Deadly herbicides???

Sparkle?

Rambler, I understand what you are saying as far as that goes.

It just seems like we're getting beat over the head with this stuff. A whole lot of people originally found this forum because they didn't like the status quo and wanted to learn to provide healthier food for their family.

There are a few here who are convinced that modern farming methods are the way to go and they constantly attempt to "educate" us for our own good. This is a homesteading forum. It just feels very pushy and intrusive to continually be harped at about this stuff. If people are interested in it they will ask questions and research on their own. You can't force it on them.

If modern farming methods are so great and harmless why does the op grow food for his own family in a more natural chemical free way? For which I applaud him btw.

Sparkie. Hi there.

A couple of comments. I am a farmer. I am also a "homesteader" in a very strong sense, and have been raising our own food for my whole life. To say the two are mutually exclusive is wrong. I can farm for a living, and grow a few hogs, chickens, grow a large garden, can't I? I have a lot of space, I may as well use it, eh?

I grow my crops conventionally, and my garden, half way organically. Why do I do this? Well, physically, it is easy to manure, weed, and mulch an acre or so of garden space. A field of 280 acres, or 160 acres, or even 40 acres is a very different matter. I am in an area suited to small grains production: I could try organic, and be over-run by weeds, soil loss, soil mining, and low yields, or I could farm as I do, conserving the soil, rotating many crops, (herbicides make this easier), keep weeds under control, build my soil, produce high yields.

It is not like 1955 anymore, when a farmer needed maybe 2 or 3 thousand bucks to have a really good income. Today, more land must be farmer per farmer. So farms have grown to a point where a decent living can be made. So as this happens, farming methods have changed.

Thank you for the informative answer to my question about RR corn and soy.

Obviously my concern is not that of a large scale conventional farmer. I am a mother and grandmother who likes to garden (generally organically) and raise some of our food on our place. We don't have a farm even, just most of an acre in town, pretty limited. My concern is both healthfulness and cost of our food. Food that isn't healthy is very expensive in terms of our life, of our ability to be productive, of having to spend on doctors and medicines. I'm not rabidly organic, but I do want to avoid exposure to chemicals as is reasonable.

I have done a lot of reading about the various methods of raising food and how it affects the consumer, but not so much about how it affects the farmers, so I wanted to know. I can see that the huge amount of money and power available through control of our food supply is going to attract rich, powerful and greedy men to control it, it would be foolish to think otherwise. I don't think the average farmer wants to control the food supply, they just want to grow crops, make a living and feed people as best they can.

I have serious doubts about the safety and quality of the GMO crops, I don't see that they are the same as crops (not just RR or just corn and soy, btw) that are naturally bred without direct genetic manipulation. There is an increasing body of evidence to show that they do not nourish the same way natural crops do, that the bacteria used to create the manipulation can cross into our bodies with unknown and unintended affects to our health. There are studies that show that lab animals can't live on GMO soy that can live on natural soy, for example.

I see reason to believe that Monsanto does have a stake in getting their products to the market and that they have funded studies that say positive things about their products and that the US government has not rigorously examined the claims made by the producers of such crops. In any field I don't trust the party that is selling something to do the research supporting it, that's not a good idea. Now, perhaps this is Monsanto bashing, I consider it common sense.

I have a much better idea of why farmers would use RR crops and other GMO crops. I know Roundup is considered a very safe herbicide compared to most of the others available. As a consumer, I don't want to be moved by hype on either side, its hard to know what is best and healthiest for my family, within the constraints of availability and budget. My thought is to limit exposure to GMO crops, pesticides and herbicides as best I can along with eating as natural and unprocessed foods as is reasonable.

We speak of the projected longer lifespans that we have over our grandparents, but honestly I see my generation (I'm in my late 50's) is a lot less healthy than my parent's generation and our children and grandchildren are less healthy in general than we are. My mother died in her 60's to cancer, my husband's father died of cancer in his 50's. My father is in his 80's and is quite healthy for his age - he has gardened his whole life, btw, and was raised on a family farm. My husband's mother lives with us, she's in her late 80's. She was raised on a homestead in MT, but hasn't made any real attempt towards eating organically that I know of. The issue of what our food is and how it is grown is much larger than the best way to grow a good crop, protect our soils and make a profit.

Thanks again for answering my question.

__________________
~ Carol

I do the same thing. Why do I do this?

Because I'm not trying to make a living off my garden, and because of scale.

I'll pick potato beetles off my plants because it's easier to do that than to buy the spray, get out the sprayer, fill, spray and clean it.

It's easier to lose some production from my squash than it is to spray for PM, borer. I get more than I need anyway.

With my crops, I need to be more efficient.

