Deadly herbicides???

lordoftheweeds, it seems to be a recent happening.

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"Live your life, and forget your age." Norman Vincent Peale

I hear you Angie, for sure. I hope you understand me and my defense. I do not homestead the "chemical way". I do not farm, "the chemical way" either. I farm, and use a few ounces of chemicals once in a while. I do hope to share that it is a few ounces and not a dousing.

Again, if someone on here is a nurse, I sure would not go around preaching how they were dangerous, unless I asked them first if they thought they were or not. I know very little about nursing. Many on here know very little about farming. Yet my occupation is belittled. And again, when my occupation is under fire in other threads, I simply thought those who choose to check out what those giant sprayers are REALLY doing, would help them learn a bit.

I guess my main point is, if I did not feel compelled to straighten some things out about my occupation, I wouldn't care to offer information. But alas, my occupation is often lied about, and I simply want to share more information. It is much less a "my way is the only way", than a simple defense of my job, my chosen career. And, if by some chance I see someone on here targeting a person they do not know personally, and if they happen to be a nurse, and their personal occupation is being lied about, demeaned, and such, I would like to think I would leap to their defense.

Gotta run, feeding time! Going to feed my sheep farm raised oats, which were sprayed with 4 grams an acre of refine extra herbicide at the three leaf stage of the oat crop, to control cleavers, hemp nettle, and volunteer rr canola, so that it could grow un-impeeded, and yield to its fullest potential. That is 1/110 th of a pound of herbicide, on 2 000 000 pounds of soil, of which 90 % was synthesized by the plants, and the rest eventually eaten by the soil microbes... The sheep like my oats. I have to beat the deer and elk off it!!!

Take care all.

Dale

Not promoting, but I will admit to defending my occupation for sure. I hope these types of threads help you to see how little chemicals are actually sprayed. That organic folk do not have a corner on crop rotation. That a farmer who uses herbicides can still raise fine table fare.

I wasn't expecting to join these threads, and see so much lack of knowledge of chemical rates and such, so we have both had our surprises. lol

Cheers

Dale

Although I garden organically, I have enjoyed reading Dale's and the others post. I didn't take them as talking down to us at all, so don't sweat it guys. What most people do not realize is that most of the chemical use and misuse in this country is not by the farmers, but by the average homeowner and possibly by some homesteaders. In fact, if someone here was needing a questioned answered about a particular problem with a weed or pest and they were wanting to use a chemical for it, not everyone here is organic, these gentlemen would be the most qualified to answer with an intelligent and a safe answer. I would hate to think people would be intimidated into not asking questions by thinking no one on here uses chemicals and misusing a product they might have bought, which would be much worse than an honest discussion.

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"Being normal is not necessarily a virtue...rather, it denotes a lack of courage".

Thank you Annie for your kind words. I do appreciate them. I am very glad that I do not come across to you as a bully. That is great, because sometimes I feel like maybe I am, what with the text vs. emotion issue. It is hard to be gentle in type at times! lol

Thanks again, Annie.

wow those rates are really low farmerdale, I guess when they have to be used I hope all growers can be as responsible as you and take as much pride in there work. personally I dont want to eat anything that has been sprayed but I know that today it is pretty much needed with the way things are being done. I also found a canadian governement study done from 1981 - 1991 where canadian farmers had a 30% lower cancer rate than the general population.

When I was 16 I sheared christmas trees during the summer and my boss made us spray roundup around the trees we were given no protection and often on windy days. Every time I had to spray I went home with rash all over my exposed arms that would be there for days so always associated it as being pretty nasty stuff.

Also many of the hardwoods that had been sprayed in the previous years such as small maples turned stunted and looked like some kind of little bonsai tree with about 100X as many leaves as they normally would have but only about the size of a nickle each always pictured in my imagination at that age that was happening to the cells in my skin haha.

