William

In my opinion you can't justify what you have! :)

NO on the manure idea. Sawdust, foam, or sheets of foam yes. Probably not as good as a boughten one, or will cost you more that a good insulated one from the start would have, but you need something. But not manure.

You need underground pipe, & a propane heater, & a propane tank, and endless propane. Lots of $$$$. And mantenence. And when the flame goes out or the gas runs out, a whole lot of work to deal with the solid chunk. ;)

A Cobert (sp) underground frost resistant waterer would have cost the same as what you spent, needs no additional supplies, and only needs a hole augered in the ground to below frost. Would have been better, and less work, less money. They are a big plastic tube 6-8 feet deep, and the 55 degree soil down there curculates warm air up to the bowl of water, keeping it from freezing. Under the coldest & high wind chill conditions it can skim over, but requires little but a check once a day. You can mount it low enough & fence so both can drink - a little awkward but doable.

Otherwise if you insist one one you can unbolt & move easily, an insulated tank is a _must_, you are going to be heating the whole world this winter. A nipple will freeze solid, a flap will freeze solid.

You could have gotten an insulated dual tank - openning on top & opening on side for the 2 types of critters, and built for the cold.

Think you are in for a steep learning curve if you hit a winter like I did last year, minus 28F several nights in a row, a rather cold Jan & Feb here in southern Minnesota. Normally we get in the 20's durning the day, around 0 for a low on a 'typical' cold day.

Good luck, I hope it works for you, but it would all go back to the store if it were me & I'd start over.

In the old days we lived on the farm all winter, my farm house had a wood furnace for heat as the only source of heat through 1971, someone was at the house every 8 hours to feed the furnace. The livestock were checked at least 2 times, maybe 4-5 times, a day & offered water from a frost free hydrant. I suspect most of us (well, maybe several _here_, but in the general population...) no longer want to live that way, so you need to provide frost-free water & check it once a day.

--->Paul

Rambler,

I haven't spent the money for the propane heater or a 100lb propane tank. I only bought the galvanized water tank. The reason I posted about this now is due to the fact that people locally are not the most advanced. I know of no one who uses/owns automatic waterers. Stretching a series of electrical cords 100 yds to run an electric tank heater doesn't seem sensible though! I have never heard of Cobert equipment and I know the lovely landlord would not let me run a pipe out to the waterer but, am I grasping at straws when I think of getting a smaller water tank to put in their 3 sided shed with the hogs and another for the steers to do like wise?

I have 5 months to figure out alternatives.

How much electricity does a heater pull? Would it be feasible to set up a small solar panel and batter to run it? It would save on the cord, but I’m not sure if it would work or if it would be cost efficient.

Here is the web site of the freeze-proof no-energy waterer. There are other such. Before I forget! :)

http://www.cobett.com/

Perhaps I spoke out of turn.

Your system would work somewhat if it is indoors. But at first read, it sounds like it is outdoors? You would need shelter for the hogs at least, so is an indoor (out of the wind, body-heat from the livestock) location available? If you can keep the temp above 15 degrees much of the time, and above 25 most all of the time _and_ out of the wind, it takes a while to freeze, and the livestock have time to use up the water you supply.

There are some insulated/ solar / homemade type of deals that keep the water temp up, but they are quite a work of art, and rely upon water feeding into them as the livestock drink to keep the water temp up. Many start as an old construction tire, a plastic cover, poured cement in the bottom, and a water feed up the middle.

Additionally, I was assuming the water feed was already at or near this location, below the frost line in the ground. Now it sounds like there is no underground water supply. Are you bringing water with 5gal pails, & how many head of livestock are you watering? I guess I would do better if I understood the scope of the project a little better. You mention it is so far from the house, so I was figuring it was too far to carry water - cattle drink a _lot_, so now I'm left puzzled. :) You could do this the old fashioned way, just offer them water 2 times a day, _every_ day, as much as they drink & dump the excess before it melts. They do not need open water in front of them at _all_ times, esp if they have some snow to 'graze' on. But they do need water, you need to satisfy them 2 times a day, preferably shortly after they eat.

How do you currently water the livestock?

I'm guessing northern Wisconsin would have an equal climate to my southern minnesota, tho lake effects or other can cause things to be a lot different than I am thinking...

Sorry if I went off course on you, the project appeared differently to me. I'm not sure what you are starting with now, or how big a job it is.

