Deadly herbicides???

I don't know a single farmer here that doesn't use chemical fertilizers, pesticides and fungicides on their 'money' crops. They just can't afford not to. With fuel being as high as it is, the need for constant machinery repair, and just the general cost of doing business, plus the time involved, a farmer can't make a living any more practicing organic methods. There just are not profits in it due to the high cost of organic methods.

One reason is because organic products costs much more or it's so labor intense to organic farm that a farmer would have to hire more help just keep up. Plus there is always a certain amount of loss crop to organic methods and unless you have hundreds and hundreds of acres, a farmer can't make a living with any loss. All of this cuts severely into profits and, with costs escalating just in the farmers own family needs, profits are of even a higher priority than in years past. He simply needs more money to keep up, and I really can't blame him.

There is a fine line between responsible farming and keeping a roof over your family's head and food on your own table. I know we all wish farmers were thinking more of those they are feeding beyond their own tables, but the fact is, when it comes down to their family or yours - his will win out every time.

I wish there were more cost effective ways to encourage farmers to organic farm; but, at least in these parts of the country, we're just not there yet.

I will add, however, that when it comes to their own gardens, most here do practice organic methods - both farmer, homesteaders, and just your usual backyard grower. Gardens are big here and you seldom see a yard without a garden. Again, it's just a difference in 'farming' and home-use.

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"Challenges are what make life interesting -- overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

Karen wrote “There is a fine line between responsible farming and keeping a roof over your family's head and food on your own table.”
That sounds like when there is evil to be done to survive, farmers must dance with the devil .
I may be wrong, but I think the farmer that started this post wasn’t interested in showing you the fine line between being responsible and doing what you must to pay the bills.
I see his message to be one of understanding.
When I hear people talk about the differences between organically grown and modern agriculture, I often hear misconceptions about herbicide use. If you believe that a dangerous concoction of chemicals are saturating the ground of our nations farms, I’d be afraid to eat the resulting crops, too. But if a real farmer explained that the stuff he puts on the soil is tiny amount and that it breaks down into harmless products very quickly, you might not see him dancing with the devil anymore.
There are ways to add herbicides to your tool box without bringing chemicals to your kitchen.
Perhaps if you knew that roundup would kill the weeds and not remain in the soil and not get on your tomatoes, you might use that knowledge and spray the non-crop areas of your garden. But if you have beliefs unfounded on facts, you cannot make choices based on facts. I am in no way saying you must use an herbicide. I just think everyone should know the truth. But when folks feel their values are threatened and such talk is sinful, what I say sounds like evangelizing.
The attitude of “Well farmers have no choice in what they do, too bad, I see why they do it, poor farmers.” Is condescending at best.
I'm looking forward to more farm facts.

I was really hoping to have a nice thread where I learned what small farmers actually DO, and why....ya know, a nice, informative thread where people asked our resident small farmers (because let's face it, no one on here is farming several thousand acres...so by definition, even our "commercial" farmers are small farmers.) what they did, why they did it, how much they did it, etc., and got answers without making any disparaging remarks or replies.

But it is turning into yet another "Oh, GMO!" and "Oh, chemicals!" thread.

Dale, Paul, the rest of ya'll that do this...if I have burning questions, I'll P.M. ya'll with them.

For now, I am going back out to bale out my barn. Ya'll have fun.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

I farm a 5 acre patch where my cousin raises a 1/4 acre of pumpkins for a fall school fund raising corn maze weekend deal.

He moves the pumpkins around to rotate the disease problems with pumpkins. Been doing it for 6 years now.

Frankly, it becomes quite a weed patch, takes a couple years for me to knock those weeds back down on the patch that was in pumpkins....

My sister also grew a garden somewhere on the 5 acres when she was alive, all the sensitive crops like tomatoes, etc.

There is a fella with 10-20 bee hives in the corner of the property.

That is real interesting to farm what's left of the 5 acres. I've never killed anyone's plants yet, no issues with the bees so far. I enjoy the multitude of things going on there, and look forward to working on that plot, very fun - I have no complaints of any 'difficulties' I run into.

My sis was happy I was keeping the soil fertility up, and the weeds down - the weeds wre pretty bad when they bought the place.

Talked with the bee fella once, said I don't spray that field for soybean bugs since his bees are there. He asked why not, doesn't bother them, everyone else sprays around there, won't bother him any.

Talked with the pumpkin relative last year, mentioned how I keep away from his patch because I don't know his feelings on keeping it organic - well natural I guess without the 3 year wait.... He said, heck, he doesn't care, just doesn't know how to get the weeds gone, doesn't have any equipment or knowledge, but heard if you put icecream buckets over the small patches you can spray roundup, and so forth. He's all for it if there's a way to do it, just doesn't know how.