Chemicals, both herbicides and insecticides, have changed a lot. They are much more highly concentrated now and that is what allows them to be applied at such low rates. The amount of pesticide added to a 300 gallon tank may be very small but the finished product is often just as strong as it was when the same pesticide took 2 or 3 gallons of pesticide per 300 gallon tank. Pesticides are very safe at mixed rates but they are very highly toxic as packaged compared to those of years ago. Liquid termiticides like Chlordane used to require 1 gallon of 8% per 100 gallons of water. To make 800 gallons would require 8 gallons. Now I can buy enough termiticide to make 800 gallons of product as a dry product in a 2 gallon plastic bucket that probably weights less than 1/2 gallon of milk and is so toxic in that state that it must be shipped under a HazMat license. Once mixed, it is extremely safe.

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Dear Math, it is time you grew up and solved your own problems.

Since you brought the nursing thing up, and since you are one of the few reasonable folks on your side, I'll give you an analogy. What you guys are doing to us on the homesteading board isn't any different than if I went onto the alternative health board and constantly tried to "educate" those folks (of which I actually happen to be one of, but anyway) of the "wrongness" of their beliefs and feelings about alternative medicine. When they argued then I could belittle them, talk down to them and constantly tell them they were just "afraid" of what they didn't understand and of what I knew for a fact to be the absolute non-controvertible truth.

Pretty sure they wouldn't welcome me or my attempted "education" of them with open friendly arms. And they might feel like I was being pushy and rude and shoving my unwanted views on them.

People have a right to the way they feel no matter if you think it's wrong or not. Just like you have a right to your feelings and beliefs no matter what anyone else thinks of them.

Not quite the same, none of us defending the attacks on modern farming are telling anyone on this forum that they have to follow what we do on our farms in their lives. In fact Farmer Dale, DaleK, and myself are enthusiastic supporters of people growing their own food and selling their products from their farms. We won't sit back and let people tells lies or spread misinformation about modern agriculture.

Jim

I would like to take the opportunity to thank FarmerDale for the time he has taken to explain and educate, and for the neutral and gentle tone he uses in doing so. In my observation, he has been a heckuva lot more gracious than some from the "other" side.

I can't stand to sit by and let farmers get thrown under the bus, either. Especially when it is done with ignorance, arrogance and out and out misinformation. I mean really, what occupation passes from one generation to the next more than farming? So common sense should tell us that farmers are not out to destroy their land.

I would hope that people are homesteading because they prefer an agrarian lifestyle, because they want to enjoy food products that are fresher, offer more variety than what you can get in the store, and are produced in a way that is "kinder and gentler" than mass production, especially with animal products, etc. Because they want their kids to know how food is produced and have a connection to the land. Because of the sense of pride and satisfaction of sitting down to a meal that you produced most or all of the things on the table. Homestead because it is BETTER, not because you fear the other. Run TOWARD something, not AWAY from something.

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It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with the simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong.
Laura Ingalls Wilder

I don't think too many people that are not directly involved in farming really understand it. They make assumptions and most of those are wrong.

I don't think this form is for organic small gardeners only. It may have seemed that way because there are very few full time farmers or ranchers on the forum. I think that explaining what is in a large sprayer that you might see in a neighbors field is a good thing. It may make it one less thing to worry about.

Something that has not been mentioned is that you cannot just go and buy farm chemicals. You have to have a license in most states. These are not the ones sold in the hardware store, but the concentrated ones at the farm store. They are mostly expensive, a reason for the farmer to use as little as possible as his profit margin is very small anyway.

There is a huge difference between the family farmer and the international, corporate farm. The family farmer wants to keep living on the farm and pass it on to his children, the corporate farm is run by a manager or managers and will be kept as long as it is profitable or fits into the corporations plans. These things make for very different farming styles.

I

I think this subject is actually a very useful one to discuss on a homesteading forum. I used to work at a garden center and although I don't use chemicals part of my job was to help customers pick the right one for the problem they had. And to tell the truth, there were as many old timers with overall's on that bought seven and a whole host of products as the suburban homeowner did. Talk them out of using chemicals? That's not what they wanted. But to educate them to the right one and how to use it sparingly and smartly? That was so much better than ignoring the situation. Both for the person and for the environment. The use of pesticides or any chemical is a reality and the more we talk and learn how to not overuse them, the better off we'll be.