I currently water 20-40 head of cattle without any heat. I run a normal float on a metal tank, and as long as they are drinking the water flows because it is bringing it's own heat or as long as the sun hits it, but I need to shut it off and get the water out when they stop as the pipe freezes. I have a typical burried line & frost-free hydrant. It's not a fun system - esp at -15 degrees. However, for next year - see the above web site. ;)

--->Paul

Batteries require they dont freeze, Trojan L-16 6 volt deep ccle batteries at my cost are $160.00 each, to keep the computer towers running we have 6 batteries in series, which due to an extremely hard cold snap this past winter even in our shelter froze and required replacement.

We have 3 120 watt solar panels on the tower, which cost $500.00 each, an airex wind genorator, and a gas generator for when the sun dont shine, and the wind wont blow....$450.00 plus 5 gallons of fuel for 4-6 hours and an battery charger.... not exactly someting that is cost effective for a watering situation or for lighting in my chicken house... we sit just above the 45 parelell in central idaho.... not to much dissimilar than Wisconsin i believe. We have a heater installed in the enclosure now that runs when the genset is operational, which is 3 days per week in the winter. The computer draws only about 500 watts which is considerably less than what a water heater would draw.

An electrical line running a 100 yards would have a considerable draw on it, and would need to be rather big, perhaps 6 gauge although a person might get by with 8. Either way it is not cheap, but if you do not run over it or plow through it it could be layed on top the ground and reeled up next spring and unreeled for the next winter season... requires a big spool and alot of muscle as well.

So that's a "NO" on the solar panel idea. :o

And here I thought I had the plan to save the world! :no:

I'm a stubborn cuss!! I found the waterers were cobett and I found this link(http://www.northfortynews.com/Archive/A200211sam.htm). Now I know what a propane bubbler was! I had no idea! Never heard of one before!

As for #of livestock 13 pigs in a 3 sided building and 5 - 6 head of stockers in another 3 sided building. And yes toting 5gal buckets of water or making a rig for my three point to carry 4 - 8 5gal water jugs.

I have searched all over the internet for a propane bubbler!! :waa: How do I make one of those animals? It claims they are not commercially available on a canadian site.

Lehman's has a solar and a battery bubbler. They state they're only good to zero degrees tho. Here's the link:
http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/prod...&iProductID=24

I remembered seeing it in the Lehman's catalog.

Stacy in NY

Just and idea;

A 300 - 1000 gal tank underground connected by pipe to stock tank and a overflow going back to underground tank. use of a jet pump would make continued water turnover ( or running water)

A float valve would maintain water in underground tank

A pump would be cheaper to run than a heater.

you would run it only on below freezing days

I get water from a spring which runs through a 300 gal poly stock tank and it never freezes

just a thought

What lehman's offers wouldn't work up here....we had one day with a windchill of -45. :(

I found some sort of description late last night that seemed to dangerous to me. The guy bought some lp gas hose and 3 electric aereator units and spliced them together. He noted be careful when doing this so they don't leak.

I'm torn between making my portable sheds bigger to accomidate stock tanks and the water bubbler. I'm afraid putting the tank inside the pig shed might be create more of a problem than a blessing!

Cashcrop, on another thought, if you start banking up the sides for insulation, how will you keep the hogs out of the tank so they don't foul the water? I've yet to raise a hog that could resist a wallow in their water tanks, and it surely wouldn't be healthy for the cattle. I can appreciate your delimna in trying to water both from one source, tho. Let us know what you end up doing and what works for you! Jan in Co

A sheltered air compressor, an aquarium stone, a long cheap platic tube, I'de go with metal tubing for the last length; the more accumulation you have for compressed air the less often the compressor would run. Maybe the cheapest way out and would be portable so you could reapply it at other locations if you move. Plus there is many advatages to haveing your own compresssor, tires, tools, ect.

Jan,

If I went with insulating a water tank I would put a shell around it. I didn't figure banking up the sides was a good idea! Sioux Steel makes some poly hog water tanks and the drinking area is installed right in the center of the side of the tank. They have traditional eliptical ones and 1/4 tanks that can be dual purpose livestock water tanks with up to 2 slots in the side for hogs. Right now I'm tending to lean toward buy a couple smaller water tanks to put in the buildings and utilize their natural body heat to keep the water thawed in the tank if I can't figureout how to make a propane bubbler.

THANK heavens I have 5 months to figure this out!!

I have seen people use a wood fired tank heater that goes inside the tank. you can find them but hot tub heaters that burn wood would also work but are sorta pricey. If your handy with a welder you could make your own all they are is a box that sits on short legs in the bottom of the tank and two pipes one thats welded lower on one side of the box and one on the other side and a baffle of some sort to regulate the air. i plan on buildining one somday. I may have to try a couple of time to get it right butits not like i am going to burn a metal stock tank down

somrtimes keeping it simple is the best way to go. rented land, not a permanent facility...minimize the work and investment. if it were me, i would buy a tank with a hog waterer on one side and run cords for an electric heater. 100 yards is not that far to run cords.

jena

Jena,

I may do it that way yet! Like I said I have 5 months to figure it out. I'm just trying to figureout the right balance of time and money for me. I don't have all the answers that's why I post on this board! I want to conserve money but, I also don't want to kill myself trying to keep them watered!

