Different raw milk thread

[haypoint]

Originally Posted by KrisD

And actually the estimate is more like a million + Americans drink raw milk every year. So not that small of a number.

Where did you find that bit of information? Just to be clear, do you mean year or day? Does a person that drinks raw milk every day show up on that estimate as one person or 365 persons? I'm not saying it isn't true, I've never heard this number before.


Oh sure, Monsanto is behind it somehow, too.

[KrisD]

I'm starting to think you are on these forums just to be contradictory, haypoint. No matter the subject you argue with it.
Raw meat is more dangerous then raw milk, Yet raw meat is legal to sell and raw milk is not in most places. Thousands of people get salmonella and e-coli, listeria, and campylobacter every year and no fuss is made yet if I sell raw milk to my neighbor the Feds will be here arresting me. Consumers Reports did a study on chicken from the grocery store and over 80% tested positive for campylobacter and salmonella. Why not the out cry? Because big Dairy doesn't want us selling raw milk, they don't want the competition. Big dairy pays for all those Got Milk ads and gives a lot of money to politicians.

[arabian knight]

Originally Posted by KrisD

Raw meat is more dangerous then raw milk, Yet raw meat is legal to sell and raw milk is not in most places. Thousands of people get salmonella and e-coli,

Well That is mostly peoples OWN Fault. They do not COOK the meat long enough to a HIGH Enough Temp..
And selling raw meat 99.99999999999999999999999% of the people KNOW to COOK IT at a Temperature.
Hmmm Raw Milk? Not cooked at all. There in lies the problem. Pasteurization has saved countless of lives.
And there is Ultra Pasteurization being used in both milk and eggs for long shelve life to no refrigeration needed in the case of Ultra Pasteurization Milk.

[SueMc]

Listeria associated with raw milk is thrown around in these discussions A LOT. For some reason there is never any discussion about illness and deaths associated with Listeria contamination in hot dogs, cantaloupes, deli turkey meat and on and on. The CDC does not just blame raw milk for these outbreaks.
Also, Guillain Barre associated with raw milk comes up on occasion. Go back and look at the rates of GB back in the 70's when the swine flu vaccine was pushed on the populace in the name of political fear of losing the presidential reelection by G. Ford.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbreak

Highly recommended older book with a chapter discussing the politics behind that fiasco:
http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Plague-...ue&tag=yjtv-20

Bottom line is, you drink and eat what you want and I'll do the same. Same with a lot of these other issues that get beat to death here.
I completely understand everyone having an opinion but don't get the sarcasm and insults that come in response to differing opinions (talking to HP for one).

[haypoint]

Originally Posted by KrisD

I'm starting to think you are on these forums just to be contradictory, haypoint. No matter the subject you argue with it.
Raw meat is more dangerous then raw milk, Yet raw meat is legal to sell and raw milk is not in most places. Thousands of people get salmonella and e-coli, listeria, and campylobacter every year and no fuss is made yet if I sell raw milk to my neighbor the Feds will be here arresting me. Consumers Reports did a study on chicken from the grocery store and over 80% tested positive for campylobacter and salmonella. Why not the out cry? Because big Dairy doesn't want us selling raw milk, they don't want the competition. Big dairy pays for all those Got Milk ads and gives a lot of money to politicians.

Often times when people discuss things there are differing opinions. There are generally some “hot button” topics. While you may often disagree with me, I assure you that my intentions are not to simply be contradictory. I also do not expect to change anyone’s mind. I try to offer factual information. I have done the “back to the land” thing. I once held to the same beliefs some of you here believe in. But I have learned that some of it is hog wash and some is only partly true. If you were to claim the government doesn’t allow the sale of raw milk, but allows the sale of raw meat, I’d want to put a qualifier to that statement.
If there were a growing movement to eat raw meat, you’d likely read my comments of the dangers of eating raw meat. In the million pound hamburger recalls, I’d prefer that the potentially tainted hamburger be labeled, “$1.00, cook well” and be done with it. It seems such a waste. But in the ongoing effort to assure the public that everything possible is being done to provide a safe food supply, it was better to throw it out.
Meat is marketed with the assumption that it will be cooked. Yet, meat is still highly regulated, tested and inspected. It is against the law for me to sell meat to my neighbor, just as it is illegal for me to sell raw milk to my neighbor. There are safeguards to the public food supply. You may chafe at the presents of government regulation, but it is you that chose to step from your homestead out into public commerce.
Chicken is a filthy animal. It is likely that bacteria will exist on chicken. That goes for the chickens scalded in the kettle on the picnic table in your back yard and the mechanically processed birds at Tyson. But that bacterium is killed by cooking. Eating raw chicken would be foolish.
Please stop with the silly notion that the Dairy Industry is worried about the tiny sliver of market share raw milk represents. I believe their bigger concern is that with the proliferation of raw milk dairies, and the corresponding sicknesses, people will reduce their consumption of all milk. They don’t want you messing with the market they have built. Florida spinach growers lost millions because of some tainted California spinach.
Yes, Dairy Asso. makes donations to politicians. It is also a fact that when the USDA asks for the opinions of many here on Homesteadingtoday, they shun the opportunity. Go ahead, throw out the survey. Treat their interest as an intrusion. But to then turn around and complain that the government isn’t doing the things you want it to seems contradictory.

