Home outlet wiring question

Well, right up front in this discussion we are talking about 120v circuits in what I think was a living room, not a 220 dryer four wire circuit in a wet basement with a concrete floor. Secondly lets talk about that live current on the "neutral" side for a moment. If there is current flow on that side at all times, and it is directly connected to the ground wire leading out to the ground rod... why dont we insulate that ground wire to prevent folks from getting shocked while mowing their lawns, moving sprinklers or otherwise coming in contact with it?

Connecting the neutral to ground at the panel box is really not all that different from connecting it in the receptacle box.

Again, remember we are not talking about a house that was wired with three wires, there are only two to work with and one of them we know to be hot... talk to me about the safest way to deal with HIS situation other than updating the entire wiring system. with todays appliances having the third wire running directly from the cases, I can see many more safety issues arising by disconnecting the jumper wire than by having it connected to the neutral wire in the receptacle box instead of 20 or 30 ft away in the panel box.

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I have to be blunt here. I hate that it may come across as a personal attack, which it is not. You do not understand electricity. That is painfully obvious. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you don't give advice about it that can get people killed. There is a big lesson to be learned - if you allow ego to determine your attitudes and arguments and do not let knowledge and logic trump it, your ego can and will kill you.

My dad built radio stations. I've been working with electricity and electronics since I was in grade school. "Connecting the neutral to ground at the panel box is really not all that different from connecting it in the receptacle box. " is so wrong that it is literally stunning. The voltage and current levels needed to kill a person are miniscule. It just needs to be the proper situation and someone with bad luck.

The original poster is safer with the simple ungrounded two wire system than a false three wire where the "ground" is actually hot. 220 is just a red herring because 220 is 110 vts on one side of neutral and 110 vts on the other side added together.

We don't insulate the wire going from the entrance panel to the ground rod because there is no current of the type we are concerned about that is flowing that short distance.

On a standard residential power transformer, the output side of the transformer (going to the house) is a coil of wire that is tapped at both ends and in the center. The center tap is called "neutral" because it - more or less - is supposed to be near ground potential. The two ends are "hot" in comparison.

If there is a load between neutral and one end, say from a space heater, the neutral voltage relative to ground will drift slightly. The bonding of neutral to the ground rod limits that.

What people may not realize is that there is no perfect "ground" situation with zero voltage. When a charged cloud with lighting passes overhead, the ground potential can be several hundred volts higher than normal. The key is that the entire area is at the same potential. As long as EVERYTHING is at ground voltage potential, there is no danger.

Why is the jumper dangerous? Take an example of a metal drill that has a three prong plug. If the coil windings in the motor are energized, the white wire is above ground. If that is then connected to the case of the drill via that green jumper, the drill user will get shocked if he comes into contact with something at true ground potential. If the person happens to be sweating, and using their chest to press on the handle of the drill, there is a direct route through the heart.

Bottom line, the jumper is stupid, illegal, deadly, and will result in someone winning a multi-million dollar wrongful death lawsuit if something did happen. Ego does not matter in such arguments. The only way to win the argument is to lose it.

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Just wondering if anyone can back up this major code violation with an article number from the NEC?

And just because something has been working that way for 100 years don'e make it right OR Safe. That is why things changed over the years. To make things like this, Safe, or at least safer then what they had been doing for 100 years.

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alrighty, I get that ego has no place in a rational logical discussion, and if you will note I have not commented to the OP as to what may or may not be dangerous here. I have only questioned the rationale of some of those who HAVE given direct (and so far in my opinion very wrongful) advise. I am not offended in the least by your questioning of my electrical knowledge, or of my comments in any way. It is my understanding that a single strand of #12 copper wire offers very little resistance over a span of 50 ft. (immeasurable with my handy dandy "lowes cheapy" ohm meter) To my uneducated mind, this resistance would be the only real difference between having the ground and neutral wires forming the connection in the receptacle box rather than the panel box. Please tell me what else I am missing here?

I would also ask what keeps this "deadly" current from passing back up through the ground wire to the drill housing and electrocuting our sweaty worker under normal circumstances, as I have never seen a diode or any other device that might limit any current flow backwards through that wire.