The thing that worry's me the most is the possibility of the landlord accidently doing something to my long line of cords! Does it make sense if I do it that way that I duct tape around by each connection? Would I be better off buying a roll of electrical wire, the plugs and making my own electric cord? Just some things to think about. If I do the electric tank heater.....I'll want opinions on the different heaters available. so, share them while you're at it folks! :worship:

Now, the roll of cord idea isn't a bad idea exactly - many do so - but making your own cord from a roll of wiring is not to code so we better not recommend that to you. Also, mixing water, electricity, cold, and livestock raises a shocking topic. Know & understand grounding, esp with a cord laying on the ground that the landlord (or you) can mess up..... In 5 months time it would not be too difficult to put that cord 18" deep tho, & then with grounding you would be legal...

I have another concern with all the devices mentioned so far - electric heater, propane heater, propane bubbler, wood heater. You do not have a constant source of water. You still plan on hauling water to the livestock during the day in buckets, right? So the water level in your tank will only be 'full' once a day, & the critters will likely drain it to empty in the next 24 hours.... These anti-ice devices don't like working with an empty tank. Some of them rely upon getting fresh 55 degree water to help with heating & keeping the tank from freezing - most esp the bubbler deal, it just curculates the water and uses up the heat contained in the water. Without a pipe & float supplying new water every few hours, it will freeze solid. The heaters might be thermo-controled, but might also overheat low-water tanks.

Really, with our climate and your lack of a water supply line & lack of electricity (legally anyhow), I think you might as well forget all the devices & just water them 2 times a day in a cold tank. You will need to work out a water trough for the hogs that they can't get into, not a nipple that freezes. And deal with it like that for a winter or 2. Unless your landlord works out running a water line & electrical line underground to this location (at least one, but if you dig in a water line for gosh sakes put in electric too), I don't see many good options. You need a good steady supply of one or the other at least - water or electricity - to make anything work out as planned.

--->Paul

revision of first idea :p

55 gal plastic drum located near your pressure tank for home
a toilet tank valve installed in side of drum near top
a 1" pvc line near bottom of drum going to a 1/2 to 3/4 horse pump
1" pvc to stock tank coming in at highest water level and a return
1" pvc back to drum at same water level as feed.
a valve to regulate water to stock tank.

drum
toilet float valve
pump (hot tub or pool pump)
200 ft of 1" pvc
fittings ?
less than $300

cost of running full time $15-$30 per month

maybe some strofoam insulation duct taped around stock tank
should not freeze

Paul when we had 21 head of stockers with a float type heater our cattle never even half emptied a water tank that is smaller than the one I have just purchased! As for the element possibly overheating I'm well aware of that having used livestock water tank heater before. I will never use a float type heater. We had to put barbed wired around the float because the cattle would chew on it otherwise. They also don't prevent the top from freezing over. I will still have to water twice a day whether it's heated or not.

when i run cords for the winter, i try to keep them away from where people drive. if they have to over a road, then i run the cord through an old hose to provide more protection. if there are connections, I try to tie them to something off theground, even a fence post. that way they don't get unplugged as easily and they can't end up laying in water.

one long cord would eliminate the connections problem.

i use regular tank heaters with the wire cage thing on them. if it's a plastic tank, I also wrap them whole thing in chicken wire. yes, they will chew on them if they can.

jena

Well, I'm either going to have to get two water tanks, get a sioux steel corp poly quarter tank(250 gallon). I know I want drain plug heating elements that are thermostatically controlled. My current water tank...one cannot install sidewall hog waterers and it holds 169 gallons of water......I suppose I could use it for summer time use and just buy the poly tank.

Paul why wouldn't an electrical wire made into an extension cord have a ground? The plugs one can buy at the local hardware store have a place for a ground wire. The electrical wire itself has three wires...one of those being a ground wire. I could plug it in the garage where there are electric sockets with grounds. What is the problem? I could see if I was in the house.....I have the old time electric sockets in here with no grounds.

Jena-


:worship: Thanks for another valuable lesson!!! :cool:

Katie

I have an old 80 gallon pressure tank cut in 1/2 the long way, laid on it's side for my water tank. so I'll guess 35 gallons when 'full'. I need to fill that 2-3 times in winter for 20-25 head, and the cattle also of course pick up a bit of snow on their own. This thing can freeze up solid, and not burst anything because of the rounded bottom.