[KrisD]

I did fill out my survey as did most others, so it's not like we don't want the help. But who actually gets the help? Not us little guys.

FWIW steak Tar Tar is raw yet still legal for restaurants to serve. I went to a high end restaurant recently and ordered the seared duck. As in seared only quickly on the skin side. The rest of it was completely raw. Why is that legal? There are many recipes for raw meat and fish both of which can kill you.

The governments stance is that raw milk is dangerous, well so it meat. FYI the Jack In The Box incident where 4kids died and 600 people were sickened. Yet Jack in the Box is still open for business. Still selling burgers. Morning land Dairy that was just down when the test for bacteria came back negative and not one person has been sickened. Yep everything is totally fair suuurrreee! Yep money doesn't influence it at all, uh huh. I guess money grows on trees too huh?

Have you watched Farmegeddon? If not you should. I don't know where you live but here it is perfectly legal to sell raw meat as long as you go to an approved butcher. I don't have to fill out any paperwork or pay to have any kind of license, etc. easy peasy. If I want to sell raw milk I have to have a licensed raw milk dairy that is inspected and tested every month. It will cost about 25k to do that, and there is still no promises that they won't come beat down your door, attest you and destroy everything you have.

You say you used to live this way and feel the same way but now you don't. So why hang out on HT if you don't feel like most of us do? I'm curious.

[haypoint]

I can’t speak for your state, but in Michigan there is all sorts of help for the family farmer and smaller growers. The university set up and ran our farmers market and has given away large hoop houses.
Seared steak is safe, whereas seared hamburger is not. From the contamination standpoint, that should be obvious.
I have noticed the disclaimer on menus recently. They give fair warning about eating under cooked foods.
Jack in the Box is a huge company. They lost millions. But they corrected the problem and are back in business. Morningland Dairy chose a different path. Morningland’s new owners’ refusal to permit inspections as their license requires, played a part in what turned out to be a legal battle.
In Michigan, I must take livestock to a USDA inspected facility, on the day the USDA inspector is there. The animal is killed there and then processed, that I can sell. If I take livestock to a USDA inspected slaughter facility, without an on site inspector, I can use the meat for myself and family, but not retail sale. I can however (sounds like dairy herd shares) sell a steer to 4 people, then take their steer to a slaughter facility of their choice. Doesn’t have to be a place with a USDA inspector on hand. But I cannot butcher my livestock and sell the meat to others.
You are saying it costs $25K to do what? Test your milk monthly? How often is the Grade A bulk tank samples taken? Even though the milk will be pasteurized. Arrest you? Beat down your door? Take everything you own? Come on, get real.
I love being as food and energy independent as I can be. I use work horses to till the ground. I grow hay and grain to feed my livestock. I have marketed at the Farmer’s Market and expect to get my CSA rolling soon. I’m building a barn and then the energy efficient home. I look forward to getting back to heating and cooking with wood as I have most of my adult life. But I don’t believe in some of the nonsense that creates hysteria and drama in others that are seeking the same dream.

[Heritagefarm]

Originally Posted by haypoint

Well, at least we agree about Natural news.
I used that site because they are the repository for such data.
Now we are into a discussion comparing the nutritional benefits between raw milk and a French fry? I never thought food dipped into scalding hot lard was diet food, but are you stating French fries will cause cancer? Do tell.

While a segment of tainted raw milk is the fault of improper handling. This can be improperly cleaned udders, lack of a closed system, failure to properly filter, failure to immediately chill the milk, improperly cleaned bulk tank or unsanitary bottling processes and temperature shifts in transport. But healthy looking cows, eating healthy looking feed, housed in clean looking environments still put disease bacteria into the milk.
Generally, strict sanitation protocol keeps the existing disease bacteria numbers at a level that the consumer can ingest, kill off the disease bacteria without contracting a disease or succumbing to the bacterial load. That "level" is different for different people and changes from time to time individually. Some will argue that such bacterial loads make them stronger, while others insist that repeated attacks on your immune system are harmful.

