Home outlet wiring question

Nothing cheep about it in it's day that was all they had . Your grounding system made you feel good anyway

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Yeppers, when I was being taught how to do wiring in high school romex came with two wires, black was hot and white was ground, the third wire didnt come along until several years later. Thats when the white wire was renamed neutral.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

Yep in my day too . And a grounding system independent of going back and connecting to that wire coming from the electric Co. white wire was worthless too. As in a rod drove in the ground and a third wire ran independent from it

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ha, I build houses for a living and thought I could understand some of this ... yeah right! I will be relying on my sub contracting electrician for a very long time to come. I'm sure glad I know a good one who keeps up with this stuff for me .... even if he won't work on my personal stuff at discount lol.

On new construction just find out how the inspector wants it done and do it .No code books apply here it is his way or no juice . Few years back the white wire and bare wire were on the same bar in the box one on top of the other . Then they started putting the bare wire or green on a separate bar but bonded to the box and the white wire bar also . All being tied to the electric systems third wire with a #4 bare going to the ground rod . Then they started wanting two ground rods or some did .

I did work in two states and there were four different inspectors each had their own thing they wanted .Near here there are more different electric Co's than carter has liver pills .Each different And never never tell one how the other one does things

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Thats pretty much how it works here too... the inspector is god, and a lot of things depend on his personal beliefs. It doesnt hurt to know which brand of liquor he prefers, leave a pint near the panel on inspection day, and make yerself scarce... that gets a green tag nearly every time.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

At least we've came to a consensus on this needs to be fixed. Now, what is the proper fix for me (short of rewiring)? I planned on picking up some older style 2 prong outlets and putting them in after work. This appears to be what was in the house originally. Since the house was built this way, it is legal and up to code to do this.

Also, on an unrelated note, which is more dangerous, wiring up a 3 prong outlet and just leaving the ground lug disconnected, or running a jumper wire like the picture shows? I DO NOT plan to do either, just curious.

Short of rewiring... there appears to be no "proper" fix. At least nothing that everyone here agrees with. If you read through the thread you will find several trains of thought, by various people who have various amounts of experience with wiring. I happen to fall in the group that thinks you may be "safer" with the jumpers connected as per your photo, but thats just me. Others seem to think you will be electrocuted if you do.... I suggest calling your power company, have them come out and do an inspection, (there is a fee, fifty bucks or so in our area) and then follow their inspectors recommendations. That way your kin will have someone actually officially qualified to sue when you get fried.

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

This is sort of like pushing the toothpaste out of the tube.....

Now you want to put it back.....

Rewriting back to just 2 prong isn't up to code either, once you mess with the wiring at all, you are supposed to do it to code.

Either leave it as it is, which may have been code at the time and is grandfathered on, or do it to current code and retire, pulling a 3 wire in where the 2 wire is now....

There really isn't anything in between, as far as code allows. Or your insurance will approve of.

Back in the 1950s a whole lot was ok, and safe enough.

In 2050 I suppose we will look back and wonder about the 'hazards' that were allowed in 2010.....

They don't want you going backwards, only forwards.

What you have works, but is not as safe as possible nor approved of today.

But going back to what was approved of in 1980 might not really be any upgrade?

The only way to improve is to comply with whatever of the last 3 code versions your local inspector is using.

It would be poor of any of us to say oh you are good where you are at, or just wire it up any old way electricity will flow..... Since you pushed the toothpaste out the tube, our only good honest advice is to say leave it alone, to wire it up right to the current code.

Paul

Yep and if you call any inspector for advice you may stomp that tooth paste tube flat too . To date we have had very few people electrocuted in this area most that have were caused by stupidity .
People fuss about tricking a two wire rec. into being a three wire while putting a 30 amp fuse on a #14 wire so their coffey pot,toaster,crockpot and microwave won't blow a fuse .Give me a break !!

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Actually, that's listed in the NEC too. It's called AHJ or Authority Having Jurisdiction, another name for the code inspector.
All NEC codes are trumped by the AHJ.
I think that's in section 101.

Leads one to wonder why they print a 500 page book no one reads much less goes by . I know one Cafe where the inspectors meet for coffey this is where most codes are decided on in our part of the world . I know use to those pesky GFI breakers were traded out ten minutes after the inspector left .

One electric Co guy said i couldn't build my own 3ph power converter but i figured what he didn't know wouldn't hurt me ,so i built it anyway

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If you need a three pin outlet install a GFI and use the "No Equipment Ground" sticker that comes with it. It's legal.

The neutral ground jumper causes a serious problem if there is an open neutral. The hot side of the line will then be effectively connected by the loads to the metal of any equipment using the ground pin. It's a real hazard, as an open wire should not cause this kind of problem.

Sounds a bit like a uncle of mine when he built his arc welder out of an old timey cream can and a couple of pieces of rebar stuck down though a wooden lid... he regulated the current flow by adding or reducing the water in the can. Wonder what the code book guys would have to say about that little contraption! LOL It worked well, and he used it for years without problems.

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this sounds like a reasonable solution to the problem, and maybe even less costly than rewiring the whole house. I am somewhat curious though if it will solve the problem of the hot wire being shorted to the housing in some way?

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"Nothing so needs reforming as other peoples habits." Mark Twain

There are Old electricians
There are Bold electricians
There are no Old Bold electricians

[slightly adapted from my time in naval aviation]

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We will meet in the golden city, called the New Jerusalem,
All our pain and all our tears will be no more.....

I'm living proof you are wrong or i'm almost alive .

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Obviously, you have not been bold enuff!

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All our pain and all our tears will be no more.....

I didn't bother to read though all the replies as they were getting lengthy. If everything was PERFECT, it wouldn't really make a difference either way. The reason for the separate ground is that things aren't usually perfect. every place a wire is connected there is a possibility of a voltage loss (with current flow). The neutral carries the current from the appliance back to the other side of the pole transformer. It should IDEALLY be at zero volts just like the ground wire. However if there is a little corrosion or a poor connection here or there (and that is not rare), it has voltage on it.
The ground would never normally have voltage on it, so if the shell of your washings machine which is tied to that ground is connected to the neutral, it would have voltage on it... if you happen to be touching a better ground, the current will go though you.

If for some reason, the neutral wire becomes completely disconnected at some point in the house between the outlet and the electrical box, there will be full line voltage on it (and consequently the shell of a metal appliance if the ground is tied to the neutral at the outlet).

While an appliance with no ground is not the safest thing, one tied to the neutral at the outlet and with no ground to the box is potentially much more dangerous.

If the equipment has a short and is connected to ground (like a washer on a concrete floor) the GFI trips. If it's insulated from ground and you touch it and ground at the same time the GFI trips. So yes it does address the hazard of a hot wire shorted to the case.