Now, this little poatch of field is 5 miles from me, so I don't need to drive over there every other day, for the 4 acres or so of crop ground left for me. It gets interesting to pick a day the wind is right so I don't drift onto the garden in one direction, the pumpkins in another direction, or have the insecticide drift towards the bee hives. None of that would be right or good.

One year my sister's young tomato plants got spotted, I was very worried I had goofed. After some thinking and checking, I figured out the neighbor across the road had his corn sprayed, and it wwould have likely been some 2,4-D or dicomba in the spray at that time, and the wind was from that direction. I don't think it was my spraying the day before. Only time I've seen a problem, and it didn't really bother the garden, but I was concerned about it for a week or so.

I'm pleased everyone is happy with the job I've been doing, and encouraging me to continue what I've been doing.

--->Paul

I certainly don't see it as dancing with the devil. It's simply the difference between organic and non-organic. I don't see non-organic as evil but IMHO, organic certainly would be preferable if given an ideal. But my point was more that a farmer has to do whatever he has to do to support his family; just like in any other business or trade. Just as each of us do for our own family; whether or not someone else likes it or approves.

Where the fine line comes in is in our tolerance between wishing every farmer would practice all organic farming, but the fact that it's simply not practical nor efficient in today's economic demands. Therefore, the line between our personal wants and needs and what actually is happening in the real world. That line may be thick or minutely thin; it's up to each of us personally.

For me, the line is smaller than it probably is to most. I'm willing to sacrifice my wants (and yes, even my health if science ends up proving without a doubt that anything other than organic is unhealthy), because I feel for those trying their hardest to make a living. I'm willing to give in so that others can have a good life too. But I can certainly understand those who don't want to take that chance.

Now if someone else is convinced organic is the ONLY way to go; or if another believes there is no harm in chemicals -- then that line will be different for them and I can certainly respect that. But it doesn't mean I haven't been educated enough or had others make their points strong enough. I just means I've come to a different conclusion for my own variety of reasons.

IMHO, this thread has been a very interesting thread. Like Caliann, I've been interested in how farmers do it in other areas of the country. Learning is never a waste!

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"Challenges are what make life interesting -- overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

Karen, I've enjoyed your comments, and find them very interesting.

This one:

"There is a fine line between responsible farming and keeping a roof over your family's head and food on your own table. I know we all wish farmers were thinking more of those they are feeding beyond their own tables, but the fact is, when it comes down to their family or yours - his will win out every time."

Also struk me as odd.

I don't see a fine line between responsible farming and keeping my family comfortable.

I need to be responsible all the time. Like most farmers, I'd hope my family, at least some, continue on. Farms get handed down from generation to generation moreso than other occupations. Even in the big ag era we have, this is important family structure.

Responsibility is the core of good farming. It does not depend on using herbicides or not.

I read your comments as if we have to make a choice - be a good farmer that is organic; OR be a bad farmer doing the best we can to get along as bad farmers.

Your comment does sound like a barb.....

I offer this only as discussion, I'm not all up in arms, I am glad you made your comments and I'm not put off by you. Your comments help me try to work out where we all are at.

But, what I took from your comment is a feeling that farmers are just a bit evil because they have to be.

That was a little disappointing, and I certainly don't view it that way.

I think farmers work hard to be responsible, and put good grain into the food chain, at a good price, in record amounts, with as much safety to their families and customers as they can.

I'd be disappointed of everyone going organic cold turkey, and the many problems that would cause. I think that would be irresponsible, even tho in California for example, such ideas come up for vote every few years....

Again, black & white typing here, not in your face at all, and I really like the middle ground we have, the choices we have, and your good comments and expressing yourself.

What you view as an inclusive comment I actually see as a barb, and likely if I type first it would come out the other waty around. When we are not very far apart on our views at all......

Interesting.

--->Paul

I'm just not saying it well.

I don't see the issue as an "either/or"; but many people do. I'm only speaking of my own personal feelings based on an 'either/or' scenario - meaning chemicals or no chemicals.

People get all up in arms over no chemical usage and my point was more that today's farmer really doesn't have much of choice any more due to our economic times. Chemicals (in some form or another) are in use in almost every farm in America for a reason. That doesn't make a farm irresponsible. But some people believe it does.

I was just pointing out that there are many different methods and acts in farming. Just because chemicals are in use doesn't make that farmer a bad guy for doing the best he can to make a living.