Ok, I see two points here, first explain to me how he is safer if there is a short in his drill to the casing, and he is grounded somehow, without that ground wire tied to the neutral at all? In my way of thinking in that event he becomes not only the shortest route to ground but the ONLY route to ground. With the ground wire connected as in the original op photo, is there not a much better chance that the power will seek ground through the copper wire, which is connected directly to the ground, via both ground rod and the normal ground system from the panel box?
Your second point about 220 current is indeed a red herring, I agree that 220 has no place in this particular discussion which is exactly why I did not bring it to the table.

Interesting.... where did that "deadly current" disappear to between the wall plug and the ground bar in the panel box? All of the ground bars I have seen appeared to be simple metal bars with copper wires secured into them, no magical current absorbing qualities that are visibly apparent. yep, no quarrel from me on that. but I am not sure what it has to do with that little jumper wire in the photo either And yet we see the ground wire bonded to the neutral wire (via the ground bar) in the main panel box. Lightning is kinda like 220 in this discussion dont you think? Very good, but please explain to me how he is going to be shocked one bit more than if that deadly current is passed all the way to the panel box and back up a bare wire, which is then tied directly to the drill case? The jumper of course would not pass code in todays world, and lawsuits are always out there. However, those things are not necessarily going to make a difference to our OP. In HIS situation, short of rewiring his entire house to bring it up to modern codes, my question remains the same.... with a two wire system, logically which method is going to provide him with the most safety? As you said ego has nothing to do with this, and neither do code books, it becomes a matter of pure logic and the flow of electrons via the path of least resistance.

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If the op was looking for maximum safety he would not be living in a house with dangerous things like electricity now would he? I got the feeling he was looking for a basic level of safety within his current situation. Of course having jumper wires from the ground to neutral isnt going to offer maximum safety.... but it may not be quite as dangerous as some would have us to believe either. If he wants the ultimate in safety... I strongly recommend he either have the power turned off at the pole, or have his house rewired and brought up to "current code". (which will be deemed unsafe when the codes are changed again next month)

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NEC 250.6

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...2~20020125.htm

As already stated, a common misperception is that the white (neutral) and green (ground) are the same because they connect to ground at the breaker box, but they aren't. The green wire should NEVER carry current, but the white wire does, if only a little.
The electrician above explained it well, but in technical terms.
This explanation might make an EE cringe, but it helps to make folks "see" the difference.
I like to think of electricity like a train track, or circuit. The juice flows thru the black wire from the box and back to the box thru the white, this is the part that makes their eyes roll, lol. That's really DC, not AC.
BUT, if there IS a problem with a short to ground, then the "shock" will travel directly to the grounding rod outside your house, in theory, and instead, NOT travel back into your hand while you're holding that vacuum cleaner or drill.

My apologies to all the guys who took all the hours of electrical theory to pass the NEC, but sometimes you have to break it down for those who aren't just stubborn, but simply don't understand.

This is a bit like arrogantly demanding that the professor leading an Astronomy 101 class cites proof that the earth is indeed rotating around the sun. If you have to ask you don't need to be looking at a code book.

As for YvonnesHubby. unfortunately, harry has it dead right. This is the only subject matter the appears on these forums where holding a battle of wits with the unarmed can be fatal. Sorry, YH, you lack a basic understanding of the science behind the issue, yet continue to insist that you are engaged in an argument, and that you have to win. I appreciate the fact that others have found my information to be helpful. I tip my hat however to Harry, who has been extrodinarily skilled in his presentation. It's clear the the Op is headed off to correct a serious safety issue, and hopefully the rest of us learned something. I know I did. Have a great day.

The "stray" voltage on the white wire goes back to the panel box and is "Grounded" out so it will not travel back to the "drill" through the ground wire!


With the "extra" ground you see in the picture hooked up "wrong" because it is hooking the "metal case of the drill" to the white wire--this will happen--

The "Stray" voltage on the white wire "still" goes back to the panel box and is "Grounded" out """UNLESS""" there is a shorter path to Ground then it will follow that---this Shorter path to ground is YOU should you get grounded. Hope this Helps you more understand!