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"Being normal is not necessarily a virtue...rather, it denotes a lack of courage".

No, only that we are foolish and naive and afraid for questioning your methods and beliefs....

Hey, I guess it is the same thing then.

farmerDale thanks for being a spokesman for farming.

It's unfortunate if it looks that way to you.

That was not my intention.

A few people over the years have made unusual claims and disparages against farming that are just flat out wrong. The comments are hurtful, you don't see that I guess.

So I see it as the other way around, and guess that is where I have been coming from.

Admittedly my frustration has bled through at times, but I'm trying to be more positive about it, and discuss things in a positive light, not trying to change any opinions or ways, just be nice if a little of the far-fetched stuff could be straightened out? The organic folks shouldn't be afraid of the truth either should they?

I certainly am very fine with people choosing to eat and grow organic crops for themselves and others; at times I consider turning my farm into at least a conventional, or even organic farm.

I am not against you, your ways.

I do understand homesteaders moving back to the land will naturally be closer to organic, and will naturally be more natural.

That is a good thing, and a good thing about this site.

Paul

That statement wasn't specifically aimed at any one person Paul. I appreciate your civil tone and I've already told Dale I respect him and the way he's presented his point of view.

You're never going to get this large a group of people to agree 100% on anything. Especially on this issue and especially on a homesteading forum. People have their own individual beliefs and they are entitled to their opinions even if you think they are dead wrong. Opinions that differ from yours shouldn't be hurtful to you.

I think we all need to just agree to disagree because nothing else is going to work in this case.

I will say to all you folks who were kind enough to say I have been civil and such. It is helpful, because sometimes I wonder how it comes across. I am glad to know at least sometimes I am effective, in that regard, because it is hard to sometimes stay calm and not seem know it allish. I am glad several see the importance of this type of thread.

Kumbaya, and group hug! lol J/K. ha

No doubt, I would not recommend drinking, bathing in, or sipping on a long cold winters night by the fire, straight up herbicides of any kind. Packaging, and effectiveness for the user has been a very positive thing indeed. Less packaging. I use several herbicides which are flowable granules, packaged in a small bag. Refine extra, is an example. It is packaged in a pouch, and in this pouch are 40 gram bags of water dispersable granules, which you just toss in the whole bag, and it disintegrates into the tank, no mess, no touching, no splashing.

Some of the reason for lower rates is certainly the higher concentration vs. the older version. The other reason for the potency, is that chemists have created several new herbicide groups. A herbicide is grouped according to its mode of action on weeds. There are many modes of action. This helps to keep weed resistance in check, and some modes of action, specifically a group 2 herbicide, are often very effective. Hence these 4 gram an acre rates. Not necessarily effective because they are stronger, but more effective because of HOW they kill the plant. In a more precise and benign way. It is important to rotate herbicides from year to year, as you rotate your crops, to avoid resistance issues. Weed resistance is for me, the fault of the farmer who is not careful with his herbicide rotation, he brings this on himself. And weed resistance is not something to be feared: If one is careful in not using the same herbicide group year after year...

There is a place in the world for small family farms but small family farms won't feed the north American population which means commercial farming/livestock operations are essential.

I don't think that the original poster intended to shove any concept down anyone's throat but wanted to provide some basic information based on his years as a farmer and and explain why the larger operations do what they do. There may be a few members here who grow absolutely everything they consume but most are at least buying a small amount of supplies and it's a good idea to know what really goes into it.

Yep, both are good 'conventional farmers' and 'homesteaders'. (sometimes the same person)

But bashing others over the head with your information is not cool.
The bashing has stopped, and the conversation people have continued. Thank you.

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"Live your life, and forget your age." Norman Vincent Peale