I have decided that if I were to sell milk extensively, I would pasteurize it. First, I wouldn't have much of a choice unless I didn't want to become large. Second, it is a safeguard to keeping the government off your tail, third, is high insurance for keeping people safe from either a mental meltdown or maybe a stray bacteria (heaven forbid).
French fries (at least from McD) are dep fried in oil that contains at least two highly dangerous chemicals. One is TBHQ. The other is Dimethylpolysiloxane, an antifoaming agent. Both are highly toxic. TBHQ is deadly at 5 grams. There is nothing in raw milk deadly at 5 grams. Both TBHQ and dimethylpolysiloxane are carcinogenic at any amount. Raw milk is in no way carcinogenic, and has been found (from numerous sources, call them disreputable if you will) to have anti-cancer properties.

[billooo2]

Originally Posted by haypoint

http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/consumers/ucm079516.htm
“According to an analysis by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause foodborne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than ill nesses involving pasteurized dairy products.”

Isn't this the one that was debunked as soon as it came out????....something about 'cherry picking' years......

Plus.....let me ponder the wisdom of statement like....
one is 150 times more likely to be in a car accident if one
rides in a car .....than if one never rides in a car.....

[billooo2]

Originally Posted by haypoint

Happens more than we know and seldom gets reported.

REALLY?????.......and your "proof"/documetation of this is what????

[haypoint]

Originally Posted by billooo2

REALLY?????.......and your "proof"/documetation of this is what????

Are you asking for documentation of unreported illnesses? REALLY??????

When there are documented cases of illnesses from raw milk, attempts are made by the Health Department to document illnesses in others that have consumed milk from this same source. Typically, many more illnesses are uncovered. These would be called "previously unreported" illnesses relating to raw milk. Also, typical of disease back tracing, there are cases of reported illnesses that the source of infection has been disposed of. Without the actual container of raw milk, this remains a "suspected case" not included in the statistics of verified cases of illnesses from raw milk. Your local Health Department isn't NCIS.
So, if most cases with verifiable proof that raw milk contained dangerous levels of various bacteria, result in a larger number of previously unreported cases, it is common sense that many other illnesses from raw milk are both not linked to raw milk and not reported.

[haypoint]

Originally Posted by Heritagefarm

Quoting a government website in this forum is a lot like quoting a Natural News article on a science forum.



Yet we cannot deny that there is a noteable difference between raw milk and a french fry. One will cause cancer later on in life, the other will not. One will not kill you immediately, the other can if, in a very rare instance, it is contaminated from bad handling.

Not to quick with your assumptions, Heritagefarm. I haven't researched the off topic fast food French fry, but I now know raw milk causes cancer. Surprised. Well, you just need to pay attention:

Cancer-causing fungus found in raw milk
The Local [edited], 7 Mar 2013

High levels of a cancer-causing fungus has been found in raw milk from a western German farm. The authorities in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia suspect contaminated cow feed from Serbia.

Before being pasteurized, milk from the farm had twice as much aflatoxin -- produced by the Aspergillus species of mold -- than national standards allow. There was a possibility that the contaminated raw milk had already been sent to dairies for processing, the state Consumer Protection Ministry said.

Until the milk has levels below 50 nanograms of aflatoxin per kilogram of milk it may not be sold. Current levels were around 100 nanograms.

Milk from cows which have ingested aflatoxin -- one of the strongest naturally occurring carcinogens -- is "particularly dangerous," said Udo Paschedag from Lower Saxony's Agriculture Ministry. Full story - http://www.thelocal.de/national/20130307-48387.html

[PrettyPaisley]

Well now we know where all this cancer is coming from !!!!
Raw milk. Who knew McDonald's had the answer all along???

[SueMc]

Originally Posted by haypoint

but I now know raw milk causes cancer.

Classic example of faulty reasoning! The milk does not cause the cancer, the fungus apparently does.

I would love to know why you beat this dead horse (cow). You either love to argue for the sake of arguing or you're some sociology student doing research on cyber interactions, or I don't know what.
You actually sound like you're from http://www.notmilk.com/

[haypoint]

Originally Posted by SueMc

Classic example of faulty reasoning! The milk does not cause the cancer, the fungus apparently does.

I would love to know why you beat this dead horse (cow). You either love to argue for the sake of arguing or you're some sociology student doing research on cyber interactions, or I don't know what.
You actually sound like you're from http://www.notmilk.com/

You are right. Raw milk doesn't cause cancer, the fungus in it does. Raw milk doesn't make people sick, the campylobacter, listeria, e coli, TB in it makes them sick. Guns don't kill people, the bullets in the gun kill people.

Somehow it is alright to say that McDonald French fries give you cancer, but not raw milk. But it is malicious to report that raw milk does in fact cause cancer, in this instance?