The hot wire carries juice.

The neutral wire completes the circuit so will carry some juice back to earth.

The ground wire is hopefully never ever used, but can save your life or house if it is. It is a return line to bleed off electricity when things go wrong.

Both the neutral and ground wire need to be grounded to earth.

If you ground the ground wire several different times tho, you create dangerous loops that can make all metal surfaces in your house and tools electrified.

Think of it like your water system.

Both your hot and cold water lines come from the same pipe from the well.

But if you start connecting them together several times within the house, you will no longer have hot and cold water, you will have a tepid mess.

The ground, green or bare wire, has a very special task of protecting you, and you totally defeat that if you connect it multiple times to other wires.

Paul

Thanks for trying to answer my question Farmrbrown. Wharton you are and arrogant individual that must think your above helping other people just trying to learn. I wish that with all of your vast knowledge that you would be able to give me an exact article?

YH, what you are requesting with the multiple questions is the equivalent of a basic course in electricity in the form of an adversarial debate. That isn't the best way to learn it, and it certainly goes beyond the scope of discussion here. Your questions are easily answered, but are somewhat of a distraction. I'll give a couple of quick responses here but then am going to close this off.

A diode on an AC circuit limits flow in one direction only. It is useless as a safety device. If a metal drill case is not connected to ANYTHING, the only electricity (to speak of) in it might be from induced currents from the coil windings of the motor. Since there is no return path possible for those, it is like an inert bar of metal. Once it is connected to neutral by that jumper, the case goes to the voltage potential of neutral, which is ABOVE ground and has possible return paths through any grounded object. Inert bar of metal vs. bar of metal connected to power. Big difference.

Resistance in a wire. Resistance is not a simple figure that remains stable. A wire that is under load and heating has greater resistance than one that is at zero degrees and carrying no load. The amperage from a multimeter is just enough to allow valid measurements of base conditions. Amperage from a drill or heater is orders of magnitude higher.

Resistance:
#12 is 1.6 ohms per 1000 feet at nominal temps., so over 50 feet that is 0.08 ohms
At 20 amps of draw, you have a voltage drop of E = IR = 20 x 0.08 = 1.6 volts.
1.6 volts is not very much, but the situation allows for an amperage (current) that is well above that of a few D cells, and well above that needed to be fatal.

Thank you for clearing up the resistance factor for me. While you have been somewhat informative in some areas... sadly the ones I already grasp, you have still sidestepped my basic question, and no, I am not trying to get a full electrical engineering degree here, but my basic question is still unanswered. My apology for posing it in several different forms. You state above that under normal circumstances there is no current available to an appliance housing, and I agree with that. The thing that bothers me is not with the "normal" circumstance, but with the occurrence of a short circuit within the appliance itself. If that occurs, the housing will become part of the circuit with current seeking its way back to ground. I was under the impression that one of the reasons for the bare/green "ground" wire was to provide that path, completing a dead short circuit and tripping the breaker, rather than to have our worker provide it when they touch it. Is this not the case? If not, then I am even more confused than ever. If on the other hand it is true, would it not be "safer", although with some risk involved, to leave the jumper connected in the OP's current situation?

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I'm not an EE, and someone more qualified could maybe explain it better, but if it's ok, I'll answer the best I can, I did pass the electrician's course a few years ago, lol.
You pretty much got the gist of what the ground is for, the occurrence of a short, either in the appliance or somewhere in the circuit. It may not be a great chance, but it can and does happen. As a side note, I also learned the NEC code isn't written by electricians, but fire marshals and insurance guys, so that explains a lot of the extra safeguards.

The REASON that the ground shouldn't connect to the neutral at the outlet but rather run straight to the grounding electrode is to prevent that electricity from taking that other route to your hand.......or heart. If it can find a shorter, easier path to ground, believe me, it will.

When people see a 3 prong receptical without the warning lable dot, they expect there to be a hot, nuetral, and ground wire all set up properly.

The way things are set up in the picture are not currently legal, not to code, and not what would be expected.