I guess I came here for reasons other than the reasons you came here. I was attracted to the TODAY part of Homesteadingtoday. I’ve got a lot of experience farming like grandpa did in the olden days. I have seen people try old and outdated methods and fail. I’ve been misled by shiny magazines that claim to have the answers to the problems with Organic farming.
I seek modern solutions to today’s problems. I’m looking for ways to market my free range brown eggs for above the cost of raising chicks and growing their organic feed and a hundred other opportunities. I cannot do it if I fill my head with myths and nonsense.
I’ve been where many of you now stand. I’ve marketed organic produce that I grew; I marketed free range organic eggs before anyone knew what free range was. I’ve milked cows and sold milk. I’ve grown hundreds of acres of crops and a wide variety of animals. Living the simple life is far from simple.
Through it all, I’ve discovered that nothing is all one way. There are two sides to everything. When people can only see their way, how can they adjust to a changing world? If people base their choices without examining or learning about the other choices, how can they grow mentally? How can they succeed?
If you believe that your chicken is better because it has no growth hormones in it, I want you to know that no chicken has growth hormones added. If you believe that Emu steaks are healthier for you, I want you to know that lean beef is about the same. But if you shun the truth and see me as against you and your way of life, you make me your enemy when I’m just trying to show the other side. You don’t need to switch over to GM corn. But does it hurt to understand that much of the current hype against it isn’t true? I think this thread is important, so people that embrace Organic methods can see the tradeoffs to that choice. It just isn’t as simple as choosing to use chemicals or not using chemicals. Maybe you could stem your anger against Big Ag if you realized most Organic methods result in more erosion of top soil and modern Ag methods greatly reduces that, with the use of small amounts of benign chemicals. A bit harder to be a self-righteous Organic farmer when you realize the tradeoffs. I doubt the OP was about beating you up. More like explaining from a real person with real experiences. I’ll take that any day over some faceless web site or magazine with an agenda.
I don’t want to assume anything about you. When I write about things you are against, please try to understand that I’m trying to show additional information and dispel myths, to help you make whatever choice you choose. We need to stop beating up modern farming and give up the false belief that Big Ag is out to get the small Organic Grower. We need to work together to build ways to be both sustainable and profitable. I think this thread is a step towards that ideal.

Surely this can be discussed in kindness and respect, as it is a very valid discussion, especially between farmers. Homestead gardening is really a whole other area in this topic as this one was meant to apply to farming.

Let me offer one, and only one warning for all these 'hot topics'. Debating is one thing and can give a lot of insight and presents both sides; however, getting personal, name calling of any person or organization, and putting down anyone, or making them feel stupid if they don't agree with you -- is totally unacceptable and will not be tolerated by the mods. All topics will remain friendly, informative, and family oriented.

Also remember that there is temporary moratorium on GMO and Monsanto discussions for now. Any further references to GMO and/or Monsanto will be deleted. We just need to cool down those conversations for a while and then we'll open it back up for discussions once both sides have taken a break.

Don't make us stop this car and get out to to smack any of you up long the side of the head!

__________________
"Challenges are what make life interesting -- overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

actually that TODAY part of Homesteading means doing homesteading today as opposed to all the totally modern ways of eridacating the old ways. I do think industrial farming is not the Homesteading Today way.

So, maybe some did not understand that trying to do Homesteading is what is trying to be done today, in spite of what people are trying to make it be.

I also, find it disturbing to see the ones of industrial farming envanglizing (What is "Evangelizing") to the ones that are trying to be more natural and old fashioned.

So, maybe some should relax their educational of others outlook.

__________________
"Live your life, and forget your age." Norman Vincent Peale

what are the spray rates for roundup? is that the quoted "180 grams" I checked Monsantos own website and it says the lowest rate for weed control is .67 liters up to double or even triple that and at 2.2 pounds a liter it seems like alot more than 180 grams.

Would be interested to hear how many applications each acre receives in a season of each spray,

Here is where farmerDale addressed that question.

Sorry about that!

If you've read my posts, you certainly understand I'm one of the worst spellers on here, and as I just got an iPad I don't hnestly know if I hit the wrong key, or it 'fixed' something it thought I spelled wrong on it's own....

Enjoyed your replies to me on the topic, not much to add.