I did not realize the size of the tank you bought. Wow. You are looking at 200 gal tanks. Wow. That gives you more thermal mass so it will not freeze quickly. Good. It means it will lose more heat than a 1500 watt heater can supply. So it will eventually freeze itself up to a solid block - absent sun or moderate temperatures every now & then. Not so good. The propane heater would work, tho expensive, with such a large amount of water if you keep it full. I was thinking you got the typical 40 gallon galvinised stock tank.

Also, you never said the actual distance to the nearest electricity. Someone said 100 yards, but don't remember you saying it? You should factor in the line loss with distance, and size wiring accordingly. You should probably have wire a size bigger for a long distance, or your wire will warm up a bit, & the heater will have less juice to deal with....

Natonal Electrical Code requires any livestock watering area have it's own ground rod(s) located by the water, it's own circut breaker, and GFCI (if I got the right device there....). We can argue if all that is needed or not - but legally, it's needed. And of course, wire over the top of the ground is not allowed either - by code. This affects insurance claims if things go badly for you. I'm not trying to get on a soapbox & tell you what you should or shouldn't do. Just making sure you understand the how's & why's. Lots of people get by with some sort of setup like this. Just so you know. It probably would be a good idea to try to get near code requiremets, even if you would happen to jurry rig something together. Water & electricity can be a bad thing.

What if on your long cord, the ground wire breaks? you only have the hot & nuteral left. You said it could get roughed up by the landlord - might be in a traffic area, or stretched by snowload.... What if one of your livestock chews on the cord? Without a good underground installation, can happen. Without a GFCI the critter touching water & bare wire will be fried. That critter could be a pig, steer, or a visiting kid.... Just a thought.

Note: My comments on how to wire & NEC code is based on my faulty memory from when I looked into setting up wiring at my water site, and you should _not_ use my 'for example' thoughts as _any_ sort of a guide. consult the NEC or any of the NEC guidebooks for a clear understanding. I'm not qualified to suggest actual wiring setups, and much of what you are planning is _far_ outside of the code & not something I or anyone else should advise on. These national codes keep getting more restrictive & more cumbersome, but the basic foundation of them is good and often protects us from things we never even thought of, but has already killed a bunch of other people.....

I hope my discussion helps you, but I don't want to be any type of limiting factor or nay-sayer on your plans. As more details come out, it changes how things look.


I would be careful of mixing water & electricity around big dumb animals. Cattle esp are very sensitive to stray voltage, there were several large lawsuits around here from dairies on that. Cattle can feel as little as 10v, and will avoid it. If your electrical system is not well balanced & puts out any stray voltage, your cattle may avoid the watering area entirely, nd stay parched rather than stick their nose in charged water. A Google search of 'stray voltage dairy' or something like it should turn up info on that.

--->Paul

Paul,

First of all I didn't want to argue I just wanted a better understanding of why.

Second of all years ago when I worked on a dairy farm there was a discussion on stray voltage. I understand it is a VERY BAD problem to have!! The farm I currently rent was a dairy farm till they had so many problems w/ stray voltage they quit dairying. Sometimes they never findout what causes stray voltage to my recollection. So, now back to the idea of a smaller tank inside a building. I didn't want to mix cattle w/ pigs in the same pen but, I don't think the cattle can create enough warmth to help the water tank from freezing but, the pigs can(I worked on a farrow to finish operation that used port-a-huts). Now, I will go to my Stockman's Handbook and try to estimate the total water usage a day expected with the pig/stocker #'s.

Katie

Use this calculator to determine the size of the wire for the heater you decide to use http://www.altronix.com/html/calc.htm . I posted a response yesterday but it must have gone into oblivion. For storage why not get an old chest type freezer which will already be insulated and install a heat tape inside mounted to the lid. A short length of heat tape to the drain valve should give you ice free water, shouldn't it?

Don't use electric heaters for the water. We had a 65 $$$ increase in our electric bill in one month with the heater on. We tried several other options but found that if we went down and filled with a hose (we rolled it up and brought it in the house last year but will be able to leave it out next year because we have the air compressor set up to blow it out. I kept a hammer (large) to break the ice and scoop it out. On those 25 below runs we had the waterer freeze almost completely. We ran the electric heater for 6 hours at a shot on those days to just get us room back in the waterer. It was much cheaper. Very hard to justify $$$$ for something that is a convenience.

Though the day that it was so cold that the hose froze while I was feeding the animals was enough to make me invent things ... the hose kinked ever so slightly so it was just a trickle. It froze solid in 5 minutes. The result: 150 foot of hose in our bathtub to thaw so we could finish chores!!! :(