[MO_cows]

Originally Posted by haypoint

Not to quick with your assumptions, Heritagefarm. I haven't researched the off topic fast food French fry, but I now know raw milk causes cancer. Surprised. Well, you just need to pay attention:

Cancer-causing fungus found in raw milk
The Local [edited], 7 Mar 2013

High levels of a cancer-causing fungus has been found in raw milk from a western German farm. The authorities in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia suspect contaminated cow feed from Serbia.

Before being pasteurized, milk from the farm had twice as much aflatoxin -- produced by the Aspergillus species of mold -- than national standards allow. There was a possibility that the contaminated raw milk had already been sent to dairies for processing, the state Consumer Protection Ministry said.

Until the milk has levels below 50 nanograms of aflatoxin per kilogram of milk it may not be sold. Current levels were around 100 nanograms.

Milk from cows which have ingested aflatoxin -- one of the strongest naturally occurring carcinogens -- is "particularly dangerous," said Udo Paschedag from Lower Saxony's Agriculture Ministry. Full story - http://www.thelocal.de/national/20130307-48387.html

I did not grasp from the article whether pasteurization killed the alfatoxin or not??? That milk might have been toxic whether it was raw or processed.

I do believe people should be able to sell raw milk with rules in place like periodic testing of their animals for tb, random testing of the milk itself, just common sense food safety type rules. And, the buyer should get a "safe handling" guide with every purchase, just like what is on other raw food products. As a kid, my mom bought raw milk from a neighbor and even though their operation would probably never pass muster in today's world, that milk was dee-licious and we never had a problem. I also used raw goat's milk when a friend was keeping goats. I knew her standards for cleanliness and felt comfortable drinking the milk as well as offering it to my family.

We used to do all sorts of things before we "knew better". I added raw honey to my infant son's cereal at like 8 weeks of age. The honey warning labels weren't out yet, and he thrived. We rode around without seat belts and the the back of pickup trucks. Still here to tell about it. Bicycle helmets - would have only gotten you beaten up when I was a kid. And so on.

I think we have to seek a balance between common sense, basic public safety versus trying (in vain) to create in a perfect world where nothing bad can ever happen. The attempt at a perfect world comes at the expense of too much of our personal freedoms and too much money out of our pockets..

The french fry deal - health concern about saturated fat led to doing away with lard/tallow in the deep fryers. They went to hydrogenated oils because it was "healthier". Then they figured out trans-fats in those were unhealthy, so no telling what they are using in those deep fryers now.

[SueMc]

Originally Posted by haypoint

You are right. Raw milk doesn't cause cancer, the fungus in it does. Raw milk doesn't make people sick, the campylobacter, listeria, e coli, TB in it makes them sick. Guns don't kill people, the bullets in the gun kill people.

Somehow it is alright to say that McDonald French fries give you cancer, but not raw milk. But it is malicious to report that raw milk does in fact cause cancer, in this instance?

I don't know anything about FFs and cancer. Plus I did not say it's "malicious to report that raw milk does in fact cause cancer, in this instance".
I said you're guilty of faulty reasoning. The article you posted is clear on what the cancer causitive agent is and it's not the milk.

[haypoint]

Originally Posted by SueMc

I don't know anything about FFs and cancer. Plus I did not say it's "malicious to report that raw milk does in fact cause cancer, in this instance".
I said you're guilty of faulty reasoning. The article you posted is clear on what the cancer causitive agent is and it's not the milk.

The article I posted is clear on what the cancer causative agent is and it's in the milk.

I understand that it isn't commonly found in milk. But I doubt people are dropping like flies from McDonald French fries, either. It is current news and refutes the claim that was made that McDonald French fries cause cancer and raw milk doesn't.
Let me explain it, again. Raw milk is safe, but the contaminates (campylobacter, listeria, ecoli, fungus, etc.) are harmful. You cannot focus on the safety of raw milk without acknowledging the known fact that the contaminates exist in raw milk that can make people very ill.

[lordoftheweeds]

Originally Posted by haypoint

The article I posted is clear on what the cancer causative agent is and it's in the milk.

I understand that it isn't commonly found in milk. But I doubt people are dropping like flies from McDonald French fries, either. It is current news and refutes the claim that was made that McDonald French fries cause cancer and raw milk doesn't.
Let me explain it, again. Raw milk is safe, but the contaminates (campylobacter, listeria, ecoli, fungus, etc.) are harmful. You cannot focus on the safety of raw milk without acknowledging the known fact that the contaminates exist in raw milk that can make people very ill.

If you think that's bad, doorknobs have bacteria that can kill

[haypoint]

Originally Posted by lordoftheweeds

If you think that's bad, doorknobs have bacteria that can kill

Then I'd suggest you not rinse them off in raw milk you are going to drink, or at least keep your tongue off them.