If we just ignore the entire grounding situation entirely - it _still_ is not a legal wiring job because 2 wires under one screw is very very bad and makes it so much more likely the wires will become loose and overheat and arc.

So, if you are asking is this more safer than that in this situation...

It's like asking, is it safer to juggle flaming knives, or non-flaming knives????

In either case, the risk level is somewhat high, and merely putting out the flames stll leaves you with a great deal of risk.

The risk on the picture is 2-fold:

The doubled wires under one screw.

And the loops created in the multiple ground wire and nueral wire connections.

Each of those makes the other even more unsafe.

The ground wire is meant to bleed off any bad electricity, and if you don't actually have a ground wire then trying to fake one is not a good idea. Assuming the neutral wire works ok then you likely won't need the ground wire; and if the ground wire is truely needed that means the nuetral wire has a high chance of being compromised...

So, your safety net is depending upon the very thing that most often fails, to not fail.

Does that make your little short green bit of wire that goes nowhere worth anything? Only very few times.

On the other hand that little bit of green wire to nowhere makes you feel like you are protected when you are not.

And _that_ is the danger.

When a tornado went through here decades ago the REA was wiring up farm places with _one_ wire to give each place power. Lot of livestock and dairy depended upon power.... They came back as fast as they could with more wire shipped in, and did a proper connection.

It is easy to make electricity work; it is much more difficulty to make it work reasonably safely.

If you do plumbing and mess up, likely someone will get wet, or cold, and be put out.

If you do wiring wrong, that is a trap sitting behind the walls, waiting and waiting, perhaps for many years, might not ever catch anyone in 100 years.

Or it might be your kid or your grandkid that gets caught by the waiting, unseen trap.

That doubled up wire under one screw and that fake ground wire leading to nowhere is a risk. Both carry some risk.

Would you rather have a 2 prong receptical and know your risks, or do you want this setup hidden in your walls and folks don't know?????

How do you quantify which is 'safer' of the wrong ways to wire it up?

They are, after all, all 'wrong'.

--->Paul

"I was under the impression that one of the reasons for the bare/green "ground" wire was to provide that path, completing a dead short circuit and tripping the breaker, rather than to have our worker provide it when they touch it."

Yes, ground provides such protection if the "hot" (black) comes in contact with the case or fails. That is spectacular failure, similar to a short circuit where black and neutral come in direct contact. You glossed an important point when you said ONE of the uses. That is not the primary use of a ground. The more common uses of the ground are much less spectacular. To directly answer you, no, there is no circumstance where that jumper would make things safer. I rarely state absolutes, but that is an absolute.

Proper grounding has all sorts of purposes. It reduces or eliminates radio frequency interference, "buzzing" of certain electronics, provides a reference for GFCI breakers, drains static charges, prevents electrolytic action, and so on.

I agree, without the ground wire to the panel, we are dealing with several problems and the best way of dealing with them is to rewire the house to current code.... which will then be deemed "wrong" as soon as the code book changes. (which seems to be a constant) Or.... have the power company come out and disconnect the service entirely.

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Thank you for clearing that up for me. For a while there I was thinking my entire understanding of current flow through simple circuits might be flawed.

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One question that's sort of bugging me - what would the reasoning be (if you can call it that) of a person for wiring up the ground like in the photo? Was there some old timey logic or was it just the fellow not knowing what he was doing? It seems odd to go through that extra effort in the first place.

Agree the solution is a GFCI at the head of the circuit.

Easy to answer that the wiring had only two wires coming to the outlet. Hot and neutral no grounding wire. Cheap cheap cheap for ONLY buying 2 wires. instead of the two plus solid coper wire for grounding purposes.
Years ago many homes had two wires. BUT they were also incased inside of a metal jacket which was flexible etc. And THAT then was used as a ground to go back to the panel box. This does not even have that.
I know my old barn only had two wires coming in to service it. Well I started using water tank heaters etc. so I then put in a ground. I pushed a 8 foot copper rod into the ground the same size as electric companies use by the poll, and then strung in a separate wire to be used as a ground in all outlets etc.

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