--->Paul

You have been on HT longer than I have, so I respect your opinion. I didn’t see where the definition was posted, so I thought it meant a modern, updated way of growing your own, making your own, building your own. Perhaps some can take a cake of Felsnaptha and scrub out the computer section. Alternative energy has no place in true old time homesteading, either.
Eradicating the old ways? Have I spent countless hours breaking my horses to do farm work to eradicate old ways? Nope. But I did attend Horse Progress days that embraces the old ways with new developments. You might be surprised by the new developments in horse drawn farm equipment. Must I pull relics from the fence row to fit in with Homesteading the old fashion way, fearing that I might develop a desire for a horse drawn vegetable planter?
When the question gets asked, “ What is a homesteader?” It creates some lively discussions and the end result is that it is mostly in your mind. You may live in an apartment and grow a garden in your window box. You may leave an office and come home to milk your goat. You may have a sign by the drive” Farm Fresh Eggs”. You may farm a thousand acres. Hobby farmer, part time farmer, back-to-the-lander. Doesn’t matter.
Be very careful, "So, maybe some did not understand that trying to do Homesteading is what is trying to be done today, in spite of what people are trying to make it be." Perhaps your view of what homesteading isn't what others think, since we, as a group, cannot seem to define it.
To me it is being on a farm and striving for independence. I may do that by heating my house with wood I cut on my property. I may do that by raising pigs to sell. I may offer sleigh rides to offset the horses’ feed costs. I may learn to operate and repair haying equipment so I can feed cattle and have hay to sell to pay my taxes.
But if I can’t talk about using a safe herbicide to insure I get a crop of oats, then there is a lot more closed mindedness here than I’d suspected.
If I post a lie, even if done in error, I expect someone will step forward and share the truth. That is am open discussion. But when there are falsehoods posted, I am willing to dispute the falsehood and support my statements with facts. I don’t do it to troll, I don’t do it to pick a fight. I do it to educate, to learn, to help, to afford a better understanding of that crazy, complicated world beyond our driveways.
But it is easy to see that some folks won’t let some things be discussed.
It is a tough thing being a moderator. As with all things, we bring our biases into things that we think we are being unbiased about. It is good to hear differing viewpoints, but troubling when those ideas threaten your homesteading value system.
You inferred that modern farming is industrialized farming and it has no place in homesteading. Did I understand that correctly? Is that what you are saying. Make it clear. If I want to grow a garden in what is now an abandoned field, would my use of Roundup to kill off the grass and weeds so I could till it up, make me an industrial farmer? If, after I have cleared the weeds so I can plant a sweet corn field and I plant RR sweet corn. Am I forbidden to share my experiences here? I want to obey, I just need better guidelines. OK?

I think open discussion, and learning from others is great. I have asked on here a few things about hogs, bees, sheep, chickens. The trouble comes when things are put out there that are against a certain practice, and lies are used to scare people. When someone lies about my occupation, I will defend it with factual information. If I were a Doctor, I would do the same thing, so that people can breathe easier.

Something that bothers me, is the attitude of some, that some of us who share our ideas, are less of a homesteader because of our practices, than someone who thinks differently. It is common thought it seems, that being a farmer who makes his living farming, has no business discussing how that is done, and has no right to do so. As well, because I grow a couple thousand acres of small grains, many seem to think I shouldn't be interested, in growing a garden, raising pigs, sheep, chickens, recycling, organic methods, self sufficiency, or anything else homesteading.

I was sincerely hoping these threads would help alleviate some of the unknown, some of the fear, some of the lies. I was hoping they would be informative, so we can have more harmony, more mutual understanding. This is a very educational site. I have enjoyed learning about hogs, I plan to get a couple this spring for the first time. One example of many of the things I have learned about.

It is simply difficult to stand idly by, when my occupation is constantly picked apart, mocked, lied about, mocked some more, and questioned. When it is stated my products are "drowning in pesticides", I will certainly try to help those understand the truth. That is the purpose of these threads, to educate, to give people some real numbers, to alleviate unfounded fears.

I am almost certain, if I were to state that our friend highlands way of raising pork is wrong, (it sure is not!), that the hogs are lacking in nutrients, etc., he would be on here to back himself up. The same will occur for myself and the wheat I produce. This is hardly evangelizing. It is self defense. Sharing truth form another side.

All in all, I feel positive about the feedback and the back and forth on these threads. I would hope because some of us use herbicides, we are not excluded from sharing our experiences with others. Herbicides can be very useful on a homestead. So can a hoe, manure, fertilizers...

All the best,

Dale

The land that I grow rr canola on, would get one application of 180 grams an acre. And because of rotation, this would happen only every four years. You can spray glyphosate at low rates depending on weeds targeted, and weed size, etc. I have used a quarter litre for certain applications, because all that was there to kill were susceptible weeds, and small ones at that. A better place than the website, would be to download as actual label for a glyphosate. This is the detailed paper that explains everything about labelled weeds, precautions, rates etc. I just found on one such label, that the lowest recommended rate is 0.2 litres an acre, for control of 4 grassy annual weeds, and 4 annual broadleaf weeds.

As stated earlier, a litre of glyphosate varies in its concentration of active ingredient. This is usually between 360 grams per litere, and 540 grams per litre. IE, 1/3 of a litre of 540 concentrate is the same as half litre of 360...