My 'bad' guy line is different from what anyone else's may be. Chemicals aren't my line; poor farm management (as in the dust bowl days that are once again repeating themselves), mistreatment of animals or employees, etc. is my line in factoring the irresponsible farmer. Some may not consider those their line, instead the chemical use is their line. Therefore, the line is fine (or perhaps I should say 'blurred') when it comes to an overall judgment. Meaning only in that it's personal in what we judge to be good or bad farming. It doesn't make any of right or wrong; only what is right or wrong for them.

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"Challenges are what make life interesting -- overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

I do have a question. That spray/wind is a concern. As farmers, do you take into account the wind and your neighbor's land/garden when spraying? How do you handle that with your neighbors?

We do garden organic, but our property is surrounded on 3 sides by our neighbor's fields which he chemically sprays. We never know when he's going to spray and he often sprays when the winds are blowing in our direction. He's such a nice guy, but I just can't seem to get him to understand that I don't have a problem with him spraying, I would just prefer to not have the overspray on my garden.

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"Challenges are what make life interesting -- overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

A responsible farmer will make an effort to time his chemical application when conditions are such that the possibility of overspray or wind drift does not affect adjoining property or crops.

When I was doing custom spraying, many days I would be in the field ready to apply chemicals when there was barely enough light to see. By spraying a perimeter around susceptible crops, I could then spray on the downwind side of any crop that would be affected by drift.

One of the above posters mentioned using a bucket for a spray shield when using Glyphosphate. I have been using that technique for years to control perennials in my gardens. Have eliminated all of those except for Silver Leaf Nightshade and making progress on that one. Have used the bucket and pumpup garden sprayer to spray next to, and underneath tomato plants and have not killed one yet.

To limit the chance of drift we use special nozzle on our sprayer that produce a droplet that is less prone to drifting, they are called Air Induction Nozzles. In addition we have anonometers that we use to determine wind direction and velocity before we spray.

I have one field where I have chosen to sacrifice the border around a garden because I did not want to harm the landlord's garden. In all likelihood I would not have an drift but I don't want to risk it.

Jim

I know a guy that runs a big hog operation, not far from a big chicken/egg operation. He spreads dried and liquid manure as well as applies chemical sprays.
Often he works all night because there is less wind and his equipment is all GPS guided, so he doesn't need the daylight.
Chemicals are costly. Spraying on a windy day puts chemicals where you don't need them and prevents application where he wants it.
In most applications, the spray nozzles are 12 to 16 inches off the ground and don't spray a vapor, more of a mist. Wind swouldn't carry it far. Spraying your neighbors property can be costly, too. You could be charged with a crime and lose your pesticide applicator's license.
If I had an organic garden and a neighbor was spraying, I'd stop by after supper and ask him what he was spraying. Might not hurt to mention your conserns about the chemical and the wind. Then I'd look up the manufacturer's data sheet and learn about it.

We're in a pretty poor part of Virginia and I don't think I've ever seen a farmer around here with any modern equipment so it's still all the old stuff that sprays up a storm; especially our neighbor's. Most folks here use old Farmall tractors, in fact.

Since we're originally northerners and don't do everything the old ways, I think he thinks of us as yankee tree huggers...LOL. He just kind of ignors our environmental concerns. I would like to talk to him about it further, just wasn't sure how to respectfully proceed on the topic.

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"Challenges are what make life interesting -- overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

There's been a bee yard here for at least 30 years, on one corner of the farm. It's been through 3 different beekeepers that have retired over the years and sold to someone else.
Couple years ago in the fall the current keeper came to me and asked if I could help him stop a chemical problem he was having with that yard that cost him a lot of money that year. I told him I didn't think I'd sprayed anything different but I'd try. Nope, problem was, there was a house about 900' away from his yard and that summer they'd put up one of the little $200 pop-up pools and the bees started getting their water from it and the chlorine flavour in the honey was so strong he had to destroy almost all of the honey from that yard that year, about 10% of his income and he makes his living from the bees.
Took him back in the middle of the farm and showed him a couple of acres of scrub land that's too shallow to work, at least 3/4 mile from the nearest house in all directions in the middle of about 800 acres of corn, soy, wheat and trees. He moved his whole yard back there and he's happy as can be, away from the contamination of houses.

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The internet - fueling paranoia and misinformation since 1873.