As far as the higher rates, these are often used preplant before seeding the crop, or in the fall to control perennial weeds, such as quackgrass, canada thistle, dandelion, etc. And if you do spray for perennials in the fall, glyphosate kills the plants root and all, so there is long term control. Meaning this heavier application may only be used once in 4 or 5 or more years. I have land that I sprayed glyphosate in the fall, to specifically control some quackgrass. After 8 years, there is still no need to re-apply, the quackgrass is gone.

High rate: perennial weeds, once every so often:
Low rate: Annual weeds, every so often, ( for me every 4 to 8 years, as I rotate crops widely, and use rr alternatively with conventional canola, and LL canola)

My most common use of Glyphosate personally, is pre-seeding. Because I no till, I often spray glyphosate before seeding to control early weeds. Once this is done, if the crop emerges well, and gets growing well, it minimizes in crop spraying dramatically, sometimes altogether eliminating the need to even spray the crop.

Hope this helps...

She can correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think Angie is saying (and what I meant) is that many here choose to do things the old ways and we all have respect a person's choice in how they decide to proceed in their own life. It doesn't make them stupid, behind the times, nor wrong -- only different and should not be belittled because they choose another method.

With that being said, it works both ways. We have to give each other the grace to believe and do things as they wish, whether it be old methods or newer and more modern methods. Both have value to the ones who choose that particular method.

I personally, however, took this thread to speaking more to farming than to homesteading. We do have a lot of farmers here among the true homesteaders and sometimes the line becomes blurred; depending on how we interpret where we are in our path in life, verses what was said in type on a computer screen. Just different interpretations of topics, so let's all keep an open mind and don't assume the worst of each other.

Plus, if a topic doesn't apply to you, don't feel compelled to debate it. Just move along to another topic that will keep you happier so we stop being a know-it-all. No one likes the know-it-all who wants to appear superior.

__________________
"Challenges are what make life interesting -- overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

That statement is what I mean exactly. Farmers among the "true homesteaders". Tell me I am reading too much into that statement! I really hope I am misunderstanding that line... I hope it does not mean that as a farmer, I can not also be a homesteader. I bet I raise more of my own food for my family, than almost any of these "true homesteader" folks...



I am assuming the best on that statement.

Cheers.

All I meant is that lording it over the ones that don't believe in the 'chemical' way of doing homesteading or farming is going to work out.

Discussing is one thing, exchanging ideas is along the same line - putting down those that use the old ways, and being superior isn't going to work.

And while some have been exchanging ideas, others have been putting down and evangelizing those that don't believe in Large Farming so are being put down.

I've always understood this forum to be like Backwoods Home, Country Side , and Mother Earth News magazines. So the old ways are what many are expecting here.

It does not exclude farmers, or ranchers, etc.

And this was an off shoot of Countryside magazine a long time ago.

__________________
"Live your life, and forget your age." Norman Vincent Peale

I totally understand what you were saying and this wasn't directed at you. Just comments in general.

By blurring the lines, I meant that if I'm not farmers, that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to someone else here who is. We have to be tolerant of each others needs, methods, etc. by not putting down, nor evangelizing our points. Opinions, discussions and even debates are fine. Arguing our point by getting contrite, crosses over the line.

__________________
"Challenges are what make life interesting -- overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

I was around here when it was still an offshoot of Countryside.

At times in the past, some comments seemed very negative and mean towards my profession.

I think I've reacted poorly at times to that, as perhaps others would as well if the shoe were on the other foot.

I've really tried, this past month or so, to look at the issues, and not the person or people. To show my side, and not worry about what the other side has to say.

For me, it's not about what anyone chooses to do, how they choose to raise their crops and livestock.

Just hopefully a tiny little bit better understanding of the issues, beyond the one-sided view I used to see around here.

But certainly not that anyone else needs to do things one way or the other, up to them all the way!


Kinda funny story, maybe. Before there was Internet, I was chatting with a fella on a homesteader sort of Usenet BBS forum from several states away. He was very opposed to herbicides and such. That was cool, we got along great. He didn't even like the environment he lived in, too polluted, he wanted to get to a cleaner area. He stopped by one day, was very nice meeting him. While he was here, he rolled himself a cigarette, and as they were leaving, his wife mentioned that while he was organic gardening, he used his share of spray to keep the weeds and brush down along their driveway.

It reminded me that what we fear, and what we accept, and how we blend those into our actual lives is a very interesting blend. It never occurred to me that a smoker would be all to concerned about small amounts of pesticides, and it was an eye opener to hear he used pesticides, just not on his garden. A different reality than I had built up in my mind.

I assume all of us are a lot closer than we make out around here, and hopefully we accept each others hopes and dreams along the way.

Paul

I'm fairly new here but, I really wasn't expecting back to the land homesteading type forum members to spend so much time promoting and defending the use of chemicals and the GM stuff.