Karen, organics is an interesting area all on it's own. In order to be considered organic, you must meet rigid requirements and I suspect that very few of our members could actually meet the requirements. If they buy crop seed commercially, there's a very good chance it's been treated, if they buy feed for livestock, there's a good chance it's also been touched by chemical. Very few members here would be willing to risk losing an animal to illness rather than give them a shot of penicillin and if they're using protein supplements, they're feeding a whole lot of interesting things to their animals.

I'll add my 2 cents,

I farm a few thousand acres and have to take the previous concerns into consideration all the time. We have a few fields that require attention, we try to not spray any insecticide, if we have a year that requires it we still don't spray it on fields with bee hives.
As far as drift goes... I wish I could say I've never killed someones garden, but that wouldn't be true. I do go out of my way to do what I can( spray on windless days or leave a buffer zone).
As far as chemical use our philosophy is to use as much as necessary and as little as possible. We do plant RR seeds, but have found Round up lacking in weed control.
Round up is still a good grass killer, but not as effective with other weeds. It's not a silver bullet in chemicals, but is a productive part of our chemical program.
I do have friends who farm certified organic, it makes for good lunch conversation. We farm differently, yet both have the same goal (grow crop, sell crop, repeat next year). He obviously doesn't use and chemicals or commercial fertilizer, but doesn't fault us for how we farm. There is a lot of common ground and we all benefit from from each others knowledge.

That is a big problem.

Most of us farmers try hard, but we need to do even better. And there are a few dumb bucks that need to start over and do it right from the beginning....

What may be surprising is the worst time to spray is when there is no wind at all!

That leads to temperature inversions, and other situations where the chemicals very lightly vaporize, and then slowly move somewhere, sitting in the air. That can really mess up sensitive plants, like tomatoes, cotton, and such.

A light breeze is best, the spray heads down to the ground, the droplets of water attach to plants or ground below the sprayer, and there are no problems.

Strong wind heading to you is a problem, of course.

When we have a south breeze, I try to do a round along the south side of my property, and with a north breeze I try to get a round done along the north side of the fields. Or more likely, when it is quite calm circle the fields so later if a breeze picks up I'm not so much on the edge. This makes a buffer to keep me a little farther away from the neighbors as I spray the bulk of the fields.

A lot of spraying 'here' is done by the coop. They have 90 or 120 foot sprayers, and run from sun up to sun down some weeks. Their equipment is set up to not drift so much, and they have wind speed machines, but they need to cover a lot of ground. I'm sure they get in a hurry sometimes. Mostly they follow the rules and work hard to keep things right.

We all need to work on this better, myself included. You don't need spray blown onto your property, farmer shouldn't just shrug it off.

Was just a discussion on this in the 'big ag forum' this week, one fella asked about it & kinda laughed at it, several of us farmers didn't appreciate his attitude on that......

Always a few bad apples, and even us better apples need to keep on top of it.

paul

Farmerdale, I've never considered myself "Open Minded" or "Conventional". I've yet to decide whether or not I even trust "Open Minded" folks. If I were open minded, I would be convicted of something strongly today, but if a smooth talker changes my open mind, I would be all different tomorrow, and who knows about the next day. Open minded is as over rated as "Tolerant" or "Unbiased". If you use herbicides, that's your business, especially as you wouldn't even be contaminating American soil, anyway. I look at herbicides as a chemical that you apply to a garden to kill plants, and a garden would be a place where you intend to grow plants. This would make herbicides the exact opposite of what I would want in my garden. Sometimes if it looks like a weed is growing with it's roots tangled in the roots of a plant that I intend to harvest, I simply snip the weed slightly above the top of the soil. I hoe everything else. Check this out. I live in Toone, TN. You most likely never heard of this town except for two instances. You may recognize the white house from the original movie, Walking Tall. The one he really wanted is down the road about four miles from my place. The other occasion that you would have ever heard of Toone TN is if you follow ego disasters. It is where many of the fertilizers and herbicides were made before they were stopped in the 1960's. From what I understand my area here is the first, or more likely despite what my old chief says, "The very first" one of the first uses of the super fund for clean ups. it was used to correct the problems caused by these conventional farming chemicals. They had made their way to the water table. I'm sorry. Did you already tell us that this never happens? Sorry, but it does, and the results are bad. Who would have ever guessed that the poisons called herbicides would cause a problem in the water supply? Either way, if you want to use the stuff, that's fine.

Another product is the defolage agent that cotton farmers around here use to harvest the cotton. I don't care how many people say that it has no negative effects. A chemical designed for the purpose of making leaves die can't do great things for the soil.

I have a liberal friend named Eddie. He is a good man, though his politics and mine are exactly opposite. He keeps telling me that I am one of his kind, because I shared a windmill design that an engineer friend helped me with. On another occasion, I helped him do a few things to get better milage etc. Everytime I say anything that might conform to an enviormentalist might thing, he says I am ione of theirs. I try telling him that honest conservation is a world from those pushing global warming, but to no avail. It doesn't make me liberal to see the obvious fact that if you have a location that you intend to grow plants on, and you intentionally add chemicals designed specifically to kill plants, over time the ability of that location to grow plants will at some point suffer to some degree. I could go on all night about my dear friend Eddie. Before my wife arrived in Lake Charles, I was working two days and off two days. On off days while Eddies wife would be at work, he and I would muster at the trailer I was living in and cook cool stuff all morning and into the afternoon. At any rate, I don't intend to use herbicidesin my garden, but feel free to use it in Canada, and feel free to encourage it's use in China, as well.

Bob, I think Dale’s attempts to dispel irrational fears might be aimed at the misconseptions you hold dear.
Open means able to take in, like an open bucket. An open mind is able to learn and listen, to see how things work. What you do or act upon is different. If a person were open minded, he could see and understand many things and gain a wide range of education and understanding. That person would be a hard sell to a smooth talker because he can’t be tricked into believing “new facts”.
Tolerant means to accept the differences of others. If you are open minded you may see why people choose to grow organically, yet accept the views of the rest of the population that doesn’t. As far as unbiased, I think that is rare in humans. Many aspire to it, some lay claim to it, but it is tough to be unbiased.
You seem to need just what Dale is giving. Educational information on modern herdicidess. I’m not saying you must go out and buy or use some, but your information is so badly outdated, you deserve to know better.
If agricultural chemicals worked the way you describe them, Farmers might as well use gasoline to kill plants. But if you knew just the most basic thing about Roundup, you’d know that it’s importance isn’t that it kills weeds. Used engine oil can do that. The important thing about Roundup is that it has a low toxicity to animals, including humans and it breaks down fast. It can’t get in your water table, it can’t remain in the soil.
The chemicals you talk about have been off the market for some time now, things change and keeping an open mind allows you to take in new information.
With my open mind, I am aware of a toxic site near my farm. An old Tannery that used harsh chemicals to tan leather. Super fund cleaning it up. This site and your town’s site are both far removed from what Dale is talking about, beyond they all involve chemicals.
There has been quite an evolution from when farmers snipped weeds by hand to today’s chemical methods. It would take a long time to explain it, even if you were to adopt an open minded point of view. Suffice to say that farming has evolved.
Chemicals have contaminated water tables. You are correct. But that is not happening on modern farms. Farmers are not poisoning their fields.
Do you understand that when cotton is defoliated, the chemical that is used quickly dissolves into harmless compounds? There is no buildup of chemicals.
Do you understand that the old way, moldboard plow and cultivator caused this country to send millions of tons of valuable top soil down the Mississippi, never to return? You want agriculture to return to that?
Many chemicals once used in the US, but now outlawed are now used in China.
Nobody is going to make you spray anything on your garden. But it would do you good to better understand the world beyond your mail box.

That's MSDS, folks, short for "material safety data sheet". In many states, users of pesticides are required to have copies on file for all of the pesticides they use. Most MSDS are available on line, as well.

I think this is why we have such a problem. Miscommunication. Living in Tennessee myself, it breaks my heart that any part of our state has been used as a dumping ground for chemicals. The same problem that Bob spoke of, is also happening in Chattanooga. But it is not farmers that have caused the polluting in both Bob's town case and Chattanooga. All you have to do is google Velsicol Chemical to read the grimey details of this company. They make chemicals, probably still making banned chemicals and selling them to China, but anyway, they are a company that would buy up rural land in the 60's and use this land as a dumping ground for hundreds of drums of waste from their chemical plants. The drums were buried very shallow and after time leaked into the ground water. Even in their own home town in Michigan, they have polluted the creeks up there. Even Greenpeace says this company gives all chemical companies a bad name. Bob, I am truly, truly sorry your town has had to go through this ordeal with this company. I can't imagine the sorrow of seeing the land destroyed and the worry about the health problems this spill must have caused to the people who live there. But. Comparing a 20 year massive waste dump to what farmers do, isn't fair and a bit misleading. I really wish we could have a discussion solely about how the farmers actually farm and separate the truths from the myths. I think most of us have done enough research over the years to have formed an opinion on chemicals. With all the reading I have done on this subject, it was refreshing to read on this thread, the actual farmers perspective first hand and what their practices are on the front line of this subject.

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"Being normal is not necessarily a virtue...rather, it denotes a lack of courage".